match thread Reading (A)

[chaddyrovers]

8 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

What was your question, the one about the chances Gallagher had yesterday? I couldnt comment, I (presumably like yourself) didnt watch the game myself. I saw the chance he had which he blazed over when he should have scored. Have you heard the phrase when a striker is going through a dry spell and keeps missing chances, "at least hes getting into the right position."  I would consider how rarely Gallagher looks even likely to score to be a concern too. All this said, my comment about 0 goals in 8 league appearances (7 starts) is perfectly valid, our striker really must offer a goal threat, and I am entitled to question his place in the team if he continues to fail to do so. We need our striker to score goals.

I think our options in midfield are a reason to be optimistic, but your comments on Preston are a little strange. They definitely do have depth, especially in midfield like ourselves. Pearson, Gallagher, Johnson, Browne, Harrop, Bodin, Barkhuizen, Potts, Bayliss, Ledson. The main thing there though is the CONSISTENCY in the way that they play. They can mix it up in terms of personnel, but that system stays the same, the changed players slot straight in and as a result Neil is getting the very best from those players. Thats a further example of what regularity in way of playing can do. I think the likes of Holtby, Johnson and Downing would have potentially been unobtainable due to their wage demands, I suspect that Mowbray has got an advantage over Neil due to Prestons low wage cap. Preston have made a name for signing players for really low prices, Johnson for 50k, Barkhuizen dirt cheap from Morecambe, Browne (and Maguire) for peanuts from Ireland, and developed them into top Championship performers. If we could replicate that level of consistency and familiarity, then I would like to think that our quality of players could end up surpassing those at Preston.

Do you really think that Preston "couldnt dream" of having someone like Buckley on the bench?! Baring in mind that he has struggled when he has played physically, and Preston have signed Bayliss, a player who has really impressed for Coventry, who cost 2m and cant get on the bench. Or Nyambe?

I watched the full game live actually. How many chances do we actually created for our striker in the formation each game? Gallagher is working hard for the team. I disagree he should have scored from his chance but it should have been on target. The team needs goals from anywhere and at the minute we have this and we are not relying a 3 or 4 players to score the goals all the time

we can play different formations with our current squad. Maybe Preston cant play different formations. as the reason why they stick to that formation. Tho mainly Alex Neil has always played 4-2-3-1 system whether at Norwich or Preston. So its seems a system he believe him. Where as I believe you need different systems at this level for different situations and teams. 

Paying 2 million for a player from league 1 who cant get on the bench. tho you do like championing for league 1 players. You did once tell me we should have gone for Davies from Barnsley as 1st choice keeper here this season. This is guy who cant even get on the bench at Stoke. A team below us. Preston need a quality striker as some of fans were asking for. maybe that's why he should have spent that 2 mil on. 

You mention that Mowbray has got an advantage over Neil due to Preston low wage cap? Neil knew that when he took the job and the way Preston are run. He rejected the WBA job to stay at there and working under the same budget. I think he made the right decision for himself

[tomphil]

3 hours ago, K-Hod said:

Really happy with the result yesterday (obviously). When I got the notification on LiveScore that Reading had bagged, I got the usual anxiety, but it turns out it was unnecessary.

Something feels different about us this season, we certainly seem more steely and able to see games out, whereas last season we would have crumbled and drawn 2-2.

Early days yet, but I’m excited to see what this team can do!

As has been touched on this is where the new strength in depth should come in handy this season. Gallagher going off Graham coming on, Evans going off Johnson coming on, Holtby coming on, that kind of stuff can only help.

The defence still needs strengthening imo but the squad as a whole is stronger now and we've got to give the gaffer credit for that he's moving it in the right direction again now.

Edited September 22, 2019 by tomphil

[Guest]

Next five games:

Luton Town (H)

Nottingham Forest (H)

QPR (A)

Huddersfield Town (H) {On Sky}

Birmingham City (A)

 

Honestly based off of the Reading and Millwall performances, I’m expecting 11 points for the next 5. Would put us on 24 from 13 games.

But what about you, 5 games, what can you see us picking up?

