January transfer window 2020

[Mashed Potatoes]

10 minutes ago, Amo said:

Not my job. I could offer alternatives and you'd blithely dismiss them for your own agenda.

You act like mediocre Mowbray is the best we could possibly hope for. What a depressing mindset.

I assure you I would not blithely dismiss alternatives. My mindset is that the mediocre Mowbray represents with Bowyer and Lambert the highest calibre of managerial performance we have had with Venky's ownership with their other 4 appointments performing worse. Yes, it is depressing.

It is not difficult to rattle off names of people who are better but the problem is (1) can the owners do what we can and identify them (2) will those managers be put off by Venky's reputation and (3) is the club facing FFP constraints which would be a serious deterrent to taking the job.

[Ewood Ace]

1 hour ago, JoeH said:

Take away Walton, Adarabioyo and Cunningham on loan... and then remove all players with virtually no re-sale value, or who's playing time at the club is unlikely to be long-term. Players like Bennett, Graham, Downing, Johnson who aren't ever going to make the club any money from this point onwards...

This is the squad you're left with, players of a good/decent age, who are long term players in your side, who could potentially move for big sums.

Players in orange are academy assets. First team players wise, when you remove Bradley Dack from the equation, and pull those green highlighted first teamers together... you've got:

Now compare this graphic with the 2016/17 relegation side, also not including Bradley Dack. Long term players back then included the likes of Graham and Mulgrew, but even then they didn't have a significant re-sale value. Sam Gallagher and Marvin Emnes where here on loan, Jason Lowe the captain was worth bugger all... Danny Guthrie, Liam Feeney, Lucas Joao (another loan), Gordon Greer, Elliott Ward...

Whilst we may feel that between 2016 - NOW we've gone barely anywhere (besides Bradley Dack)... that's not necessarily the case.

BUT... I hear you cry, this doesn't take into account the money spent on these players... We've spunked away £12m on shit strikers!!!!

So here it is. Estimated profits if each saleable asset was sold. Now of course the academy doesn't run for free, but those figures don't come into FFP, and it's hard to distribute academy money spent to specific players like Lewis Travis and Ryan Nyambe. Actual money spent on Ben Brereton isn't £7m as of Jan 2020, and same with Gallagher being slightly lower too. So are we better off (even without Dack) than we were pre-relegation? I guess it's hard to say.

We're operating at a loss each season, of over £20m now, but we absolutely have more on the field assets than we did two/three years ago. It could be argued that by next season, Travis, Lenihan, Rothwell and Nyambe could all be worth more... depending on how they perform. Even Adam Armstrong is probably slightly undervalued at £2.5m but I've tried to be realistic.

We all get frustrated at Rovers, I myself included. Many of us have just travelled about 13 hours in 6 days following the lads away from home over the new years period... and the rewards were non-existent. But when you assess where we are now vs where we were in 2016, we're in a better position. Yes Gallagher is bloody useless, and Buckley is weak as a butter left out in summer - but things are naturally on the up over the last few years. This is going to take time, and as much as so far Mowbray has had a VERY mixed bag in the transfer market, you can't deny the current clubs player value vs the 2016 player values we had. 

 

Not sure who is going to pay £2.5 Million for Holtby, he was available for free in the summer and didn't get a club until September. The only players that you have us making a profit on are players who have come through our academy and therefore any money received for them is a profit. It's another damning indictment of the managers dealings in the transfer market.

[Amo]

18 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

I assure you I would not blithely dismiss alternatives. My mindset is that the mediocre Mowbray represents with Bowyer and Lambert the highest calibre of managerial performance we have had with Venky's ownership with their other 4 appointments performing worse. Yes, it is depressing.

It is not difficult to rattle off names of people who are better but the problem is (1) can the owners do what we can and identify them (2) will those managers be put off by Venky's reputation and (3) is the club facing FFP constraints which would be a serious deterrent to taking the job.

