West Brom Away

[arbitro]

Just now, david brent said:

Watched it on a live stream and literally struggled to tell the 2 teams apart with a ridiculous colour clash! I don’t know if it looked worse on tv than in the ground. It may well have helped though given their player passed it to Dack for the opener. 

I suspect the grey kit was the best option of a bad bunch as the other 2 kits would have clashed with Albion’s as well. 

I thought the ref favoured Albion - I didn’t  think there was anything wrong with the disallowed equaliser - the ref couldn’t wait to give that decision. 

On the basis of the first 6 games it looks like a season of mid table again - perhaps with the odd run to get us on the brink of the play offs. I hope I’m wrong. Disappointing as the standard of the Championship really isn’t great this season. Albion are nothing special and are seen as one of the top teams. The fact Charlton are up there speaks volumes.

There will never be a better opportunity to get promoted out of this league. I thought I saw something in the the way we played at Hull that we could be up there this season - I’m not sure after the last 2 league games. 

 

 

It was quite difficult picking out players and differentiating between the teams particularly in the bright sunlight and when they were moving at speed.I

I thought it was a clear foul on the West Brom keeper for our disallowed goal.

[rigger]

1 hour ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Anyone stating that Buckley wasn't great - he changed the game completely. 

Those saying he's too lightweight, he doesn't need to use strength to dribble round players effortlessly - he doesn't hold back on tackles either.

He was probably one of our best players yesterday - bar 1 or 2 mistakes.

Key players made 3 mistakes that led to goals.

Buckley should be starting games - he's shown to me and a lot of people he's ready - Sheffield United shows this too.

I would agree against a certain type of opposition, his skill and movement could turn games, yesterday was not one of them games. what was required yesterday was a physical presence.

You state that he changed the game. He came on with us 3-2 down, we ended up losing 3-2, how is that changing the game?

 

[Atko's Engine]

Just now, david brent said:

There will never be a better opportunity to get promoted out of this league. I thought I saw something in the the way we played at Hull that we could be up there this season - I’m not sure after the last 2 league games. 

I agree that there is nothing for us to be scared of, but that doesn't mean there aren't tougher runs or easier runs of fixtures... and your first sentence was often stated by many on here last season, yet here we are with a supposed better chance in your opinion (I don't disagree).

The last 2 league games we've drawn and lost by one goal respectively, both against pre-season frontrunners for promotion.  Not disasters by any stretch, and also not typical of the average strength of opponent we will face this season.

[RoversClitheroe]

Just now, rigger said:

I would agree against a certain type of opposition, his skill and movement could turn games, yesterday was not one of them games. what was required yesterday was a physical presence.

You state that he changed the game. He came on with us 3-2 down, we ended up losing 3-2, how is that changing the game?

 

Come on Rigger, did you see the difference between the first half and second half? 

If how we played in the first continued into the second we would have been blown away.

[47er]

1 hour ago, Atko's Engine said:

"Only played 6 games" is exactly why I'm saying let's stick with TM and give him the chance to gel what is a good, young, promising squad into something we can be proud of.  Those 6 games were widely viewed as a tough start on paper & so it's proved. But we're not rooted to the bottom on nil points as many on here predicted we would be after Charlton & Fulham, we're a couple of points off from people saying we've had a really good start. Fine margins can go either way of course, but a 3-2 away defeat to round off a tough opening sequence of games is not "sack TM and bring in Wagner / Hughton /Jokanovic / insert-name-of-any-other-manager-who's-achieved-promotion-in-the-last-5-years-here" material.

Far more sensible & less reactionary to see where we are at the start of the next international break, once the league's settled down a bit and we've had a fairer spread of matches across which to properly assess our progress (or lack of, as the case may be).  I reckon we'll be significantly higher in the table than 17th by then, if not then I'd agree that serious questions need to be asked.

 

I think you're getting a bit carried away there! I'm just pointing out the fallacy of arguing that we're only 3 points behind when the fact is we've only played 6 games!

