Fulham Away

[DE.]

1 hour ago, Stuart said:

Having five strikers (Garner counted six) on the pitch does not mean you will score goals. We have no game plan. 

https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2010/mar/25/tony-mowbray-celtic-manager-sacking

Celtic finished Wednesday's defeat with six strikers on the field.

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. 

1 hour ago, Ossydave said:

So Mowbray said post match that if he was fit yesterday Nyambe would have been 'involved'. Not sure whether to take that as though he would have started or if he just means he would have been in the squad.

I think he probably would have started beside either Tosin or Williams, most likely Tosin as it was a pretty big risk throwing Williams in so soon after he'd recovered from injury. 

[Amo]

>Played well

>Didn't have a single shot on target

Pick one

[RoverAbroad]

16 hours ago, glen9mullan said:

We need to beat Boro next week or sadly the tide will turn against TM. Given what he's done for the club, it would be harsh if he went through a couple of months of bad results and had the crowd singing for his head. Hopefully he turns it around or if not is removed quickly with a thank you.

He's already been through months of bad results. It's now 17 points from 19 games.

[47er]

38 minutes ago, Harry The Bass said:

I fall into this category - although one think I would say about Walton;

1. Very early days, still finding his feet/voice in the squad.

2. His kicking is a huge upgrade on Raya.

Overall - yesterday is another example that simplifying football down to sweeping arguments like “we can’t defend” has no value.

We are now two games into the season without creating a single clear cut chance, and yesterday I don’t think anyone can argue that it wasn’t our best front 6. (Maybe Graham for Sam, but you can’t press like we did with a 34 year old up front).

The reasoning comes down to a few key things for me;

1. Couple of new players, time to bed in. This also combined with new pressing/passing system as opposed to hitting graham with a diagonal to play Dack off

2. Substitutions. Both games I’m convinced TM got it completely wrong. Charlton we looking in the ascendancy until he changed it. More specifically Fulham; The minute he took Travis off, we couldn’t put a glove on them in the centre. You could almost tell from Bradley Johnson’s instant dip, what Travis gives us - pure energy and action in centre mid.

Finally - on the TM out stuff. The notion behind sacking any manager after 2 games into a season will never seem right to me. Doesn’t matter if people’s justification stretches back to last summer; the current context is we are 2 games into a season. Sacking a manager at that point would (in my view) be pretty much akin to blowing your own brains out.

Huddersfield did it with Robins. He left after 1 game I think, they finished 17th the season before. It took them 3 weeks or so to find Chris Powell (who then left 12 months later) who led them to finish 16th...

This is a club ran by a millionaire Huddersfield fan (Dean Hoyle).

Imagine how long it would take, and who we might get too.

 

Its not about 2 games!! 17 points from 19 games as said above. Its about not creating chances (though I disagree we haven't created any). We had 2 clear ones last week but missed them both. That's another problem, neither Brereton nor Gallagher are big scorers, Who's going to get the goals?

Its also about a poor defence letting soft goals in and a manager who acknowledges the problem but has never made it a priority.

Edited August 11, 2019 by 47er

[Atko's Engine]

Just now, Bbrovers2288 said:

Think it’s a big game next week, simply cannot lose or mowbray might start getting some serious heat. Personally I think his time is up already but for the lovers it might be time 

Agree with this. 3 league defeats to start the season with would be really tough to pull back in terms of making the top 6. That said, it's a marathon not a sprint and based on most reports yesterday there's reasons to be positive.

Jury still out on Walton, hopefully once he beds in & becomes used to playing with those ahead of him we will see his benefits over Raya.

Am pleased to hear Tosin & Del looked solid. It looks like any combination between Tosin, Del & Lenihan could be decent at Champ level, esp with decent fullback protection which I think Nyambe & Cunningham will provide. I'm not so anti-Bennett as others, but he's not a RB. Think we'll see JRC as the season progresses too from the sounds of things.

Hypothetical question for those there yesterday; if that back 5 had played against Charlton, would we have lost that game? My suspicion is not, but I'd be interested to hear your views.

