match thread Middlesbrough (H)

[47er]

10 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Ha ha ha ha ha. Yet in the Mowbray Out topic when a poster gave examples of why he thought Mowbray was a good manager you considered him as being too kind.

An awful lot of posters spend their days waiting for any sort of good comment about TM to be posted to very quickly try and pour cold water on it.

Phillipl's post was a good one and accurate too, regardless of whether "that's always been the way". A good performance and peoples post count goes down 75%; a loss and all of a sudden these topics become echo chambers of how much of a clueless guy our manager is

I still think he's too "kind" (if that's the word I used, I prefer" too loyal") so what are you on about? Just so you can't accuse me of bending with the wind I'll go on record as sating that TM is an average manager at best, his sides play unattractive football, this side is so unbalanced, we will never go up with him as manager and, if the owners had any ambition for the club, they would sack him before its to late. Is that  unambiguous enough?

[Stuart]

6 hours ago, 47er said:

I still think he's too "kind" (if that's the word I used, I prefer" too loyal") so what are you on about? Just so you can't accuse me of bending with the wind I'll go on record as sating that TM is an average manager at best, his sides play unattractive football, this side is so unbalanced, we will never go up with him as manager and, if the owners had any ambition for the club, they would sack him before its to late. Is that  unambiguous enough?

I’ve started accidentally typing Bowyer instead of Mowbray.

And not just because they share most of the letters!

You know things have stagnated when people start using stability as a reason to keep a manager.

[47er]

And "stability" Stuart, with this manager, means, at best, struggling to make halfway in this League---- forever.

[JBiz]

Thing with Bowyer though, the impact he made was extremely positive, post our club having 100+m stacked up in wages against it, the heart and soul ripped out of the dressing room and academy for the Goodwillies and Slews to come.

Its easy to just expect promotion because he had rhodes and gestede, but context is key. We also had academy graduates like Kean, Henley and Lowe being paid 2x our current top wage, whom simply (even despite countless chances) showed they aren’t/weren’t up to it.

Yet now, in some people’s eyes he ultimately failed. I can’t agree with that, and I think it is disrespectful to ignore key decisions made then (Kinder and the re-organisation post SEM of our academy is one example) are helping us massively now.

[joey_big_nose]

Just now, Harry The Bass said:

Thing with Bowyer though, the impact he made was extremely positive, post our club having 100+m stacked up in wages against it, the heart and soul ripped out of the dressing room and academy for the Goodwillies and Slews to come.

Its easy to just expect promotion because he had rhodes and gestede, but context is key. We also had academy graduates like Kean, Henley and Lowe being paid 2x our current top wage, whom simply (even despite countless chances) showed they aren’t/weren’t up to it.

Yet now, in some people’s eyes he ultimately failed. I can’t agree with that, and I think it is disrespectful to ignore key decisions made then (Kinder and the re-organisation post SEM of our academy is one example) are helping us massively now.

I think most people recognise Bowyer did a good job compared to what came before and after, but like virtually all managers he reached the point where he was not producing results and we needed a change.

The lack of any decent job opportunities for Bowyer post rovers does tell a story though. I wouldn't take him back over Mowbray.

[JBiz]

Just now, joey_big_nose said:

I think most people recognise Bowyer did a good job compared to what came before and after, but like virtually all managers he reached the point where he was not producing results and we needed a change.

The lack of any decent job opportunities for Bowyer post rovers does tell a story though. I wouldn't take him back over Mowbray.

Oh certainly true, his time might’ve been up but I find it hard to think we ended up better off - even if Lambert was initially an exciting appointment. Bowyer should’ve never been in the frame, but that’s why context is key - the reality still, we’ve a disconnection between ownership and club.

More props to those managers who’ve actually had a modicum of success.

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

22 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

He isn't "scoring" as such. He converted a penalty.

Did Shearers penalties count? 

[RevidgeBlue]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Did Shearers penalties count? 

Ridiculous point which demonstrates a willful desire to miss my point and a collective head burying in the sand over Graham's attributes or lack of them.

Obviously anyone's penalties count towards their overall tally. But converting a penalty doesn't mean that he's scoring freely or contributing much in terms of overall play. If Lenihan had been allowed to take that penalty would you have made the same assertion that he was in the side and "scoring"?