24 games would see us 12 points off 6th wouldn't it? Probably bottom half.

[rigger]

Just now, RoversClitheroe said:

Come on Rigger, did you see the difference between the first half and second half? 

If how we played in the first continued into the second we would have been blown away.

They created and missed as many chances as us in the second half. But that still does not alter the fact that Buckley did not change the game. We were losing when he came on, we ended up losing ! 

[47er]

31 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Any opposing manager looking at a side who managed a solid midtable finish last season and have since signed good but ageing championship names like Downing and Johnson and have 'invested' c 15 million in strikers in the last 12 months should really be the one looking at Rovers and saying 'tough game' as well.

Not if he's seen us.

[JHRover]

22 minutes ago, frosty said:

Even though the quality is low, you could make a case for most Championship games being 'tough' if you really wanted to. Let's take the next three games.

Millwall have already been to WBA - a place where some don't mind a 3-2 defeat - twice this season and won and drawn. Only lost once out of six. Can already hear them being dubbed a 'tough nut to crack' or similar.

Reading away. They've also been to WBA and drawn. They also beat Cardiff at home 3-0.....some people were happy with the 0-0 draw we had against them last week. We lost there last season, so a draw there would be an improvement, etc etc.

If Luton have a couple of decent results before we play them their 'promotion bounce' will no doubt be mentioned, and you could go on and on.

At the end of the day it's all nonsense because there's zero to fear and, if our aim is to make the top 6 like Mowbray and the players told us all summer, we should be going out to win every game and not being content with dropping points against teams we're supposed to be aiming to be up there with.

Spot on. Unfortunately some have an agenda to try and reduce expectations and absolve the manager and players of any pressure or expectations.

The manager himself helps create that mentality by enhancing the size, stature and calibre of the opposition with nonsense about their "passionate crowds" etc.

If you want to go anywhere you aim and try to win every game and don't set out for a point or write games off because the are 'tough'.

As you point out, there's a case for every fixture being tough in one form or another. Every away game, every recent Premier League team etc.

Like being happy with a draw from every away game but if you only pick up 23 away points all season there's little room for error in the home games.

[Atko's Engine]

Just now, 47er said:

I think you're getting a bit carried away there! I'm just pointing out the fallacy of arguing that we're only 3 points behind when the fact is we've only played 6 games!

24 games would see us 12 points off 6th wouldn't it? Probably bottom half.

No I'm not the one getting carried away. A "Mowbray Out" thread started after Charlton was getting carried away, as was the "Wagner in" comment on this thread earlier this morning (I appreciate that neither of those were you).

Yes 7 points every 6 games would leave us 12 points back after 24 games IF we don't improve our points-to-games ratio and IF whoever's in 6th place after 24 games has the same points-to-games ratio that Fulham have now. But I very much doubt though that either of those ifs will become reality; this league is too unpredictable to draw that conclusion based on a 6 game sample.

[OldEwoodBlue]

Just now, Atko's Engine said:

No I'm not the one getting carried away. A "Mowbray Out" thread started after Charlton was getting carried away, as was the "Wagner in" comment on this thread earlier this morning (I appreciate that neither of those were you).

Yes 7 points every 6 games would leave us 12 points back after 24 games IF we don't improve our points-to-games ratio and IF whoever's in 6th place after 24 games has the same points-to-games ratio that Fulham have now. But I very much doubt though that either of those ifs will become reality; this league is too unpredictable to draw that conclusion based on a 6 game sample.

so if for the sake of discussion, we all agree with your wisdom, what do you feel is a fair number of games or time to wait before judging Tony's performance against the top 6 target ?

 

[47er]

Just now, Atko's Engine said:

No I'm not the one getting carried away. A "Mowbray Out" thread started after Charlton was getting carried away, as was the "Wagner in" comment on this thread earlier this morning (I appreciate that neither of those were you).