As for mids, mixed reviews it seems. Am disappointed to hear Johnson was off the pace, but then if that was due to him & Trav losing steam due to being against a 3 then that's a tactical issue for me rather than anything against those 2 specifically.

I'm most worried about us going forward, which I'm not sure many of us had much concern about 10 days ago. We seem to lack a cutting edge / end product to our approach play. Without stating the obvious, we need to find a couple of good front 4 combinations out of Dack, Armstrong, Rothwell, DG, Gallagher, Downing, Chapman & BB. I think Oldham is a good chance to experiment there, I would certainly give BB 60+ mins as a striker & Chapman on the wing.

I don't think there's reason to panic yet, but there's work to do at both ends of the pitch. Get a decent freebie CB and find a cutting edge, and I can see us shooting up the table (especially once August is behind us).

[RV Blue]

Just now, Atko's Engine said:

Jury still out on Walton, hopefully once he beds in & becomes used to playing with those ahead of him we will see his benefits over Raya.

Sounds good, if you ignore the fact that he doesn’t have any benefits over Raya.

[RV Blue]

49 minutes ago, Harry The Bass said:

I fall into this category - although one think I would say about Walton;

1. Very early days, still finding his feet/voice in the squad.

2. His kicking is a huge upgrade on Raya.

His kicking absolutely isn’t an upgrade on Raya, have you ever seen him play? His first touch is also worse, meaning that it’s very difficult to play out from the back.

Big downgrade overall, and the Rovers fans who are slow to process things will realise in a couple of months. Just like they’ll realise that Tony isn’t the man to take us forward, 12 month too late.

[chaddyrovers]

I watched the game on Facebook yesterday and I felt it was a better overall performance than Charlton's performance. We pressed highly and close down much more. But didn't created a proper clear cut chances. work in progress for me

Williams and Tosin look good at centre back. 

Johnson got worst as the game when on. Travis shouldn't have been subbed off. 

Thought Dack was awful. I would like to see 4-4-2 next week. 

Its appears that Mowbray is moving on from the team last season and the style of play and team selection. 

Edited August 11, 2019 by chaddyrovers

[Parsonblue]

1 hour ago, Stuart said:

Everything is built from the back. Until that is sorted nothing we will change and we will keep conceding goals.

No use blaming Rothwell and Armstrong when they are deployed in the way Mowbray does.

Having five strikers (Garner counted six) on the pitch does not mean you will score goals. We have no game plan. The buck stops with Mowbray.

Getting back on the training ground will not fix our problems.

Yesterday, the failings were in attack not at the back.  That in itself is a concern because last week we are awful at the back and yesterday our attacking side of the game was poor.   I totally agree that we have to build from the back but we have what we have for the next four or five months.  It will have to improve by working with the players on the training ground and that is the manager's responsibility.  I'm not sure what other role you can give Armstrong or Rothwell other than playing in the wide positions at the moment.  I suppose Rothwell could be used instead of Dack but other than that he seems more suited to operating in a wide position.

In fairness, at the moment, there are no "Mowbray Out" chants to be heard and I suspect most are willing him to be successful.  However, chatting to folk at the services on the way back there are certainly more questioning the decisions being made - the substitutions in the last two games have been dreadful.  He appears to have the full confidence of the owners - for the moment - but like any manager results will dictate what happens next.  With the window now closed the only way we can improve is by working on the training ground and looking to find a system of play that suits the players he has assembled.  A move to three centre-backs and wing backs might serve us better instead of the rigid 4-2-3-1 that we seem to favour.

During the first 30 minutes of the game yesterday we looked better in terms of possession but never really threatened the goal - the final ball being dreadful.  When Armstrong and Rothwell continually hit their crosses against the first defender that's down to them rather than to do with the position they are playing.  That could and should be improved on the training ground.

I agree the buck stops with the manager.  The acquisition of Brereton and Gallagher was a gamble that may well bring him down and I don't believe replacing Raya with Walton will do him any favours in the long run.

