January transfer window 2020

[Amo]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

What do you mean? Are you just saying Breretons name out of context in every response? 

Literally first time I mentioned him.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

42 minutes ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

 

Some very harsh judgements there for me, plenty of low-risk signings there which have either contributed whilst they were here or still very much have the potential to. Judging Nuttall as not worth his contract when we signed him on a free for the youth team, scored a few goals for us then sold on a profit seems harsh. Some other small investments who were fine, even if they weren't in the plans for the future, like Rodwell or P. Downing.

We didn't worry about wasting money on fees and wages for Maceo Rigters, Bruno Berner and Johan Vogel when the profits from Santa-Cruz and Bentley pay for them fifty times over. I don't see why we should worry about the money 'wasted' on the likes of Hart, Lyons, Caddis, P. Downing or Rodwelll when you think about how much the value has increased for Dack, Armstrong and Rothwell.

Can't disagree that the Brereton transfer is looking more and more like it might be an expensive error, but there's no doubting that the squad's value has increased enormously since TM took over, and by more than the outlay we've spent on transfer fees. Dack might be doing a bit of the heavy lifting for that, but Armstrong's value will have tripled since we signed him and Rothwell is certainly worth much more than the few hundred grand we paid for him.

 

Like it or not but  Dack's worth nothing until he starts playing at his previous level again. Armstrong, we might get more than we paid.. Rothwell, the juries out as to what he's worth but it won't be a lot.

[neophox]

Rankin-Costello is ahead of Smallwood at the moment. Best would be to sell him.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

13 hours ago, Pedro said:

How many permanent TM signings have actually come good and had an impact that has anywhere near matched their contract?

Dack - definitely

S Downing - absolutely

Armstrong - Yes

P Downing - No. Now left

Bell - No. Contract up in the summer

Rodwell - No. Now left.

Smallwood - yes league one, unused for a year so No. Contract up in the summer.

Chapman - No. 

Samuel - No.

Gladwin - No. Now left.

Rothwell - No, only fleetingly.

Holtby - not yet

Davenport - no

Brereton - No

Gallagher - Not yet

Johnson - No

Whittingham - No. Now left.

Nuttall - No. Now left.

Hart - No. Effectively left.

Caddis- No. Now left.

Leutweiller - No

Lyons - No

 

 

 

Apologies if I have missed anyone but I think they are largely absolutely pitiful dealings and MILLIONS have been  wasted in fees and wages.  I wouldn't trust him with another penny and (alongside the poor tactics and selections) just don't get the love in with him.

 

 

You missed out the inexplicable loan of Harper.

[4000Holes]

13 hours ago, Pedro said:

How many permanent TM signings have actually come good and had an impact that has anywhere near matched their contract?

Dack - definitely

S Downing - absolutely

Armstrong - Yes

P Downing - No. Now left

Bell - No. Contract up in the summer

Rodwell - No. Now left.

Smallwood - yes league one, unused for a year so No. Contract up in the summer.

Chapman - No. 

Samuel - No.

Gladwin - No. Now left.

Rothwell - No, only fleetingly.

Holtby - not yet

Davenport - no

Brereton - No

Gallagher - Not yet

Johnson - No

Whittingham - No. Now left.

Nuttall - No. Now left.

Hart - No. Effectively left.

Caddis- No. Now left.

Leutweiller - No

Lyons - No

 

 

 

Apologies if I have missed anyone but I think they are largely absolutely pitiful dealings and MILLIONS have been  wasted in fees and wages.  I wouldn't trust him with another penny and (alongside the poor tactics and selections) just don't get the love in with him.

 

 

Would be interesting to put agents names alongside that list.

[DE.]

15 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

You missed out the inexplicable loan of Harper.

In fairness he did state permanent signings at the top of the post.

I pretty much agree with the assessments, although I'd say Paul Downing was a success overall as he did much better than expected, and Nutall could probably be considered successful as well due to the low fee/wages and the return we got on the pitch and in the eventual sale. 

On the whole though our permanent signings have been pretty poor. No point anybody taking about speculative squad value as that only counts when we actually sell somebody for decent profit. Dack in particular is a total question mark after his injury.

[neophox]

Austrian International left back Christian Fuchs at Leicester available. Maybe a loan until end of season? 

[RV Blue]

24 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

You missed out the inexplicable loan of Harper.

This one actually set Travis’ development back 6 months.

[Mercer]

8 hours ago, MarkBRFC said:

Its frustrating that the likes of Smallwood and Samuel are picking up a decent wage whilst doing nothing, but I don't blame them for wanting to see out there contracts for the sake of 6 months, these are probably the best deals either of them will have in there career.