Neither, obviously, does digging up his career stats mean that he is is going to continue scoring at a comparable rate this season given he is visibly becoming more and more static every year. 

Let's get it right, Mowbray is 100% correct to seek to move away from the long ball up to Graham style of play. DG was only brought in as a bit of an emergency measure after just two games because Gallagher was so dire in the opening games. If Graham can be used sparingly as back up when required then he can still probably be an asset although I still maintain we'll be in serious trouble if he's our main striker over the course of the season. Imo we need one of Brereton, Armstrong or Gallagher to step up this season and as yet there's still precious little sign of that.

[AllRoverAsia]

 

 

 

 

2

Just now, RevidgeBlue said:

Ridiculous point which demonstrates a willful desire to miss my point and a collective head burying in the sand over Graham's attributes or lack of them.

Obviously anyone's penalties count towards their overall tally. But converting a penalty doesn't mean that he's scoring freely or contributing much in terms of overall play. If Lenihan had been allowed to take that penalty would you have made the same assertion that he was in the side and "scoring"?

Neither, obviously, does digging up his career stats mean that he is is going to continue scoring at a comparable rate this season given he is visibly becoming more and more static every year. 

Let's get it right, Mowbray is 100% correct to seek to move away from the long ball up to Graham style of play. DG was only brought in as a bit of an emergency measure after just two games because Gallagher was so dire in the opening games. If Graham can be used sparingly as back up when required then he can still probably be an asset although I still maintain we'll be in serious trouble if he's our main striker over the course of the season. Imo we need one of Brereton, Armstrong or Gallagher to step up this season and as yet there's still precious little sign of that.

You have been wrong about Graham over the previous 2 Seasons and you will be again this Season.

Yes, he's getting on a bit but now at the stage of his career where he makes his experience pay dividends.

He cant play every game and Mowbrays intention seems to be to go to a more passing game. We will see how that pans out but meanwhile, in the real world, we will need Danny this Season.

I too hope that Brereton, Armstrong and Gallagher or even one of them step up as consistents corers this Season but meanwhile when in a deep hole stop digging.

[JacknOry]

44 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Ridiculous point which demonstrates a willful desire to miss my point and a collective head burying in the sand over Graham's attributes or lack of them.

Obviously anyone's penalties count towards their overall tally. But converting a penalty doesn't mean that he's scoring freely or contributing much in terms of overall play. If Lenihan had been allowed to take that penalty would you have made the same assertion that he was in the side and "scoring"?

Neither, obviously, does digging up his career stats mean that he is is going to continue scoring at a comparable rate this season given he is visibly becoming more and more static every year. 

Let's get it right, Mowbray is 100% correct to seek to move away from the long ball up to Graham style of play. DG was only brought in as a bit of an emergency measure after just two games because Gallagher was so dire in the opening games. If Graham can be used sparingly as back up when required then he can still probably be an asset although I still maintain we'll be in serious trouble if he's our main striker over the course of the season. Imo we need one of Brereton, Armstrong or Gallagher to step up this season and as yet there's still precious little sign of that.

Quite a crock there. 

DG is essential to the way play due to what he contributes on the pitch. You just have to look at the goals against Oldham to see what he brings to this side. His knockdowns and his chemistry with Dack is pivotal for us right now. In fact, take DG off like against Boro and we instantly start to struggle. He will get close to 20-goals this season if used consistently, mark my words.

[Oldgregg86]

57 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Ridiculous point which demonstrates a willful desire to miss my point and a collective head burying in the sand over Graham's attributes or lack of them.

Obviously anyone's penalties count towards their overall tally. But converting a penalty doesn't mean that he's scoring freely or contributing much in terms of overall play. If Lenihan had been allowed to take that penalty would you have made the same assertion that he was in the side and "scoring"?

Neither, obviously, does digging up his career stats mean that he is is going to continue scoring at a comparable rate this season given he is visibly becoming more and more static every year. 