I certainly don't want Mowbray potted but there is clearly work to be done with these players on the training ground to improve both attack and defence. 

[Atko's Engine]

Just now, RV Blue said:

Sounds good, if you ignore the fact that he doesn’t have any benefits over Raya.

Far too early to make such a finite judgment call on him IMO RV. He had our worst possible defence ahead of him v Charlton yet made 2 good saves after bad defensive errors, and yesterday he was beaten by a worldie albeit he COULD have saved the second (though all shots COULD be saved theoretically).

I thought he looked ok against Charlton, enough on here have said he wasn't to blame yesterday that says he at least deserves the benefit of any doubt this far.

[CambridgeRover]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

I watched the game on Facebook yesterday and I felt it was a better overall performance than Charlton's performance. We pressed highly and close down much more. But didn't created a proper clear cut chances. work in progress for me

Williams and Tosin look good at centre back. 

Johnson got worst as the game when on. Travis shouldn't have been subbed off. 

Thought Dack was awful. I would like to see 4-4-2 next week. 

Its appears that Mowbray is moving on from the team last season and the style of play and team selection. 

Absolutely disagree with Dack being awful. I was at the game and thought he was by far our best attacking option. When Armstrong and Rothell were not offering anything it was Dack leading the way forward. Particularly in the first half he was superb

[DE.]

3 minutes ago, Parsonblue said:

I certainly don't want Mowbray potted but there is clearly work to be done with these players on the training ground to improve both attack and defence. 

Problem is Parson I can't think of a single player who has significantly improved under our current manager and coaching staff since we got promoted out of League 1.

Raya - declined to the point the manager was openly criticising him and was eventually sold.

Nyambe - has somehow ended up behind Bennett in the pecking order.

Bennett - being repeatedly exposed at RB with countless mistakes.

Lenihan - lapses in concentration, has had injuries which won't have helped.

Mulgrew - much like Raya, declined to the point he was totally dropped in March and then loaned out last week.

Bell - still looks like a League 1 player.

Williams - poor at LB, has looked decent at CB but only played a handful of games in that position.

Travis - has progressively been less impactful since his introduction to the first team. Has maintained a decent level of performance but hasn't exactly kicked on. 

Evans - one of our highest paid players is a bench warmer.

Smallwood - position usurped by Travis after numerous poor performances, now nowhere near the first team.

Armstrong - consistent performance levels, but can't say he's improved since he arrived.

Rothwell - great end to the previous season, dropped for the first game of this season.

Brereton - no comment required.

Dack - blows hot and cold. Seems to struggle to get into games without Graham in the team.

Graham - has maintained consistent levels of performance.

I could be missing somebody out, but I can't think of one player that improved  last season. A lot of them seemed to regress if anything. If we're pinning our hopes on Mowbray sorting this out on the training ground I think we are in for a long season.

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by DE.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

1 hour ago, Bbrovers2288 said:

Think it’s a big game next week, simply cannot lose or mowbray might start getting some serious heat. Personally I think his time is up already but for the lovers it might be time 

Why do you think his time is up ? Personally don't think he is the perfect manager - but excluding his lack of ruthlessness with certain players (and blind spot over centre half) - I can see at times what he is trying to do.

I do wonder how much pressure he is under from DJ - not heard some of his interviews recently (I don't rely on out of context sound bites) - but some have mentioned a certain tetchiness. Possibly the owners are lining up DJ if we don't start well - and Mowbray is aware of this ? What is certain - given our fan base and debts - he can't really complain about support from the owners.

[Stuart]

Just now, Parsonblue said:

Yesterday, the failings were in attack not at the back.  That in itself is a concern because last week we are awful at the back and yesterday our attacking side of the game was poor.   I totally agree that we have to build from the back but we have what we have for the next four or five months.  It will have to improve by working with the players on the training ground and that is the manager's responsibility.  I'm not sure what other role you can give Armstrong or Rothwell other than playing in the wide positions at the moment.  I suppose Rothwell could be used instead of Dack but other than that he seems more suited to operating in a wide position.