I have to say though, as things stand in the summer we'll need to do a hell of lot of work just to stand still in this league.

You can't blame the players.

The blame lies at the door of those who negotiated / signed-off the deals on behalf of Rovers.

I think there's a staggering lack of business / commercial nous within Rovers.  

IMO, the shortcomings of Mowbray and Waggott are evident yet again. 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Mercer

[Admiral Nelsen]

1 minute ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Like it or not but  Dack's worth nothing until he starts playing at his previous level again. Armstrong, we might get more than we paid.. Rothwell, the juries out as to what he's worth but it won't be a lot.

Fair enough on Dack's injury, but my point is that looking at signings one by one, then giving them a yes/no success/failure isn't a misleading and unfair way of looking at how well TM has spent money. If you get the big stuff right, then all the loans and speculative young players who don't make it really don't matter. That's why we remember Sparky for his gems and not his dross, because every mamanger has them.

I'm not especially good at judging transfer values these days, but Armstrong is a young, English lightning quick forward who scores and sets up goals. Inconsistent, yes, but it seems to me that 6 million in the modern game is a fairly conservative estimate of what he could go for. Rothwell on this season's form wouldn't fetch as much, but certainly enough to pay for himself and go a long way in covering most of the other small fees on the likes of Bell, Davenport etc.

[roversfan99]

4 hours ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

You know the way Mowbray has always let guys get the best move for themselves, like say when he let Ward go on loan for the last 6 months if his contract,Paul Downing too? It's what he does. Well I was thinking , do the players not owe the club the same? I mean should Samuel and Smallwood not take paycuys to go and free up some wages here? Particularly as things are tight. It seems the treating players fairly and as human beings is a one way street. 

Maybe that's a bit harsh and I don't know what offers are there, but I agree we do need to move players on who won't feature. 

You cant expect players to give up contracts that give them and their family financial security to rush through deals elsewhere because we have now decided that we dont want them prior to the expiry of a contract we mutually agreed with them at the start. Or to give up potentially tens of thousands of pounds as some sort of moral decision to try and maximise our clubs meagre kitty. 

The club and Mowbray are responsible for prematurely giving Smallwood a new deal as soon as we was promoted, when his past CV showed that he was very capable at League 1 level but had struggled with the jump to the Championship in the past. With Samuel, he has never been good enough from the start. I dont hold any sort of grudge towards either player and fully understand their position. Samuel has not long since recovered from serious injury. Theres plenty of logic in training hard for the rest of the season, ticking over in the under 23s if need be, being well remunerated, and then being able to negotiate a deal with more options available seeing as they have no strings attached regarding picking up part of an existing contract.

[Mercer]

2 hours ago, Silas said:

Legacy was maybe a bit strong. But almost 2 decades as a manager, years served at top level in the Prem, managed one of biggest clubs in UK at Celtic. Not to be sniffed at.

Maybe, but what we're doing with him at the moment is a load of "butts"!

IMO, Mowbray's managerial record is very average.

He did okay at Hibs and got WBA promoted to the PL only to be relegated in their first season back.  I think he disappointed at Celtic and failed to get M'boro back to the PL in a fairly lengthy second spell there.  We know how Coventry ended up.  He failed to keep Rovers up when that's what he was appointed for, got us back at the first attempt with the biggest budget in the division but, IMO, we are as far away from the PL as ever. 

In actual fact, I think you will find he's managed in the PL for just one year and not 'years' as you say.

I think Mowbray has done very well out of the game on the back of, IMO, a very mixed and indifferent managerial record.

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, Amo said:

Literally first time I mentioned him.

What was your point as in he's the new Brereton, I dont get it? 

[Bigdoggsteel]

21 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You cant expect players to give up contracts that give them and their family financial security to rush through deals elsewhere because we have now decided that we dont want them prior to the expiry of a contract we mutually agreed with them at the start. Or to give up potentially tens of thousands of pounds as some sort of moral decision to try and maximise our clubs meagre kitty. 

The club and Mowbray are responsible for prematurely giving Smallwood a new deal as soon as we was promoted, when his past CV showed that he was very capable at League 1 level but had struggled with the jump to the Championship in the past. With Samuel, he has never been good enough from the start. I dont hold any sort of grudge towards either player and fully understand their position. Samuel has not long since recovered from serious injury. Theres plenty of logic in training hard for the rest of the season, ticking over in the under 23s if need be, being well remunerated, and then being able to negotiate a deal with more options available seeing as they have no strings attached regarding picking up part of an existing contract.

You have a unique knack of disagreeing with practically every post,even ones where people agree with you. Are you like that in real life?