Every managerial appointment is a gamble. Sometimes a manager looks good on paper and flatters to deceive, whereas some clubs make low-key appointments that fit like a glove. None of us have a crystal ball, but from what we've seen of Mowbray in almost three years, he's a tinkerer who can't build from the back, decide on a best XI or spend money wisely. His one astute piece of business (Dack) has pretty much carried us. We've never looked particularly convincing as a team, even during our L1 promotion season.  

[Pedro]

30 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

I assure you I would not blithely dismiss alternatives. My mindset is that the mediocre Mowbray represents with Bowyer and Lambert the highest calibre of managerial performance we have had with Venky's ownership with their other 4 appointments performing worse. Yes, it is depressing.

It is not difficult to rattle off names of people who are better but the problem is (1) can the owners do what we can and identify them (2) will those managers be put off by Venky's reputation and (3) is the club facing FFP constraints which would be a serious deterrent to taking the job.

You keep consistently overlooking the fact it is Mowbray's failures that have put us at risk of FFP.  It also really bemuses me that you seem to think he will somehow do a better job without money - when the evidence (in terms of performances, selections and long winless runs) suggest he's struggling whilst he's had it to waste.

Additionally, the Venkys made 3 out of the last 4 managerial appointments very sensibly, one of them Mowbray (who did some positives but has clearly run his course now imo).  I don't fear their next appointment as much as I fear the continued implosion if we don't make one.  Preston at home will show hostility towards TM if we are served up dross again. For that I have no doubt.

 

[Pedro]

20 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Not sure who is going to pay £2.5 Million for Holtby, he was available for free in the summer and didn't get a club until September. The only players that you have us making a profit on are players who have come through our academy and therefore any money received for them is a profit. It's another damning indictment of the managers dealings in the transfer market.

Bell has no value either, his contract is up in June.

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, islander200 said:

Before our good run you thought it was near the end for Mowbray?

We have reverted back to type,I know there are injuries and fitness issues etc but the amount of changes  Mowbray made to the team over the festive period was ridiculous.

I had a little teeny glimmer of hope during our decent spell that Mowbray had finally cottoned on and would start to play a settled line up with players mostly in their correct positions.

He has been unfortunate with Dacks injury but since it  Mowbray doesn't seem to have a clue on what to do since he got injured.

At any other club I do think he would have been sacked already.I like Mowbray and think he has done some good things for the club but we need someone in who can improve players with their coaching,who is better in the transfer market and who doesn't have to tinker every single match 

Yes I did but then I did posted why I changed my view and explained myself. 

The amount of changes was due to injuries and fatigue. players like Evans who got injured twice over the Christmas period, Nyambe injury, Tosin injury, Graham unable to play so many games within a short period of time. 

Dack injury is unfortunate but injuries happen in football. Mowbray has to find a way to make the team win games. that's all that matters. Most managers tinker with their team match to match. I would say Mowbray has improve a number of players over his time here. 

Tho I do accept your point that you would like a change of manager at the club

1 hour ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I watched that video that Chaddy posted earlier regarding our new enhanced training methods. It all looks very slick and well thought out but as soon as we take to the field there is absolutely no evidence in our play that any of it is working. I'm not a stick in the mud but there seemed to be a lot of theoretical work and gym work but I didn't see much evidence of us actually playing full size games.

Thanks for watching the video. 

I think we are being more passing team despite Roversfan99 saying we have the second highest number of long ball played in games after Preston. Don't know where he gets his stats from but I posted 6 games match stats from Rovers official website

48 minutes ago, Madon said:

I've not been following this thread at all lately so it may have already been mentioned but a guy from work has just said we are about to sign Nikolas Schmidt on loan to replace Dack. 

Anyone any idea? I've never heard of him!