In fairness, at the moment, there are no "Mowbray Out" chants to be heard and I suspect most are willing him to be successful.  However, chatting to folk at the services on the way back there are certainly more questioning the decisions being made - the substitutions in the last two games have been dreadful.  He appears to have the full confidence of the owners - for the moment - but like any manager results will dictate what happens next.  With the window now closed the only way we can improve is by working on the training ground and looking to find a system of play that suits the players he has assembled.  A move to three centre-backs and wing backs might serve us better instead of the rigid 4-2-3-1 that we seem to favour.

During the first 30 minutes of the game yesterday we looked better in terms of possession but never really threatened the goal - the final ball being dreadful.  When Armstrong and Rothwell continually hit their crosses against the first defender that's down to them rather than to do with the position they are playing.  That could and should be improved on the training ground.

I agree the buck stops with the manager.  The acquisition of Brereton and Gallagher was a gamble that may well bring him down and I don't believe replacing Raya with Walton will do him any favours in the long run.

I certainly don't want Mowbray potted but there is clearly work to be done with these players on the training ground to improve both attack and defence. 

We have what we have for the next 4-5 months? The window has only just closed!

We will not overcome our problems, let alone start winning games, by having Armstrong and Rothwell (or whichever non-winger he plays out wide) practise crosses. If our game is to be built on crosses we should have bought wingers instead of centre midfielders and forwards.

As you say though, the substitutions yesterday were questionable and in my view he had completely lost the plot and went into kitchen sink mode. That can have merits but the personal involved made us more negative as a team. Bell for Downing? Travis off? Rothwell off?

His loyalty to Bennett is going to be his undoing. If Nyambe isn’t up to it then he should have targeted a right back. We weren’t able to move Smallwood or Evans on but we still bought Johnson. He seems to value versatility but in my view that means jacks of all trades and masters of none.

[DE.]

Not trying to go into conspiracy territory here, but I do wonder if the owners have demanded that Gallagher play full matches unless he absolutely cannot. Against Charlton he was clearly tiring but instead of bringing him off, Mowbray pushed him over to the right wing and instead put Graham on for Armstrong. Yesterday the obvious choice seemed to be a like-for-like swap with Gallagher/Graham, but instead bafflingly Travis is the one hooked. Hopefully I'm just seeing things that aren't there but I do find it odd.

[TruRover]

Tosin and Williams I thought we’re pretty impressive, and when Cunningham, Lenihan and (hopefully) Nyambe, I think TM will stick with Bennett ?, come back in our back 4 will look alright. However thanks to some really poor management an injury or two, as we already have with Lenihan, could leave us extremely vulnerable. Aswell as this Walton has looked poor and unconfident, after selling Raya in order to get a better keeper it seems we have really messed up. 

One of my biggest concerns is that not only do we have defensive issues, we seem unable to create any chances in attack. Over the past 2 games we have looked so so predictable. And that is an issue when we have players such as Armstrong, Rothwell and dack, all creative players who can run with the ball, to me that points to the way the manager sets us up. On top of that I think we lack natural wide players who give us width and creativity, we have players who have got that but they are naturally central players who drift inside. It leaves us unbalanced, especially as our fullback are awful and don’t provide us with any extra quality out wide.

We made massive mistakes in this window, we had a squad ready to challenge, it just needed some plugs to be filled by some high quality additions. We should of cleared the dead wood who are on high wages to help finance this and used our excelling academy players such as Butterworth, Chapman, JRC, Magloire and Buckley in order that we didn’t need to spend money on old squad utility players such as downing so that we had more of a budget to spend on the key areas that needed strengthening. I would much rather see the academy lads on the bench than Bennett, downing and Evans. Of course I’m not saying we should get rid of all experience, I’m just pointing out that we are not making use of our promising youngsters as we seem to scared to give them a chance. And I reckon we might regret that as they could easily end up moving on and excelling else where. 

I appreciate what TM has done for the club I really do, but we need someone who can take us to the next level. In many ways having the tough run of fixtures might work to our favour if it ends up with us getting a new gaffer. Though that’s risky as u never know what the venkys are gonna do with appointments. Next month or so will be important for our season, and for the future of TM and strangely it may be in our best interests if it goes badly. 