Let's get it right, Mowbray is 100% correct to seek to move away from the long ball up to Graham style of play. DG was only brought in as a bit of an emergency measure after just two games because Gallagher was so dire in the opening games. If Graham can be used sparingly as back up when required then he can still probably be an asset although I still maintain we'll be in serious trouble if he's our main striker over the course of the season. Imo we need one of Brereton, Armstrong or Gallagher to step up this season and as yet there's still precious little sign of that.

Whilst I totally agree with the point your trying to make I struggle to understand your attitude towards graham. 

Graham reminds me of Henderson or Carrick in the sense that you don’t realise how important they are until they aren’t in the team. You notice what they do more when they aren’t playing.

but I agree we do need to find some answers and solutions to this conundrum this season. I personally think Gallagher is our most realistic option of filling Danny’s boots unless we have a significant change of style. I don’t need know where this leaves Brereton as he is surly going to stagnate having cameos off the bench and playing out of position. He will probably be behind Samuel when he is fit. We also have chapman to come into the first team on the right and butterworth is not far behind him as well as Rothwell. I just can’t find see how he even makes the bench when the squads fit. Very strange signing

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Ridiculous point which demonstrates a willful desire to miss my point and a collective head burying in the sand over Graham's attributes or lack of them.

Obviously anyone's penalties count towards their overall tally. But converting a penalty doesn't mean that he's scoring freely or contributing much in terms of overall play. If Lenihan had been allowed to take that penalty would you have made the same assertion that he was in the side and "scoring"?

Neither, obviously, does digging up his career stats mean that he is is going to continue scoring at a comparable rate this season given he is visibly becoming more and more static every year. 

Let's get it right, Mowbray is 100% correct to seek to move away from the long ball up to Graham style of play. DG was only brought in as a bit of an emergency measure after just two games because Gallagher was so dire in the opening games. If Graham can be used sparingly as back up when required then he can still probably be an asset although I still maintain we'll be in serious trouble if he's our main striker over the course of the season. Imo we need one of Brereton, Armstrong or Gallagher to step up this season and as yet there's still precious little sign of that.

Apart from the above, I agree that Brereton or Gallagher need to step up. Maybe Brereton can actually start being used as a striker , that would be a start 

[Dreams of 1995]

13 hours ago, 47er said:

I still think he's too "kind" (if that's the word I used, I prefer" too loyal") so what are you on about? Just so you can't accuse me of bending with the wind I'll go on record as sating that TM is an average manager at best, his sides play unattractive football, this side is so unbalanced, we will never go up with him as manager and, if the owners had any ambition for the club, they would sack him before its to late. Is that  unambiguous enough?

Hahahaha oh don't worry, your attitude towards Mowbray was never in question. I'm just glad you've finally dropped this guise of "we all like him and want him to succeed but......."

The simple fact of the matter is whenever someone posts a positive about Mowbray, it's immediately jumped on by a band of posters you are firmly in the centre of; whenever something negative is posted it is a cardinal sin for someone to challenge that viewpoint.

If ambition = sacking a manager after 3 games into a new season then I'm glad your opinion stretches as far as this board

[Exiled in Toronto]

7 hours ago, Stuart said:

I’ve started accidentally typing Bowyer instead of Mowbray.

And not just because they share most of the letters!

You know things have stagnated when people start using stability as a reason to keep a manager.

You know we are heading for another Coyle or Kean when people start thinking our owners will make sound decisions.

[roversfan99]

2 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Hahahaha oh don't worry, your attitude towards Mowbray was never in question. I'm just glad you've finally dropped this guise of "we all like him and want him to succeed but......."

The simple fact of the matter is whenever someone posts a positive about Mowbray, it's immediately jumped on by a band of posters you are firmly in the centre of; whenever something negative is posted it is a cardinal sin for someone to challenge that viewpoint.

If ambition = sacking a manager after 3 games into a new season then I'm glad your opinion stretches as far as this board

Nothing that he said suggests that he doesnt want him to succeed. It seems ultimately his thoughts eminate from a belief that he is not the most suitable person to bring success to the club. That doesnt mean that his primary objective is Mowbray failing, it means his primary objective is Rovers succeeding.