[roversfan99]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

I watched the full game live actually. How many chances do we actually created for our striker in the formation each game? Gallagher is working hard for the team. I disagree he should have scored from his chance but it should have been on target. The team needs goals from anywhere and at the minute we have this and we are not relying a 3 or 4 players to score the goals all the time

we can play different formations with our current squad. Maybe Preston cant play different formations. as the reason why they stick to that formation. Tho mainly Alex Neil has always played 4-2-3-1 system whether at Norwich or Preston. So its seems a system he believe him. Where as I believe you need different systems at this level for different situations and teams. 

Paying 2 million for a player from league 1 who cant get on the bench. tho you do like championing for league 1 players. You did once tell me we should have gone for Davies from Barnsley as 1st choice keeper here this season. This is guy who cant even get on the bench at Stoke. A team below us. Preston need a quality striker as some of fans were asking for. maybe that's why he should have spent that 2 mil on. 

You mention that Mowbray has got an advantage over Neil due to Preston low wage cap? Neil knew that when he took the job and the way Preston are run. He rejected the WBA job to stay at there and working under the same budget. I think he made the right decision for himself

It is not enough for a striker to work hard, he needs to score goals. Like I said and you ignored, a good striker even during a bad patch will still find chances coming to him, showing hes getting into the right positions. Of course there is somewhat of a grace period considering hes new (sort of) but ultimately we cannot afford our striker to not contribute goals to our team. Successful teams do get goals from various places but your striker has to get goals, last season our striker got 15 goals, weve spent big money on Gallagher and he needs to score goals to merit his place.

If you dont feel that employing a consistent way of playing is often the key to getting consistent results then we will just have to agree to disagree but the 3 promoted sides from last season back up my point. All teams with a set way of playing, with players knowing their roles, meaning that if they make a change in personnel, whether enforced or to give them a different attribute, they can slot in with minimum fuss and keep the momentum.

My point was that Buckley is not a player Preston "couldnt dream" of having on their bench. He may be a decent prospect but as of yet he hasnt impacted upon the first team and looks quite a bit off being ready to me. With the competition in that area I suspect a loan spell may have been better for him in the lower leagues, to let him get kicked about, to see how he can handle it. Of course the timing of the Holtby deal meant that this wasnt the avenue we went down.

I know, but it is common sense that a manager with bigger resources is at an advantage to one with lower resources. That sentence is not an opinion, it is objective.

[Paul Mani]

2 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

The teams you refer to Paul may rotate personnel, mainly because of the sheer volumes of games that being involved in four major competitions means. However they very rarely change the way the play. Players come in and out but the shape stays the same.The have a system and they stick to it. When we won the Prem we had a very basic pattern of play that never varied and worked very well for us.

Whilst I agree that we make some pretty big changes I have to say I disagree about other teams not changing theirs. I’ve seen games recently where City have changed their shape three times in a game, where Liverpool have gone front to back and played Origi in wide forward positions, Spurs play with a different formation most weeks as do Chelsea and Wolves. In fact I can’t recall think of many teams who play a set XI and pattern. 

Times have changed. Of course there has to be balance and I think all of the teams will settle as the season goes by but to compare it to our PL winning team 20 odd years ago to today’s teams is difficult. The intensity of games and training is much harder now. The culture of the game has changed so much during that time with the Wengers, Klopp and Pep effect.

[Admiral Nelsen]

Just now, JoeHarvey said:

Next five games:

Luton Town (H)

Nottingham Forest (H)

QPR (A)

Huddersfield Town (H) {On Sky}

Birmingham City (A)

 

Honestly based off of the Reading and Millwall performances, I’m expecting 11 points for the next 5. Would put us on 24 from 13 games.

But what about you, 5 games, what can you see us picking up?

I'd look at Luton & Hudds as the games that I'd probably 'expect' (dangerous in this league) to win.

Forest & QPR are picking us results, and Brum have only lost once at home so far, albeit with some kind-ish fixtures. Four points from those three plus two wins from the winnable home games would mean 10 from 15, which is automatic promotion form, so I'd be very happy with that.

 

[roversfan99]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

Whilst I agree that we make some pretty big changes I have to say I disagree about other teams not changing theirs. I’ve seen games recently where City have changed their shape three times in a game, where Liverpool have gone front to back and played Origi in wide forward positions, Spurs play with a different formation most weeks as do Chelsea and Wolves. In fact I can’t recall think of many teams who play a set XI and pattern. 