 

 

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

7 minutes ago, Parsonblue said:

Yesterday, the failings were in attack not at the back.  That in itself is a concern because last week we are awful at the back and yesterday our attacking side of the game was poor.   I totally agree that we have to build from the back but we have what we have for the next four or five months.  It will have to improve by working with the players on the training ground and that is the manager's responsibility.  I'm not sure what other role you can give Armstrong or Rothwell other than playing in the wide positions at the moment.  I suppose Rothwell could be used instead of Dack but other than that he seems more suited to operating in a wide position.

In fairness, at the moment, there are no "Mowbray Out" chants to be heard and I suspect most are willing him to be successful.  However, chatting to folk at the services on the way back there are certainly more questioning the decisions being made - the substitutions in the last two games have been dreadful.  He appears to have the full confidence of the owners - for the moment - but like any manager results will dictate what happens next.  With the window now closed the only way we can improve is by working on the training ground and looking to find a system of play that suits the players he has assembled.  A move to three centre-backs and wing backs might serve us better instead of the rigid 4-2-3-1 that we seem to favour.

During the first 30 minutes of the game yesterday we looked better in terms of possession but never really threatened the goal - the final ball being dreadful.  When Armstrong and Rothwell continually hit their crosses against the first defender that's down to them rather than to do with the position they are playing.  That could and should be improved on the training ground.

I agree the buck stops with the manager.  The acquisition of Brereton and Gallagher was a gamble that may well bring him down and I don't believe replacing Raya with Walton will do him any favours in the long run.

I certainly don't want Mowbray potted but there is clearly work to be done with these players on the training ground to improve both attack and defence. 

Just one comment Parson. If you've come through various academies , youth teams, and first teams and you still can't cross a ball what have you been doing all that time ? I could cross a ball stood still or on the run with either foot, driven balls, floaters, chips etc by the time I was 17.

[RV Blue]

16 minutes ago, Parsonblue said:

Yesterday, the failings were in attack not at the back.  That in itself is a concern because last week we are awful at the back and yesterday our attacking side of the game was poor.   I totally agree that we have to build from the back but we have what we have for the next four or five months.  It will have to improve by working with the players on the training ground and that is the manager's responsibility.  I'm not sure what other role you can give Armstrong or Rothwell other than playing in the wide positions at the moment.  I suppose Rothwell could be used instead of Dack but other than that he seems more suited to operating in a wide position.

In fairness, at the moment, there are no "Mowbray Out" chants to be heard and I suspect most are willing him to be successful.  However, chatting to folk at the services on the way back there are certainly more questioning the decisions being made - the substitutions in the last two games have been dreadful.  He appears to have the full confidence of the owners - for the moment - but like any manager results will dictate what happens next.  With the window now closed the only way we can improve is by working on the training ground and looking to find a system of play that suits the players he has assembled.  A move to three centre-backs and wing backs might serve us better instead of the rigid 4-2-3-1 that we seem to favour.

During the first 30 minutes of the game yesterday we looked better in terms of possession but never really threatened the goal - the final ball being dreadful.  When Armstrong and Rothwell continually hit their crosses against the first defender that's down to them rather than to do with the position they are playing.  That could and should be improved on the training ground.

I agree the buck stops with the manager.  The acquisition of Brereton and Gallagher was a gamble that may well bring him down and I don't believe replacing Raya with Walton will do him any favours in the long run.

I certainly don't want Mowbray potted but there is clearly work to be done with these players on the training ground to improve both attack and defence. 

When Parson is being as critical as this, the end is nigh.

[davulsukur]

7 hours ago, Mike E said:

I'm going to desperately cling to the fact that last time we lost the first two games of the season, we were promoted.

Time before that though......

[philipl]

I don't know how many times Armstrong got the ball in promising positions but apart from the daisy cutter going narrowly wide at the start of the second half, there was no end product and his decision making awful.