When you say you wouldn't expect players to rush through deals ,family security yada yada, I would agree except for the fact they are footballers. So actually moving earlier and playing football for the next 6 months would benefit their careers in the long run. 

[chaddyrovers]

18 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Theres plenty of logic in training hard for the rest of the season, ticking over in the under 23s if need be, being well remunerated, and then being able to negotiate a deal with more options available seeing as they have no strings attached regarding picking up part of an existing contract.

bet Ben Marshall thought the same last summer. look where he playing now and the level. 

could happen to Smallwood now

Surely both players want to be first team football and not just train every week? 

18 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

You cant expect players to give up contracts that give them and their family financial security to rush through deals

rush through deals? surely its been know for months that neither player will be first team squad this season. The player's agent should have been looking for clubs for them. 

 

[chaddyrovers]

2 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I would agree except for the fact they are footballers. So actually moving earlier and playing football for the next 6 months would benefit their careers in the long run. 

I agreed

[roversfan99]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

You have a unique knack of disagreeing with practically every post,even ones where people agree with you. Are you like that in real life?

When you say you wouldn't expect players to rush through deals ,family security yada yada, I would agree except for the fact they are footballers. So actually moving earlier and playing football for the next 6 months would benefit their careers in the long run. 

If the right deal came about now whereby the players wage wouldnt go down(ie it was partially covered by 2 teams) and it was at a team that the player wanted to go to, then im sure the players would consider it. But I was just pointing out that I dont think that players have any sort of moral obligation to seek a new club immediately out if loyalty. A footballers career is short and if they feel that they are best served allowing their healthy contract to expire and then seek a new club without having the problem of covering an existing contract, then there is nothing wrong with that.

It is in our best interest to move them on but I am looking at it from the players point of view.

[roversfan99]

5 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

bet Ben Marshall thought the same last summer. look where he playing now and the level. 

could happen to Smallwood now

Surely both players want to be first team football and not just train every week? 

rush through deals? surely its been know for months that neither player will be first team squad this season. The player's agent should have been looking for clubs for them. 

 

 

3 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

its very easy to say to post them when you aren't the player playing under 23's football and training. 

Smallwood has surely know for months now that he wont be playing 1st team football at this club. Look at Ben Marshall who is playing 10th division football. Why hasn't a league 1 or 2 club sign him? If I was a manager of a team in league 1 I would be very wary of signing either player if they are more bother about money than playing football and enjoying playing proper football again. 

We see the market put up after this weekend games as it always does in the transfer window. Every window is the same. Most of the window is slow and dull and then the last week of the transfer window is busy and chaos. 

Its a club option so its down to the club not the player to decide. 

 

if we terminated their contracts after the window closes they cannot signed for another club until the summer

Marshall is a very peculiar comparison. I have seen suggestions (unsure if true) questioning his professionalism in terms of alcohol, he actually didnt sit on his contract at Norwich, he seeked loan moves in both seasons to Millwall for regular football so he didnt sit on his contract. He could quite clearly get a contract in the football league but has chosen to play with his mates at a really low level, surely thats something that you massive approve, putting his enjoyment at playing football over being paid? 

Put it this way, neither Smallwood or Samuel would be unable to get a football league club.

Also, I suspect you are building yourself up for a fall if you are expecting a late flurry of transfer business. Youve always said you expect in 3, id be surprised with 1. Other teams have managed to sign players at our level in spite of this being the way the window works. 

[roversfan99]

13 hours ago, Wood26 said:

We don’t need to sign anyone, as I’ve said before, squad is good enough to see what happens this year. This squad is good enough for play offs and if we go up then we go from there. If we don’t, then we shop and sell in summer.

Unless there is a player who walks into our team and makes us better, play the youth fringe players.

What makes you think that the current squad is capable of a top 6 finish? Have we been in the top 6 at any point since we got promoted? Just seems totally wishful thinking to me.

6 hours ago, magicalmortensleftpeg said:

Isn’t the issue with analysing the signings is the size of the fee and therefore risk vs reward.

I’d say that signing Dack easily makes up for a number of cheap misses eg Gladwin, Samuel, Lyons, Whittingham and Hart. He’s found us a £15m+ asset for £750k.

Smallwood as well. Cost very little but pivotal in our L1 campaign. Surely that’s justified the fee..?

Johnson has been a reasonable back up CM this season so I wouldn’t class him as a miss. 

Downing has been a revelation. 
 

The obvious failures are Brereton and Gallagher. Not simply because they’ve played poorly but because of the fees involved.