Times have changed. Of course there has to be balance and I think all of the teams will settle as the season goes by but to compare it to our PL winning team 20 odd years ago to today’s teams is difficult. The intensity of games and training is much harder now. The culture of the game has changed so much during that time with the Wengers, Klopp and Pep effect.

Your examples are a little strange, and somewhat back up what many of us are saying, that the best bet is to stick to and master the one formation, and when you want to adjust dependant on the fixture, you do so via changing players within that set system, rather than constantly changing formation from game to game.

Liverpool always play that 433, your example of Origi played wide forward is an example of what we could do, within the parameters of a fixed and consistent way of playing, being flexible more in terms of personnel rather than shape. But their players are clearly always aware of the roles within Klopps team.

Again, City rarely move away from their 433, Pep's consistent way of playing tends to make his teams almost machine like, and more than anyone else can get away with bringing new players in, Fernandinho CB is very much alike to playing Mascherano, Yaya Toure and Javi Martinez in that position in the past.

Wolves always play with 3 at the back. If they want to be a bit more attacking, they often change it up via their wing backs, picking Vinagre and in particular the converted wing back Adama Traore over Jonny Otto and Doherty. But again, the system stays the same, 3 centre backs, 2 wing backs, 2 central midfielders with a third slightly ahead and 2 up front. They have struggled with the increased rotation in personnel required compared to last season, Patricio, Doherty, Bennett, Coady, Boly, Jonny, Dendonker, Neves, Moutinho, Jiminez and Jota was their team almost every single week.

Chelsea and Tottenham are more unclear examples. Both seem to be struggling for consistency both in terms of system and results at the moment.

[tomphil]

Why are we comparing to top level teams and tactics ?

Some might say that is the problem in itself at times, applying champions league style philosophy to bread and butter championship needs.

Keep it simple, get the basics right first. Square pegs in square holes, i think yesterday showed get the starting balance right and you'll get a much more solid fluent performance.

[Admiral Nelsen]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

Whilst I agree that we make some pretty big changes I have to say I disagree about other teams not changing theirs. I’ve seen games recently where City have changed their shape three times in a game, where Liverpool have gone front to back and played Origi in wide forward positions, Spurs play with a different formation most weeks as do Chelsea and Wolves. In fact I can’t recall think of many teams who play a set XI and pattern. 

Times have changed. Of course there has to be balance and I think all of the teams will settle as the season goes by but to compare it to our PL winning team 20 odd years ago to today’s teams is difficult. The intensity of games and training is much harder now. The culture of the game has changed so much during that time with the Wengers, Klopp and Pep effect.

I'm not sure I'd go quite as far as that, there are still plenty of teams that have a very consistent formation/style of play/personel which are only tweaked, which is different to Mowbray's approach.

I think there are strengths and wekanesses to both approaches, and which is best probably depends more on the resources to build a squad more than anything else.

One thing I'd definitely say in Mowbray's favour is that our changes look to be based on him doing thorough homework on the opposition. I don't think we've seen much evidence of that from any of our post-Big Sam managers, so from that point of view I don't mind him taking his 'reactive' approach, because at least he's doing it properly.

[USABlue]

19 hours ago, RV Blue said:

Wonder if Travis was one of the ill players? He looked to be blowing out of his arse in the last 10/15 which is unusual for him.

He did look proper knackered didn't he.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, USABlue said:

He did look proper knackered didn't he.

It's pretty rare that when you have an illness in the team, especially when you're travelling to away games, that it only affects one player. Maybe Travis was suffering from a bit of " Rothwellitis ".

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, tomphil said:

Why are we comparing to top level teams and tactics ?

Some might say that is the problem in itself at times, applying champions league style philosophy to bread and butter championship needs.

Keep it simple, get the basics right first. Square pegs in square holes, i think yesterday showed get the starting balance right and you'll get a much more solid fluent performance.

Yeah and even the best centre backs in the Prem have a habit of setting up goals for the opposition on a regular basis - Keane for England the other day being a great example.