He needs bringing inside or dropping for Chapman.

The ref, especially second half, was the worst homer I have seen in a very long time.

[Leonard Venkhater]

8 minutes ago, DE. said:

Not trying to go into conspiracy territory here, but I do wonder if the owners have demanded that Gallagher play full matches unless he absolutely cannot. Against Charlton he was clearly tiring but instead of bringing him off, Mowbray pushed him over to the right wing and instead put Graham on for Armstrong. Yesterday the obvious choice seemed to be a like-for-like swap with Gallagher/Graham, but instead bafflingly Travis is the one hooked. Hopefully I'm just seeing things that aren't there but I do find it odd.

I have wondered a similar thing. They haven't insisted with Brereton though...

[Leonard Venkhater]

Just now, philipl said:

I don't know how many times Armstrong got the ball in promising positions but apart from the daisy cutter going narrowly wide at the start of the second half, there was no end product and his decision making awful.

He needs bringing inside or dropping for Chapman.

The ref, especially second half, was the worst homer I have seen in a very long time.

Armstrong has delighted me for long enough. No end product. Garner pretty much said the same on the radio..

[Bbrovers2288]

13 minutes ago, DavidMailsTightPerm said:

Why do you think his time is up ? Personally don't think he is the perfect manager - but excluding his lack of ruthlessness with certain players (and blind spot over centre half) - I can see at times what he is trying to do.

I do wonder how much pressure he is under from DJ - not heard some of his interviews recently (I don't rely on out of context sound bites) - but some have mentioned a certain tetchiness. Possibly the owners are lining up DJ if we don't start well - and Mowbray is aware of this ? What is certain - given our fan base and debts - he can't really complain about support from the owners.

Not going to lie to you, I was never overly keen on his appointment. I live in Scotland and his reputation up here is of a joke figure after his disaster at Celtic. Not to mention his poor spell at Coventry subsequently. I just don’t see him as an attractive appointment. He in turn took us down- yes it was a big ask but he could’ve pulled it off being a bit braver. He got us up but I would argue any average manager would’ve got our squad up that season- I don’t buy the look at Sunderland , Leeds argument. It’s a poor league and with even a bit of know how and money you can get out it. Last season he blew the transfer windows, having got us in a position to challenge top 6 he threw it away. He has never sorted our defence which has been lacking since early bowyer days. His tactics are defensive and unadventurous. His substitutions never seem to work. For all the nonsense that he likes to play good football I see nothing but hoofball the last few seasons. He shows blind loyalty to players whose talent don’t deserve nor warrant it. He can’t attract players a bigger name would. For some reason he hasn’t started European scouting until recently. Which to me says he is a 90s dinosaur of a manager. If you look at the top teams in the champ and lower end prem, most have a foreign manager with a good background at a top club and bring new methods and ideas or young up and coming managers who are hungry and passionate. Tone just stands by showing no passion and even his voice his monotone, it’s doesnt excite or grab me. 

So yea that pretty much sums up why I don’t rate him.

oh and we have lost our first two games and 2019 has been a disaster in terms of results generally 

[JBiz]

54 minutes ago, RV Blue said:

His kicking absolutely isn’t an upgrade on Raya, have you ever seen him play? His first touch is also worse, meaning that it’s very difficult to play out from the back.

Big downgrade overall, and the Rovers fans who are slow to process things will realise in a couple of months. Just like they’ll realise that Tony isn’t the man to take us forward, 12 month too late.

I watched Raya for a few seasons and I never thought he was that bad, however he did put one in the stand every game.

Waltons kicking from hand/GKs have looked on target so far to me, albeit in two games only.

[den]

10 minutes ago, philipl said:

I don't know how many times Armstrong got the ball in promising positions but apart from the daisy cutter going narrowly wide at the start of the second half, there was no end product and his decision making awful.

He needs bringing inside or dropping for Chapman.

The ref, especially second half, was the worst homer I have seen in a very long time.

To be honest Philip, I don’t see anything in Armstrong that tells me he is a talent. Never have done and doubt I ever will.