I think it was @JoeH who suggested it was him, after @SkipDonoghue info that a German player was being show around Brpckhall last week

[roversfan99]

22 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I remember it. Graham, Evans, Williams, Lenihan, Nyambe and Bennett were all here. Raya for all of his faults was  better than Walton, and he was ours. Mulgrew was here, pre decline, Adarabioyo is perhaps slightly better. We had Greer, Hoban, Ward and Brown, none of whom were up to it and only played in an emergency, but all of whoms contracts were close to expiry. In terms of numbers, they were all in addition to what we have now, no depth at all. We have added Bell since who is shockingly poor. So goalkeeper and defence, we are pretty similar. Raya and Mulgrew, swapped for Walton and Adarabioyo. 4 dreadful hangers on as back up on short term deals then, only 1 dreadful longer term player who plays quite a lot.

Midfield, Evans played regularly until injury (pre Mowbray) and is a regular now. We had Lowe, Guthrie and Akpan, a dreadful trio, again all of whom were on their last year. Travis is the main improvement, someone who Mowbray hasnt signed so someone who would have been either without him, but he did give him his chance and keep him in the team. Johnson is an obvious improvement on the dross but has still been a huge dissapointment here. Davenport has done nothing. Holtby has a good pedigree and has impressed in flashes but has yet to do anywhere near enough to be considered a success. Out wide, we had Conway (heading towards a decline) and as a short term deal Downing is definitely an upgrade. Mahoney was overrated due to being local, and Feeney wasnt up to it. That said, neither Rothwell or Chapman have produced at first team level here. Our midfield is definitely better, but not as much as it should be.

Up top, I would suggest that we are worse off. Emnes scored 4 and assisted 8 in his loan spell, Armstrongs stats arent too disimilar but I would rather have the latter, plus he is our player. Gallagher we had on loan and he has actually regressed since his average loan spell (often painted as being better than it actually was) plus we are lumbered long term with considerable wages. And Joao on a loan deal is much favourable to a dud like Brereton on a long term deal. Plus we have Samuel too, another waste of time. 

I would say we havent developed as a squad since then, if we have, very little. Considering most of our deadwood was on contracts about to expire, and Mowbray has had 3 years and 20m to re-mould it, it really is unacceptable to have the squad we have now.

@JoeH @Bigdoggsteel this was my analysis on our squad development.

We have some players that we have brought in, notably the obvious 2 that I dont consider as assets. You can attach an arbitary and random figure to them but for me they are liabilities because we are stuck with their long contracts as there would be no chance of anyone buying them. Weve also added some new deadwood of a different type, younger players to be fair but none of whom have done anything to warrant a buyer coming in for them.

We had plenty of deadwood but their contracts were soon to expire and they were in addition to what we have now. We had Lenihan and Williams and Mulgrew then, Adarabioyo now. As bad as Hoban, Greer, Brown and Ward were, they were not instead of Lenihan etc, they were in addition to what we already had and have.

Our squad I will concede is worth slightly more now but that is mainly the players who we already had who have obviously continued to get experience. For 20m worth of spending our squad is nowhere near where it should be I am sure you would both agree.

[tomphil]

Post the crazy revolving door period where managers were employed for days rather than seasons then they've all been very similar, clownpants aside. That period was a mess for many reasons and whilst some things will never change under this are in a period of stability.

Even if Coyle was a good manager he'd still have had a tough time winning fans over here like GB, Lambert and Mowbray did for obvious reasons. Thing is apart from Bowyer already here Lambert. Coyle, Mowbray ALL arrived under the usual odd circumstances via the usual channels. All off the scrapheap with poor reps at that time, all quite experienced and all had a promotion to their names so it's fair to assume and new one would be virtually the same.

Lambert & Mowbray are similar, average at best and not a disaster at worst, Coyle was always going to be a shocker but we'll assume he got the gig because he undercut everyone else and we were skint. So there's a 2 out of 3 chance that the next would be average and 1 in 3 it would be a nightmare again.

[Mercer]

2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Mercer you said this stuff all before and it never happens Mercer.  - Really?  If you want to be pedantic then look at my postings on the day/day before Kean resignation announced or my postings on the Rhodes deal from Huddersfield on the day it was done but hours before it was announced!  Couldn't care less what you think but stop this blanket rubbishing. 