Yes 7 points every 6 games would leave us 12 points back after 24 games IF we don't improve our points-to-games ratio and IF whoever's in 6th place after 24 games has the same points-to-games ratio that Fulham have now. But I very much doubt though that either of those ifs will become reality; this league is too unpredictable to draw that conclusion based on a 6 game sample.

Exactly, being 3 points from 6th means nothing!

 

[Atko's Engine]

Just now, 47er said:

Exactly, being 3 points from 6th means nothing!

 

So equally getting 7 points from our first 6 games isn't a stick to beat TM with, which was (and is) my main point!! ?

[47er]

I give up!

[CambridgeRover]

47 minutes ago, rigger said:

They created and missed as many chances as us in the second half. But that still does not alter the fact that Buckley did not change the game. We were losing when he came on, we ended up losing ! 

That is a ridiculous definition of changing the game. A player can change the game without changing the scoreline.

[Atko's Engine]

28 minutes ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

so if for the sake of discussion, we all agree with your wisdom, what do you feel is a fair number of games or time to wait before judging Tony's performance against the top 6 target ?

 

I don't presume to have wisdom above anyone else, just think I have a balanced opinion that can see the bigger picture.

I've said previously, the next international break will be a good time for a fairer assessment, which I think is another 6 games. I would expect 10 points or more from the next 6 games; 2 or more less than that and our ability to progress ought to be seriously questioned. There may then of course be good reasons for not meeting that requirement (injuries, suspensions, poor officiating) which ought to be factored in, but overall we'll have a better idea if we have the right style, personnel & management staff to progress and whether its appropriate to consider drastic, risky changes.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Atko's Engine

[windymiller7]

Interesting watching WBA first goal back. From the normal camera shot, after the goal, GC is clearly remonstrating with Walton that he should've come for it. However, watching the replay from behind the goal, walton is pointing for Cunningham to put it out for a throw (obviously I can't hear how loudly he or cunningham were shouting things to each other). A balls up either way!

Agree about the kits. Very difficult to tell the teams apart. This seems to be a recurring theme with this obsession with wearing away kits whether needed or not. Same issue watching WHU v Norwich on MoTD last night - WTF didn't Norwich wear yellow!? Their black kit was hard to differentiate from West Ham's home shirt. To me, this needs sorting.

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, arbitro said:

I read his on the Rovers website interview and he doesn't mention mistakes. I don't listen to every interview and comment on what I read.

Do you know what he says to the players?

no one does. 

2 hours ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Anyone stating that Buckley wasn't great - he changed the game completely. 

Those saying he's too lightweight, he doesn't need to use strength to dribble round players effortlessly - he doesn't hold back on tackles either.

He was probably one of our best players yesterday - bar 1 or 2 mistakes.

Key players made 3 mistakes that led to goals.

Buckley should be starting games - he's shown to me and a lot of people he's ready - Sheffield United shows this too.

Buckley didn't have big imoact on the game and make us play better and keep the ball better. For me, Travis was our best player by far. Buckley probably next with Bennett, Williams just behind. 

2 hours ago, tomphil said:

Lets not accuse people of blaming Mowbray when they haven't mentioned his name.

Don't we have a coaching team ?   

Don't we have a recurring theme of conceding avoidable goals under this coaching team and manager ?

Don't we have a manager who's said he wants us to retain the ball more wherever possible this season ?

Why has Cunningham gone from looking like a good steady left back to a hesitant shaky one in the space of a couple of weeks ?

Isn't this defence coached and told what to do by this manager and his coaching team ?

Why numerous times yesterday did defenders hesitate instead of just clearing or tackling ?

 

Cunningham has had 1 bad game. that's it. 

We have a manager who wants to play abit more possession football but not suicide football but in the right areas and times. 

