match thread Reading (A)

[Mattyblue]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

I think it’s refreshing when people realise that their emotive rants were unnecessary and feel able to change their opinion.

Of course, but don’t take the moral high ground with others if they haven’t as yet changed theirs too.

[Stuart]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

I think it’s refreshing when people realise that their emotive rants were unnecessary and feel able to change their opinion.

Flakey.

 

[Paul Mani]

Just now, Mattyblue said:

Of course, but don’t take the moral high ground with others if they haven’t as yet changed theirs too.

Touché...I’m just glad I didn’t join in with the ‘Mowbray out’ furore tbh. It was pretty difficult to resist at times, such was the levels of vitriol and allegations levelled against him.

[Paul Mani]

Just now, Stuart said:

Flakey.

 

The ability of those who were emotional and situationally irrational to change their opinion isn’t flaky Stu. It says more about them as people...it’s cool to admit you were wrong mate. Try it.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Paul Mani

[Stuart]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

The ability of those who were emotional and situationally irrational to change their opinion isn’t flaky Stu. It says more about them as people...it’s cool to admit you were wrong mate. Try it.

Après toi. Mange tout, mange tout.

[DeeCee]

I was on the brink but after I said end of September to review , tbh I'm happier than I expected to be.

[Paul Mani]

Just now, Stuart said:

Après toi. Mange tout, mange tout.

Haha which of my common themes would you prefer I climb down on? The transfer thread where I fought the daily barrage with a message of “let’s wait and see until the end of the window?” OR The ‘Mowbray out’ thread where I tried desperately to add some context into the incessant pleas to sack a manager who’s done a great job for us?

Where did you sit in those discussions Stu? Have your views changed since?

[Stuart]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

Haha which of my common themes would you prefer I climb down on? The transfer thread where I fought the daily barrage with a message of “let’s wait and see until the end of the window?” OR The ‘Mowbray out’ thread where I tried desperately to add some context into the incessant pleas to sack a manager who’s done a great job for us?

Where did you sit in those discussions Stu? Have your views changed since?

Not really buddy.

The transfer window didn’t address our really problems and created even more problems in the area we are already fully stocked.

I think Mowbray peaked at West Brom (ironically with a brand of football that I’d prefer and that he has stated he no longer likes) and his L1 second place (having decided not to try to win the league) was a bit of a dead cat bounce. Would I sack him right now? No, but I do think we need some new ideas.

If I’m eating my words come the end of the season, I’ll be delighted mind.  

[Blue blood]

4 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

 

My reasoning for not judging transfers on league 1 is because people are trying to judge that level of transfers against what we currently have. We were a struggling side then, on a downward spiral, and desperate to get players in. We could only attract the likes of Whittingham and Caddis, but people forget Samuel got gols, Antonsson got goals, Dack, Downing, Bell have all turned out to have, at the time, improved the squad or continued to be important players. You write that transfer window off on the basis of two players - fine, but you should also expect it to be argued against. However, at the end of all of it, we got promoted as we should and now sit with a squad that consists of far superior players than he inherited.

Post edited so not too long. Again the point is missed - judging against league 1 standards for these players, as explained in the last post - many weren't that great. Antonsson being one example of that. Can't remember the whole thread but there were a fair number of failures in there too - Harper and Gladwin also spring to mind. I think though haven't checked that the success ratio was about 50:50 which isn't really all that great, and certainly not a good job. Think it would be the same the season after too. 

 

4 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

 

Our squad vs Reading:

Walton

Bennett Lenihan Williams Cunningham

Evans Travis

Downing Dack Armstrong

Gallagher

Bench: Nyambe, Johnson, Graham, Canada, Bell, Holtby, Buckley.

An absolute vast improvement.

 

I would hope it had improved in 4 or 5 transfer windows and that is not being disputed. Again think this is a false dichotomy - as it doesn't assess how many players it's taken to get to this, how much spent, the fact he inherited a squad from Clueless which is a hell of a handicap for a club. I think this point 1) has a very low bar of comparison 2) doesn't show the full picture therefore not showing the full extent of how good TM is in the transfer market. 

4 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

 

There's a big difference between criticising certain signings and considering Mowbray;s recruitment as a failure, which is what was being painted prior to my comments, and which you are now denying is the case. I'm not saying 100% of signings have been successful but it is in no way, shape or form been a failure.

 

Perhaps failure is perhaps too harsh a word, I would grant you that. However and the point I was making was it isn't good. And the last 2 seasons, up to this one, has been average to poor and not one of TMs strengths. Hopefully (early signs are  promising) we will look back on this season and see the overall performance in transfers has improved but up till now it's been 50:50 at best which to me is not good enough and we could do better with - that is the point being made. 

4 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

 

With reference to Brereton vs Holtby, you are comparing apples with pears. One is a player that is 29, had Champions League experience and hundreds of games at an elite level; the other is a 20 year old lad who had a lot of pressure and under 100 appearances at a second tier level. Not comparable. I'm not willing to write Brereton off after a season but I am willing to put my neck on the line that Holtby will be a good addition to our squad. What I did to come to that conclusion was look at the situations of either player (context) and form a judgement that isn't black and white in order to further a point I wanna make. BB hasn't shown enough so far but BB didn't choose his price tag either. I am willing to give him, and Mowbray, the benefit of the doubt for now.