Mowbray wont walk away from Rovers and very much his job is under any threat from the owners. My view and view of many away from this messsgeboard.  Why do you think I've stuck £25 on him to go at 20/1 - on a whim or because I found £25 in an old jacket and thought what can I waste that on!?

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by Mercer

[Swanson]

https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2020/01/06/report-burnley-set-to-battle-three-championship-sides-for-differ/

This is clearly not happening.

[Bigdoggsteel]

9 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

@JoeH @Bigdoggsteel this was my analysis on our squad development.

We have some players that we have brought in, notably the obvious 2 that I dont consider as assets. You can attach an arbitary and random figure to them but for me they are liabilities because we are stuck with their long contracts as there would be no chance of anyone buying them. Weve also added some new deadwood of a different type, younger players to be fair but none of whom have done anything to warrant a buyer coming in for them.

We had plenty of deadwood but their contracts were soon to expire and they were in addition to what we have now. We had Lenihan and Williams and Mulgrew then, Adarabioyo now. As bad as Hoban, Greer, Brown and Ward were, they were not instead of Lenihan etc, they were in addition to what we already had and have.

Our squad I will concede is worth slightly more now but that is mainly the players who we already had who have obviously continued to get experience. For 20m worth of spending our squad is nowhere near where it should be I am sure you would both agree.

So, wait, does Dack not count? 

Rothwell , Armstrong and Chapman have shown me enough to suggest they could all go on to do well if used correctly.   Armstrong alone is probably worth £4-5 million now. 

So the 4 of them alone is £20 million plus.

Nobody in that team that went down who left could command a fee. 

Should be better after spending £20 million for sure and we have all discussed Gallagher and Brereton to death over the last few days. 

My point is simple this squad is a lot better. It's just being used very badly. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 minute ago, Swanson said:

https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2020/01/06/report-burnley-set-to-battle-three-championship-sides-for-differ/

This is clearly not happening.

Joke of an article 

[G Somerset Rover]

1 hour ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I watched that video that Chaddy posted earlier regarding our new enhanced training methods. It all looks very slick and well thought out but as soon as we take to the field there is absolutely no evidence in our play that any of it is working. I'm not a stick in the mud but there seemed to be a lot of theoretical work and gym work but I didn't see much evidence of us actually playing full size games.

The other thought for me, especially with these Sat-Weds games - is Mowbray muddling the players’ thoughts (his love for square pegs / round holes aside). Is he making them overthink, giving them too much information on previous opponents, upcoming players etc. We all know he muddles himself silly sometimes, so I’d imagine it’s rubbing off on the players and could go a little way to explaining our ‘performances’ when they don’t get much time in between matches. 

Edited January 6, 2020 by Gavlar Somerset Rover!

[Pedro]

7 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

So, wait, does Dack not count? 

Rothwell , Armstrong and Chapman have shown me enough to suggest they could all go on to do well if used correctly.   Armstrong alone is probably worth £4-5 million now. 

So the 4 of them alone is £20 million plus.

Nobody in that team that went down who left could command a fee. 

Should be better after spending £20 million for sure and we have all discussed Gallagher and Brereton to death over the last few days. 

My point is simple this squad is a lot better. It's just being used very badly. 

I don't think that Armstrong valuation is realistic. I think we'd only get the same back what we paid. 

I agree that if used correctly, the players you mention would do well - in turn their value will increase. Sadly, Mowbray seems to shackle creativity and favours a series of sideways and backwards passes.

[JacknOry]

Not sure what the point is arguing the value or quality of the two squads. It is quite obvious that we would be worth a bit more now after selling off everything of value and not reinvesting it - we had little choice but to hope our academy could produce and try to work off bargain signings/freebies. Nyambe, Travis, Lenihan, all established now and on their own probably add more value to our squad than what we had left prior to relegation due to their age and experience in this league. They are now throwing in Buckley as well as they probably see some profit in him (though he doesnt look physically capable yet for me). 

Dack, Rothwell, Chapman, Samual, Davenport and Bell were youngish cheap punts on potential and while Dack is the standout, the others wouldn't have lost all that much in value. Evans might get a fee of less than a mil. That's about it really. 