Brereton is looking like being one of, if not the, worst piece of transfer business we have ever done. We can not afford to gamble £5m plus on a youth product with no pedigree. He will forever be a black stain on Tony’s tenure here.

Would agree with most of this, the Dack signing gives scope for a couple of the cheaper failures.

The problem with Smallwood was giving him a new contract when we came up. There was no need, he dished out new contracts like confetti.

There is no way that Johnson came in with the intention or indeed the wage to be a competent back up but im not sure he even qualifies as that. Was really impressive on debut then dipped into a consistent below par level of performance that eventually led to the usually patient Mowbray having enough and dropping him. He came back in for that Bristol City game when he was again excellent, he then had I think a decent game following that, then his performance level dipped again v Huddersfield and Birmingham. He has had 2 or 3 good games but aside from that hes been really dissapointing.

[chaddyrovers]

12 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

 

He could quite clearly get a contract in the football league but has chosen to play with his mates at a really low level, surely thats something that you massive approve, putting his enjoyment at playing football over being paid? 

Put it this way, neither Smallwood or Samuel would be unable to get a football league club.

Also, I suspect you are building yourself up for a fall if you are expecting a late flurry of transfer business. Youve always said you expect in 3, id be surprised with 1. Other teams have managed to sign players at our level in spite of this being the way the window works. 

could he have got a contract in football league club? So why has he only just signed a contract with a club in 10th division of football. 

If Smallwood or Samuel are more interested in money than playing football that is going to put off some managers from being interesting in them. 

I expected alot of clubs to make a late flurry of transfers and it will be chaos next week. 

Yes some other teams have made a few signings but hardly any that make you think wish we sign them unless I haven't seen them. Leeds, Forest, Sheff Wed and WBA all after strikers and haven't got any in as far as I know. 

Would have taken Ryan Woods or Jack Clarke but that's abit it to be honest

[Bigdoggsteel]

39 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

If the right deal came about now whereby the players wage wouldnt go down(ie it was partially covered by 2 teams) and it was at a team that the player wanted to go to, then im sure the players would consider it. But I was just pointing out that I dont think that players have any sort of moral obligation to seek a new club immediately out if loyalty. A footballers career is short and if they feel that they are best served allowing their healthy contract to expire and then seek a new club without having the problem of covering an existing contract, then there is nothing wrong with that.

It is in our best interest to move them on but I am looking at it from the players point of view.

Nobody said they had a moral obligation to leave. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

17 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

What makes you think that the current squad is capable of a top 6 finish? Have we been in the top 6 at any point since we got promoted? Just seems totally wishful thinking to me.

 

Talk about hyperbole. No we haven't been in the play offs, but we are close. You make it sound like we are miles away. 

Is it totally wishful thinking that Millwall or Bristol city get into the play offs? Because they are 4 points ahead of us, not 40. 

[roversfan99]

7 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

could he have got a contract in football league club? So why has he only just signed a contract with a club in 10th division of football. 

If Smallwood or Samuel are more interested in money than playing football that is going to put off some managers from being interesting in them. 

I expected alot of clubs to make a late flurry of transfers and it will be chaos next week. 

Yes some other teams have made a few signings but hardly any that make you think wish we sign them unless I haven't seen them. Leeds, Forest, Sheff Wed and WBA all after strikers and haven't got any in as far as I know. 

Would have taken Ryan Woods or Jack Clarke but that's abit it to be honest

Because like I said, he is playing with his mates. Hes not just suddenly become only capable of playing at the 12th level.

I very much doubt it, it is a job at the end of the day. As far as they are concerned they are fighting for their places here.

My point was that you can with planning and obviously with funds available sign players prior to the last few days. Regarding other signings, Scott Sinclair in particular and also Patrick Roberts would be a massive improvement on our bunch of non scoring and assisting wide players.

I dont think its going to be an exciting last few days signing the 3 players youve earmarked. Seems like the kitty is dry. Hopefully its all a ploy and we have massively strengthened by next week. I doubt it.

[roversfan99]

1 minute ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Talk about hyperbole. No we haven't been in the play offs, but we are close. You make it sound like we are miles away. 

Is it totally wishful thinking that Millwall or Bristol city get into the play offs? Because they are 4 points ahead of us, not 40. 

Theres a very small chance, but im saying that weve never at any point been in the top 6 since promotion. There are a few teams ahead of us and we are without 3 key players including our very best one. To suggest that we have a squad capable of a top 6 finish is a bit of a logic leap.

[Hasta]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

Bet Ben Marshall thought the same last summer. look where he playing now and the level

I don't think Smallwood has the reputation Marshall has that probably makes managers wary. 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Hasta