The context of BB is that he hasn't performed. You aren't using the context regarding him. Also the issue is TM did chose his price tag and that is the problem - it was vastly over what it should be. 

 

4 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

"It feels like any criticism of TM gets you rather worked up so probably not worth continuing this debate. TM has done some good stuff and great stuff but I think, and have given reasons for, his transfers not being his strongest area. "

This line is pathetic and is just trying to take away from the discussion (exactly what 47er did too...shock). A lot of people have appreciated my posts, and I certainly haven't got worked up. It is tiring reading the same lines after lines though, especially when different posters at different times have addressed said issues- it disappears and then rears its head 3 weeks later but rewrapped in a different tone.

 

4 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

You are allowed to have a different opinion to me Blue Blood and, in truth, I thought our two posts were us discussing and not arguing. I'm sorry you've got the impression that I'm trying to stifle debate but a brief look back through the posts will see I haven't been. Indeed I think they have been appreciated by quite a few posters.  All talk of dramatic rhetoric and being worked up is just another way of trying to play the poster and not the point at hand. If you have points worth making, make them, regardless of whether you feel it will "work me up", which I can assure it almost certainly will not.

 

Not trying to play the poster whatsoever but the flair for dramatic rests with you. Firstly there were lines of that nature - do you want every transfer to be excellent (or some such) for example which is heightened retoric. 

Secondly we don't need to appeal to likes from other posters to validate points - hopefully our reasoning does that for us. 

Thirdly it seems you wanted TM out after 2 games. Now I am assuming you didn't want him out on the basis of 2 games but those 2 games on top of last season's issues, which include a history of hit and miss transfer dealings. It is only in the summer where it looks like our transfer business has picked up. 

Probably done to death now. But if in the pub I said to you I think TM has been poor to mediocre at transfer dealings, and your response was look at this last windows dealings and our form, I think my response would be: "well it's a bit early to make a judgement imo, but the indications are it has picked up. Let's hope you are right at the end of the season." We'd probably not be as far off as we might sound. 

If it's more this season is great like the last few have been, then respectfully I'd say the last 2 years haven't been good at all. Again this season looks better and I hope it does keep that way. 7-8 games isn't enough for me to make that verdict as yet though. 

[Mashed Potatoes]

2 hours ago, Stuart said:

Not really buddy.

The transfer window didn’t address our really problems and created even more problems in the area we are already fully stocked.

I think Mowbray peaked at West Brom (ironically with a brand of football that I’d prefer and that he has stated he no longer likes) and his L1 second place (having decided not to try to win the league) was a bit of a dead cat bounce. Would I sack him right now? No, but I do think we need some new ideas.

If I’m eating my words come the end of the season, I’ll be delighted mind.  

Our main problem to address was the defensive weakness - Mowbray signed a new goalkeeper, a new left back plus Tosun to compete as centre back and there has been a significant improvement in the goals per game conceded as a consequence. 

[Stuart]

Just now, Mashed Potatoes said:

Our main problem to address was the defensive weakness - Mowbray signed a new goalkeeper, a new left back plus Tosun to compete as centre back and there has been a significant improvement in the goals per game conceded as a consequence. 

We have a temporary loan situation. That just means it needs addressing again. Ergo it hasn’t really been addressed.

[JBiz]

24 minutes ago, Stuart said:

We have a temporary loan situation. That just means it needs addressing again. Ergo it hasn’t really been addressed.

For this season it’s addressed. Loans can be frowned upon but surely only someone desperate to point out fault would argue Walton isn’t (initially) an upgrade on David.

Perhaps after a good season we might have more choice about who our next permanent number one?

Edited September 26, 2019 by Harry The Bass

[Paul Mani]

7 hours ago, Harry The Bass said:

For this season it’s addressed. Loans can be frowned upon but surely only someone desperate to point out fault would argue Walton isn’t (initially) an upgrade on David.

Perhaps after a good season we might have more choice about who our next permanent number one?

Exactly right. Ultimately there are short and long term goals. The long term goals are achieved through funding the academy and creating a pipeline into the first team as well as buying hungry, talented players like Dack, Rothwell, Arma, Gally, BB etc with a view to developing them and in order to win you promotions and / or create revenue in the future.

The short term plan is to go up THIS season and that involves the introduction of top quality. We couldn’t afford to buy a Tosin or Walton plus wages and could get nowhere near a Johnson or Downing in their prime so what we do is loan them or pick them up later in their career to provide that injection of necessary quality over the short term.

Its straightforward enough really.

[Atko's Engine]

Plus I don't consider having a loan keeper is automatically a bad thing, so long as he is a decent standard; it's his ability that counts and so far a direct comparison between Raya's & Walton's performances is favourable to Walton pretty much across the board. 