The issue is the 15 million we spent on strikers. Are they worth that 15 million? Would we get that back for them? Not a chance in hell. AA, has pace, scores the odd goal - might get similar to what we paid if lucky. Gallagher, works hard, has the physical attributes to be a good player but doesn't seemingly know how to use them - 2 mil at best. BB, what to say really? Could his time here have been better if he was plunged into the striker spot earlier rather than being asked to play on the wing? Either way, you aint getting a mil for that boy judging on what we have seen so far.     

Edited January 6, 2020 by JacknOry

[Mercer]

15 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

So, wait, does Dack not count? 

Rothwell , Armstrong and Chapman have shown me enough to suggest they could all go on to do well if used correctly.   Armstrong alone is probably worth £4-5 million now. 

So the 4 of them alone is £20 million plus.

Nobody in that team that went down who left could command a fee. 

Should be better after spending £20 million for sure and we have all discussed Gallagher and Brereton to death over the last few days. 

My point is simple this squad is a lot better. It's just being used very badly. 

If Rovers could get that much money for Armstrong, and I think they'd be lucky to get even a third of that, he'd have to go for me.

I think he has one asset and that is pace.  I think technically, he's extremely poor and doesn't have a football brain.

Furthermore, I think he has a very average goal scoring record for a striker with a career average of about 1 goal every 4 or 5 games (though quite prodigious against Brereton / Gallagher for Rovers).

Edited January 6, 2020 by Mercer

[chaddyrovers]

23 minutes ago, Mercer said:

- Really?  If you want to be pedantic then look at my postings on the day/day before Kean resignation announced or my postings on the Rhodes deal from Huddersfield on the day it was done but hours before it was announced! 

years ago. 

you constantly linked Rhodes with Bolton and Wigan when Dougie Freedman and Coyle were at their clubs? never move there.

you have suggested a tipping point a number of times before? did it ever happen 

 

23 minutes ago, Mercer said:

Why do you think I've stuck £25 on him to go at 20/1 - on a whim or because I found £25 in an old jacket and thought what can I waste that on!?

my point was I dont see him under any threat of losing his job from the owners

18 minutes ago, Swanson said:

https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2020/01/06/report-burnley-set-to-battle-three-championship-sides-for-differ/

This is clearly not happening.

Dyche signed Ben Gibson for millions and never used much. 

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by chaddyrovers

[Mercer]

10 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

my point was I dont see 

Dyche signed Ben Gibson for millions and never used much. 

 

Dyche has done an absolutely magnificent job for Burnley.

To think he was appointed by Burnley, after being interviewed by Burnley in an office in Blackburn!, just days after Kean left Rovers.

Burnley got Dyche, we got Berg.  Enough said!

Edited January 6, 2020 by Mercer

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ewood Ace said:

The only players that you have us making a profit on are players who have come through our academy and therefore any money received for them is a profit. 

I don't see how you can't assign Travis rise to Mowbray... yes he was stumbled into the team because of injuries, but that's how 75% of youth players end up breaking through into the first team these days. Just because our biggest assets happen to be academy graduates, doesn't mean all of TM's transfer dealings are crap.

For every Bradley Dack there's a Ben Gladwin.

For every Lewis Travis there's a Willem Tomlinson.

I don't think anybody could genuinely say that this team is worse off than it was three years ago. The squad is generally younger, has much more transfer value within it, more youth players are worth more money than back then too. Marcus Antonsson was a good loan signing, Adam Armstrong for me, whilst utilised poorly, is a great signing. I think Joe Rothwell has proved to be worth well more than the pittance we paid for him too. 

It's VERY 50/50, but to suggest that TM's transfer business has been a complete failure is silly. When Sam Gallagher was first looked at as an option, who could have dreamed he'd have turned out so shit. You'd expect at least for him to be as good as his first season with Blackburn, even if he hadn't improved at all.

I don't blame Sam Gallagher missing disgustingly easy chances on the manager... I don't think anybody else should either.