[chaddyrovers]

30 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

It is not enough for a striker to work hard, he needs to score goals. Like I said and you ignored, a good striker even during a bad patch will still find chances coming to him, showing hes getting into the right positions. Of course there is somewhat of a grace period considering hes new (sort of) but ultimately we cannot afford our striker to not contribute goals to our team. Successful teams do get goals from various places but your striker has to get goals, last season our striker got 15 goals, weve spent big money on Gallagher and he needs to score goals to merit his place.

If you dont feel that employing a consistent way of playing is often the key to getting consistent results then we will just have to agree to disagree but the 3 promoted sides from last season back up my point. All teams with a set way of playing, with players knowing their roles, meaning that if they make a change in personnel, whether enforced or to give them a different attribute, they can slot in with minimum fuss and keep the momentum.

 

yet again you failed to answer a simple question, how many chances do we create for our strikers per game? do you have this stat? 

how many chances has Gallagher had since start of the season?

[philipl]

Pretty certain Travis was under the weather. Mowbray said there were other players affected.

Good point about how Rovers seem prone to these bugs. Then spending six hours on a coach because of traffic jams with one person throwing up perhaps it isn't all that surprising folk ended up ill.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

yet again you failed to answer a simple question, how many chances do we create for our strikers per game? do you have this stat? 

how many chances has Gallagher had since start of the season?

Not enough ! On a more serious note your view of what constitutes a chance may vary with mine so that stat is a matter of opinion.. The one that Gallagher put over the cross bar was a definite chance for me, he should have worked the goalkeeper at the very least.

[Mattyblue]

Just now, philipl said:

Pretty certain Travis was under the weather. Mowbray said there were other players affected.

Good point about how Rovers seem prone to these bugs. Then spending six hours on a coach because of traffic jams with one person throwing up perhaps it isn't all that surprising folk ended up ill.

Other clubs go on the train. Two hours or so to London from Preston and then a half hour train to Reading.

Got to be preferable than a 6 hour coach journey trying to get down the M6/M40/M4 on a Friday afternoon.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Mattyblue

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Not enough ! On a more serious note your view of what constitutes a chance may vary with mine so that stat is a matter of opinion.. The one that Gallagher put over the cross bar was a definite chance for me, he should have worked the goalkeeper at the very least.

Gallagher's shot yesterday should have been on target just like his header at Fulham away

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Gallagher's shot yesterday should have been on target just like his header at Fulham away

That's my worry, he may be hardworking but is he a blunt instrument like Samuel ? Obviously you need to be hitting the target to have a chance of scoring.

[rigger]

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

That's my worry, he may be hardworking but is he a blunt instrument like Samuel ? Obviously you need to be hitting the target to have a chance of scoring.

In some operation a blunt instrument is necessary 

[Roverthechimp]

Cred to Dack for battling and scoring rather than falling over and screaming for a penalty.

Wish all players would do that! 

[1864roverite]

The simplest approach is to take each game as it comes, like TM appears to be doing. Send the right team out to win the game in front of them.

[LDRover]

I think there's an awful lot being put on being 'able to adapt' to different formations. My lad plays at  a reasonable under 18s standard and they seamlessly drop into 4-4-2, 4-3-3 and 3-5-2 during games when needed so I'm pretty sure full time pros have the ability to do so too. One thing is for sure, it's hardly worthy of the gushing praise I'm seeing on here.

[USABlue]

4 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Keeping all those midfielders happy when they won't be getting game time, or even making the bench is the other side of that coin. 

Not about keeping them happy so much as it is they EARN the right to the shirt.  Problems come with Mowbary continually giving the shirt to those that may not be our best player or the player in form.  Players see this too, think how that must affect them to see players picked ahead if them who are not as good.  Hard to argue with his selections if we are winning though.

[JacknOry]

4th in the form table from the last 6 games. I would expect wins from the next two at home.

[chaddyrovers]

30 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

That's my worry, he may be hardworking but is he a blunt instrument like Samuel ? Obviously you need to be hitting the target to have a chance of scoring.

he may be hardworking? No he is hard working. works his socks off. 

How many chances has he really had? maybe at best 3 or 4. He took his chance at Sheff Utd and scored a good heading goal