Sheff Utd did ok with a loan keeper last year and he's back there again, so it needn't be a bar to success nor a season-only option if it suits all parties. And as pointed out above, maybe next summer there'll be richer pickings available than there were this summer.

[Mashed Potatoes]

8 hours ago, Stuart said:

We have a temporary loan situation. That just means it needs addressing again. Ergo it hasn’t really been addressed.

It is the same approach as adopted last season by Aston Villa and Sheffield United - seems pretty good to me

[47er]

39 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

The short term plan is to go up THIS season and that involves the introduction of top quality.

Is it? Really?

 When will top quality upfront be introduced then?

[JacknOry]

48 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Exactly right. Ultimately there are short and long term goals. The long term goals are achieved through funding the academy and creating a pipeline into the first team as well as buying hungry, talented players like Dack, Rothwell, Arma, Gally, BB etc with a view to developing them and in order to win you promotions and / or create revenue in the future.

The short term plan is to go up THIS season and that involves the introduction of top quality. We couldn’t afford to buy a Tosin or Walton plus wages and could get nowhere near a Johnson or Downing in their prime so what we do is loan them or pick them up later in their career to provide that injection of necessary quality over the short term.

Its straightforward enough really.

Not according to TM in the LT today. Wants top ten.

[philipl]

25 minutes ago, JacknOry said:

Not according to TM in the LT today. Wants top ten.

Hello,

Suppose he says promotion and we miss out - he has the fans hollering for his sacking.

Top Ten tells me he is pretty darned confident 10th is the very worst we will finish.

[Paul Mani]

44 minutes ago, 47er said:

Is it? Really?

 When will top quality upfront be introduced then?

We couldn’t even dream of affording top quality forwards. Even the loans want 40-70k a week in salaries. Hence why we have spent our money on the former category I outlined. Gally, Armstrong and BB are young and fit within our wage structure. The mandate therefore is to develop them and find a diamond. 

Again, just common sense really.

[JacknOry]

55 minutes ago, philipl said:

Hello,

Suppose he says promotion and we miss out - he has the fans hollering for his sacking.

Top Ten tells me he is pretty darned confident 10th is the very worst we will finish.

Hi,

He has been saying promotion quite a lot already actually. Which is why it is odd that he has now lessened his pre-stated targets.

[Paul Mani]

Just now, JacknOry said:

Hi,

He has been saying promotion quite a lot already actually. Which is why it is odd that he has now lessened his pre-stated targets.

Tbf I think the “Top ten” rhetoric is more of a nod to Venkys as he wants more money in January if we are in the top 10. Target is defo top 6 and promotion

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I don't care if he never mentions the " P " word as long as the team does the talking out on the pitch. There's too much attention given to managers interviews these days. Kenny never said much but the team did the talking for him.

[47er]

3 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

We couldn’t even dream of affording top quality forwards. Even the loans want 40-70k a week in salaries. Hence why we have spent our money on the former category I outlined. Gally, Armstrong and BB are young and fit within our wage structure. The mandate therefore is to develop them and find a diamond. 

Again, just common sense really.

is it? This  discussion started with me pointing out Norwich got one for nothing. Charlton got one better than any of our's, again for nothing.

Sorry, its not common sense, its bullshit. Clubs have been recently promoted with out spending £12M on the entire team.

Preston finished above us (again) last year and never spent anything like that, nor did they pay high wages. Burnley were the 5th highest profit-earners in the Premier League last season, they were promoted on a shoe-string.

Sorry, but our's is a scatter-gun approach, I don't believe there is the level of planning and competence needed for promotion and I don't expect it.

[Paul Mani]

15 minutes ago, 47er said:

is it? This  discussion started with me pointing out Norwich got one for nothing. Charlton got one better than any of our's, again for nothing.

Sorry, its not common sense, its bullshit. Clubs have been recently promoted with out spending £12M on the entire team.

Preston finished above us (again) last year and never spent anything like that, nor did they pay high wages. Burnley were the 5th highest profit-earners in the Premier League last season, they were promoted on a shoe-string.

Sorry, but our's is a scatter-gun approach, I don't believe there is the level of planning and competence needed for promotion and I don't expect it.

I think you’re misunderstanding the size of the wages paid at many of the clubs you have mentioned there. In any case, you just reeled off every pin up “we did it on the cheap” club. In reality they didn’t. 

Relax. The money spent is about par (fees and wages) with most clubs looking to get in the top six. There’s nothing scatter gun about that approach. It’s playing the % game. 

As far as your expectation of ‘a level of planning and competence “needed” for promotion’. I am genuinely interested to know what your experience of planning for such an event is and your take on what is “needed”. Don’t you also think it would be better if you actually knew what the plans were prior to judging. Apologies in advance if you do know.

[Leonard Venkhater]

8 hours ago, philipl said:

Hello,

Suppose he says promotion and we miss out - he has the fans hollering for his sacking.

Top Ten tells me he is pretty darned confident 10th is the very worst we will finish.

Under promise/overachieve. Very sensible..