 

 

[Sparks Rover]

7 minutes ago, JoeH said:

 When Sam Gallagher was first looked at as an option, who could have dreamed he'd have turned out so shit. 

 

 

Errrr, me.  I remember Bolton at home in the relegation season and he was a shit player then.....someones got their hand in the till as far as I'm concerned.  He was shit then and he's even more shit now.

Edited January 6, 2020 by Sparks Rover

[Guest]

Just now, Sparks Rover said:

Errrr, me.  I remember Bolton at home in the relegation season and he was a shit player then.....someones got their hand in the till as far as I'm concerned.  He was shit then and he's even more shit now.

He grabbed at least an Adam Armstrong amount of goals in that relegation side though and looked twice the player he does now. I don't blame Tony Mowbray for how shit Sam Gallagher was infront of goal at Birmingham at the weekend for example, two of them I could of put in!

[Stuart]

2 hours ago, Amo said:

Like removing the man who blew £12m on two duds?

You spelled rewarding wrong.

[Fraserkirky]

46 minutes ago, Swanson said:

https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2020/01/06/report-burnley-set-to-battle-three-championship-sides-for-differ/

This is clearly not happening.

Ryan Porteous at Hibs, is younger, cheaper and better

[DE.]

56 minutes ago, JoeH said:

When Sam Gallagher was first looked at as an option, who could have dreamed he'd have turned out so shit.

In fairness I remember a lot of people being very uneasy with the fee we were playing for Gallagher. I don't think many thought he'd turn out this bad but it wasn't a piece of transfer business everyone - on here at least - was on board with. Far from it. 

As far as whether the team now is better than the team we went down with - yes, it is but I'd only say marginally. Simply by virtue of Lowe being nowhere near the club we're in a significantly better position in midfield at least.

I'd say defensively we're not a whole lot better. Lenihan, Williams and Nyambe were already here in 16/17. Tosin is a loan so not our player. Bell is awful. Walton is worse than Raya. Bennett is a piss poor right back and again was already here when Mowbray arrived. Mowbray has failed massively in regards to improving the defence.

Midfield is definitely better. Don't think many would argue that.

Up front we're still relying on Graham, who's now three years older and less effective. We've wasted £12m on Gallagher and Brereton who look far from the finished article. I understand that Emnes and Joao were loans but in terms of present impact (and long term losses) they are an improvement on Gallagher/Brereton IMV. I would include Samuel but firstly he's crap and secondly Mowbray seems to see him as a wide midfielder.

So overall 1/3 areas of the team improved, with the other two no better and in fact I would argue the attack might be worse as it stands. 

Mowbray's transfer business was good in League 1 but look at the budget he had compared to everybody else. We were able to go out and buy one of the best players in the entire league. We had the money to afford the likes of Smallwood, Armstrong, Antonsson and Samuel who had all been playing a level higher the season previous. Mowbray himself repeatedly said that season it would be embarrassing if we didn't get promoted with the resources we had available, and I'm sure I remember him saying he'd walk if he didn't get us up.

In terms of the Championship I think his transfer business is very poor. I'm not sure he's brought in a single permanent signing that's improved us and has actually been extremely negligent with the budget spending so much on two misfiring strikers that we are now looking at FFP sanctions. I wouldn't trust the bloke with another penny. 

Edited January 6, 2020 by DE.

[chaddyrovers]

39 minutes ago, Mercer said:

Dyche has done an absolutely magnificent job for Burnley.

To think he was appointed by Burnley, after being interviewed by Burnley in an office in Blackburn!, just days after Kean left Rovers.

Burnley got Dyche, we got Berg.  Enough said!

Did I say otherwise? But he has wasted millions there on signings who haven't performed for him just like other managers

And to think that Burnley fans were ringing and texting in to BBC Radio Lancs complaining about Dyche's appointment there. 

 

19 minutes ago, Fraserkirky said:

Ryan Porteous at Hibs, is younger, cheaper and better

excellent suggestion