[Dreams of 1995]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

Nothing that he said suggests that he doesnt want him to succeed. It seems ultimately his thoughts eminate from a belief that he is not the most suitable person to bring success to the club. That doesnt mean that his primary objective is Mowbray failing, it means his primary objective is Rovers succeeding.

I could go back to 5 or 6 topics in which a comment that highlights a positive effect Mowbray has had on the club and name you the exact posters that have jumped on it straight away with an attempt to either skew the figures or put an "alternative" (and almost always hyperbolic) view on it. However which way you wrap it up it goes above and beyond wanting Rovers to succeed now; this board has become a place in which views have become so polarised it is almost as if in some eyes Mowbray, or the club, can do no right.

In fact, I'm going to put my neck on the line and say even when certain myths get dispelled they are largely ignored purely because there are some that have a dislike of Mowbray. The biggest case and point is that over 50 pages of the transfer thread was spent discussing how terrible Mowbray is in the window because he hasn't invested in the defence, whereas Miller11's topic which showed a look at expenditure in our defence dating back to the Venky takeover got 23 replies only. And out of all those posters that spent page after page smashing TM for it only 1 replied (Stuart) in which even then he criticised Mowbray for being complicit and said the buck stops with him, almost as if the outside influence of our owners is irrelevant.

As a second point we had over 10+ pages of criticism for Mowbray's signing of older players (Downing/Johnson) then, when AAK I think it was, posted statistics to show we are still the youngest squad in the league, even after the signings, not once did it get acknowledged by said posters and instead the point got muted for a few weeks until it was brought back up again. It's incessant. Yet, for whatever reason, as soon as this is brought up by posters that acknowledge the context surrounding Rovers right now we are told that "this place is somewhere to voice an opinion" and that posters don't have an underlying dislike of Mowbray but are instead incredibly "passionate" about the success of Rovers, despite their constant refusal to acknowledge anything good or credible the club does but are the first to spend pages telling us why they think they are so damn terrible (ST prices, transfers, in-house promotions etc etc etc etc)

[Mattyblue]

Thought you wanted him gone, Dreams?

Bit rich trying to take the moral high ground about ‘hyperbolic’ brfcs-ers that won’t see any good in TM when you were happy for him to be sacked after TWO games of the season. 

Edited August 20, 2019 by Mattyblue

[Dreams of 1995]

Just now, Mattyblue said:

Thought you wanted him sacked, Dreams?

I had my fingers burnt with my calls for it in League 1 Matty. At that point I was still reeling from the relegation and in truth obnoxiously thought we should have walked that league. Since then though Mowbrays work behind the scenes has become apparent and no one can deny we aren't a better run club thanks to him.

Look I don't think Mowbray is infallible. I think he gets it wrong sometimes, I think he's over estimated the strength of the defenders and I think he's far too critical of our younger players. He has a lot of negative points but it's getting actually boring now reading the same posters go after any single shred of positivity to come out of the club and try and tear it apart. The "suspicion" of the Johnson promotion (didn't someone actually dare to suggest Mowbray did it because he was scared if DJ carried on he'd take his job???) was the last straw.

Any time there's a criticism aimed at him that's disproven it's ignored for a few weeks and then it rears its head again when time suits. Likewise, whenever there's anything good that comes from him it's either put down as luck or him benefiting from others' work. He can do no right. I don't think this forum should be a place where he's not allowed to be criticised but I know for a fact I'm not the only poster that's sick and tired of the echo chamber. It's shown in that topics which are typically "anti-Mowbray" are always hot topics and topics which show Mowbray in another way are completely avoided by said posters.

[Mattyblue]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

I had my fingers burnt with my calls for it in League 1 Matty. At that point I was still reeling from the relegation and in truth obnoxiously thought we should have walked that league. Since then though Mowbrays work behind the scenes has become apparent and no one can deny we aren't a better run club thanks to him.

Look I don't think Mowbray is infallible. I think he gets it wrong sometimes, I think he's over estimated the strength of the defenders and I think he's far too critical of our younger players. He has a lot of negative points but it's getting actually boring now reading the same posters go after any single shred of positivity to come out of the club and try and tear it apart. The "suspicion" of the Johnson promotion (didn't someone actually dare to suggest Mowbray did it because he was scared if DJ carried on he'd take his job???) was the last straw.