2 hours ago, Blue blood said:

How are two rookie managers, a bog standard lower championship team, a weakened league 1 team in the first 6 games, coupled with 2 admittedly tougher games, classed as a tough start? A myth defending an average to indifferent start from TM saying it has been a tough run of games. 

look at the quality of the squad not just the manager. Fulham have the best squad in the league, West Brom squad is decent enough and full of pace in wide areas, Boro still have quality players like Randolph, Shotton, Ayala, Friend, McNair, Clayton, Howson, Saville, Assombolonga and Wing. Any team under Warnock is tough and he knows what the league is all about. I said before the Charlton game they wouldn't be any pushovers or easy to play to against like some fans thought

1 hour ago, arbitro said:

 

I thought it was a clear foul on the West Brom keeper for our disallowed goal.

Thought it was a soft free kick given by ref on keeper 

[Mattyblue]

I don’t think you do see the ‘big picture’ Atko. 

You seem to think these young players will keep improving and fulfil their potential, ergo improving the side. Many a young player simply doesn’t kick on. 

The top end players that should be there to supplement said young lads can quickly end up over the hill - prime example Mulgrew, and unfortunately Graham seems to be heading that way, or they leave - could well be Dack’s last season. You are then back to square one, hoping the next batch of young lads improve and we carry on ad infinitum with this ‘slow build ‘ that never actually builds.

‘This time next year Rodders...’

[Blue blood]

2 hours ago, Stuart said:

Look, I’m as cynical as the next man and I still don’t think Mowbray is the man to take us further but Fulham, Boro, Hull, Cardiff, West Brom certainly constitutes a tough start. To dismiss some as having rookie managers is a little disingenuous. The only game so far that I’m disappointed with (on paper) is Charlton.

 

 

1 hour ago, frosty said:

Even though the quality is low, you could make a case for most Championship games being 'tough' if you really wanted to. Let's take the next three games.

Millwall have already been to WBA - a place where some don't mind a 3-2 defeat - twice this season and won and drawn. Only lost once out of six. Can already hear them being dubbed a 'tough nut to crack' or similar.

Reading away. They've also been to WBA and drawn. They also beat Cardiff at home 3-0.....some people were happy with the 0-0 draw we had against them last week. We lost there last season, so a draw there would be an improvement, etc etc.

If Luton have a couple of decent results before we play them their 'promotion bounce' will no doubt be mentioned, and you could go on and on.

At the end of the day it's all nonsense because there's zero to fear and, if our aim is to make the top 6 like Mowbray and the players told us all summer, we should be going out to win every game and not being content with dropping points against teams we're supposed to be aiming to be up there with.

Think Frosty articulates in part what I am getting at much better than I do. All games can seem tough but also there's a lot of strong reasons to be optimistic with each game as well - they are all realistically winnable. 

The manager makes a huge difference too - for example Brum under Rowett Vs Brum under Zola as one example, or a more recent one Cardiff last promotion under Warnock after looking terrible the season before. So whilst not solely down to manager it is a huge factor influencing how a team will do and the Championship has proved a tough situation for many a rookie manager. Frosty adds in how West Brom have had a few bumps already, Boro had a poor end to last season too (I think) and Hull - meh have not threatened for ages. So all in all think it's fair to say it wasn't that difficult a start. 

[AllRoverAsia]

1 hour ago, arbitro said:

It was quite difficult picking out players and differentiating between the teams particularly in the bright sunlight and when they were moving at speed.I

I thought it was a clear foul on the West Brom keeper for our disallowed goal.

I've rewatched a few times on the iFollow highlights and the Ref was absolutely correct to disallow as the keeper was clearly impeded.

The freekick he awarded for a 'foul' on Walton was dodgy and covered up the keeper's fumble.

It was one game that it was good that we wore those awful socks.

[roversfan99]

Our results and performances so far do not indicate we have a cat in hells chance of a top 6 challenge. Went yesterday and didnt enjoy it at all. 

Usually it takes money to turn a team that finishes in the bottom half into a play off contender. The 15m weve chucked down the drain is galling. Gallagher offered absolutely nothing again, and was rightly hauled off, so ineffective. Armstrong couldnt be arsed again, and offered nothing. And what is Mowbrays obsession with playing Downing right and Armstrong left, it repeatedly doesnt work, it nullifies both even more, yet he keeps trying it.