Any time there's a criticism aimed at him that's disproven it's ignored for a few weeks and then it rears its head again when time suits. Likewise, whenever there's anything good that comes from him it's either put down as luck or him benefiting from others' work. He can do no right. I don't think this forum should be a place where he's not allowed to be criticised but I know for a fact I'm not the only poster that's sick and tired of the echo chamber. It's shown in that topics which are typically "anti-Mowbray" are always hot topics and topics which show Mowbray in another way are completely avoided by said posters.

So you didn’t want him sacked last week?

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

I had my fingers burnt with my calls for it in League 1 Matty. At that point I was still reeling from the relegation and in truth obnoxiously thought we should have walked that league. Since then though Mowbrays work behind the scenes has become apparent and no one can deny we aren't a better run club thanks to him.

Look I don't think Mowbray is infallible. I think he gets it wrong sometimes, I think he's over estimated the strength of the defenders and I think he's far too critical of our younger players. He has a lot of negative points but it's getting actually boring now reading the same posters go after any single shred of positivity to come out of the club and try and tear it apart. The "suspicion" of the Johnson promotion (didn't someone actually dare to suggest Mowbray did it because he was scared if DJ carried on he'd take his job???) was the last straw.

Any time there's a criticism aimed at him that's disproven it's ignored for a few weeks and then it rears its head again when time suits. Likewise, whenever there's anything good that comes from him it's either put down as luck or him benefiting from others' work. He can do no right. I don't think this forum should be a place where he's not allowed to be criticised but I know for a fact I'm not the only poster that's sick and tired of the echo chamber. It's shown in that topics which are typically "anti-Mowbray" are always hot topics and topics which show Mowbray in another way are completely avoided by said posters.

Yes

Edited August 20, 2019 by Bigdoggsteel

[K-Hod]

I thought we’d gone past referring to people’s opinions as hyperbole. 

I guess not. Shame really. 

I actually thought the board had been more united than ever in recent weeks after a turbulent summer, shall we say!

 

Edited August 20, 2019 by K-Hod

[Stuart]

3 hours ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

You know we are heading for another Coyle or Kean when people start thinking our owners will make sound decisions.

The oxymoron being that they brought in Mowbray.

[Dreams of 1995]

2 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

So you didn’t want him sacked last week?

I wouldn’t say I want him sacked, evidenced by the acknowledgment of what’s come after is frightening.

Loaning out Mulgrew without replacement is an appalling decision imo, as his treatment of younger players in the press. However his work in the background goes a long way in my eyes and whilst I don’t necessarily agree with everything he does I’m much more content with him in charge than I would be if we had another hunt for a new manager. 

This club is run like a joke. We have had a shocking window and I don’t know whether that’s down to the board, lack of, or Mowbray. What I won’t do though is blame every single thing on TM and spend every day demeaning any bit of positive work he has done for the club. 

If Mowbray got sacked it would be with a heavy heart I’d see him go. It would only be a good decision if there was a manager of promotion ilk lined up. Although I do admit that my opinion of Mowbray was far higher in May than it is now but, then again, what I know about football pales in comparison to him so I may once again eat my words about it being a bad window and him getting it right. 

[47er]

8 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Hahahaha oh don't worry, your attitude towards Mowbray was never in question. I'm just glad you've finally dropped this guise of "we all like him and want him to succeed but......."

The simple fact of the matter is whenever someone posts a positive about Mowbray, it's immediately jumped on by a band of posters you are firmly in the centre of; whenever something negative is posted it is a cardinal sin for someone to challenge that viewpoint.

If ambition = sacking a manager after 3 games into a new season then I'm glad your opinion stretches as far as this board

We do all want him to succeed but many fear he won't. You are simply incapable of recognising that I am as thrilled when Rovers win as anyone on the planet. This doesn't stop me being realistic about a future under Venkys and TM. And my fears are long-term, they don't vary from game to game.

I've dropped no guise because I never had one, except in your little mind.

[47er]

1 hour ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

What I won’t do though is blame every single thing on TM and spend every day demeaning any bit of positive work he has done for the club. 

Me too!