The fact that Dack ended up spending any of the game as a false 9, one of Mowbrays stupid failed experiments from last season rearing its ugly head again, says it all. A lot of talk as to Buckley's impact, he was neat and tidy but offers nothing particularly productive.

Travis was good, Johnson terrible, Lenihan awful for that third goal with the sort of mistake he makes every 2 or 3 games, Cunningham was surprisingly poor too.

 

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

26 minutes ago, windymiller7 said:

Interesting watching WBA first goal back. From the normal camera shot, after the goal, GC is clearly remonstrating with Walton that he should've come for it. However, watching the replay from behind the goal, walton is pointing for Cunningham to put it out for a throw (obviously I can't hear how loudly he or cunningham were shouting things to each other). A balls up either way!

Agree about the kits. Very difficult to tell the teams apart. This seems to be a recurring theme with this obsession with wearing away kits whether needed or not. Same issue watching WHU v Norwich on MoTD last night - WTF didn't Norwich wear yellow!? Their black kit was hard to differentiate from West Ham's home shirt. To me, this needs sorting.

I watched them back again this morning. Not a great day for the Irish lads.

Cunningham was poor for the second, Walton should have been out quicker to at least narrow the angle for a shot,but Cunningham let their guy get in ahead of him. 

The third one then, lenihan should have taken him down quickly and subtly. I don't know what he was trying to do. Walton out slow again though. Looks to be 1 area where Raya was better. 

I'm going in random order here,but Armstrongs contribution to the first one sums him up in my opinion. Their guy got past him and he made absolutely minimum effort to get back. Like that should be highlighted at video work in front of the team. You can debate the ability of every player all day, but lack if effort is easy to spot and absolutely inexcusable. If he had have actually ran full speed back  he would have been close enough to get a block on the chip that came back off the post. 

Again, we are striking me as a team who will never,ever do it when the chips are down and ,for example, a win would put us in the play off positions. We are grand when the pressure is off or there are no expectations. We might very well go on a run again,but next time a game comes around like Brentford last season, we will lose it. 

Rothwell should be starting. Its disappointing that none of Gallagher, Brereton or Armstrong look more effective than Graham up front. For the money they cost , we should have been able to effectively replace Graham. 

 

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Bigdoggsteel

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

Our results and performances so far do not indicate we have a cat in hells chance of a top 6 challenge. Went yesterday and didnt enjoy it at all. 

Usually it takes money to turn a team that finishes in the bottom half into a play off contender. The 15m weve chucked down the drain is galling. Gallagher offered absolutely nothing again, and was rightly hauled off, so ineffective. Armstrong couldnt be arsed again, and offered nothing. And what is Mowbrays obsession with playing Downing right and Armstrong left, it repeatedly doesnt work, it nullifies both even more, yet he keeps trying it.

The fact that Dack ended up spending any of the game as a false 9, one of Mowbrays stupid failed experiments from last season rearing its ugly head again, says it all. A lot of talk as to Buckley's impact, he was neat and tidy but offers nothing particularly productive.

Travis was good, Johnson terrible, Lenihan awful for that third goal with the sort of mistake he makes every 2 or 3 games, Cunningham was surprisingly poor too.

 

 

The service to Gallagher was nothing short of pathetic. 

Agree on Armstrong. 

Mowbray decide to play 3 in the centre of the park which we need to see more the ball. So Dack either plays the false 9 or wide or comes off. 

Buckley was good yesterday. Should start the next game for me. 

Cunningham was exposed by the pace of the WBA wingers and the fact that Armstrong did nothing to help him

[rigger]

2 hours ago, CambridgeRover said:

That is a ridiculous definition of changing the game. A player can change the game without changing the scoreline.

So what is your definition of changing a game . If the scoreline is not effected then it is a waste of time!

Edited September 1, 2019 by rigger

[Amo]

How does a shirker like Armstrong walk into the first XI but Rothwell and Chapman are hung out to dry?