match thread Reading (A)

[Paul Mani]

5 minutes ago, Stuart said:

It really is a simple question. Don’t overthink it! 

What’s the question?

[roversfan99]

@Paul Mani i found this comment a little strange: "Gally £5m and 8 games in a league where Bamfords get traded at 7-10m?" 

Bamford is a very good, proven Championship striker. He scored goals at Derby, Leeds and Boro where he won player of the year at this level. Gallaghers goal to game ratio in his overall record as a Championship striker is very undewhelming. Not saying we could have afford Bamfords wages or whatever but just found the comparison a strange one considering the difference in quality.

Even with Breretons age, the fee does matter as @Blue blood rightly points out. But ultimately, prior to his injury he was not really close to getting a start, he still seems a way off the first team, we cant really spend 7m on someone so far away from making any sort of impact, its a bizarre situation considering how far away he looks when he does feature and how much hed already played for Foresr prior. And crucially is there any justification on what we have seen that Brereton or even Gally will be "banging in PL goals" or even payback their fees?

Also, Rodwell was not fit for purpose as a centre back and Samuel scored 5 League goals and none after November.

I would suggest that Mowbrays transfer dealings up until now are very mixed. I suspect that this summers business will prove to be his best window, that being said all the question marks for me surround the big money striker again. But we cant make definitive judgements on any yet or rule any as successes or failures. But I am optimistic.

[Amo]

Brereton has to go down as a flop. For that kinda money, Rovers needed someone who could hit the ground running. In the dozen or so appearances that he's made he's looked out of his depth. Luckily he has time on his side to turn it around but I wouldn't be surprised if he has to leave Rovers to revive his career (a la Kevin Davies, James Beattie etc).

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Amo said:

Brereton has to go down as a flop. For that kinda money, Rovers needed someone who could hit the ground running.

The idea of signing someone unproven could be considered a poor move in anyone's opinion, but at 20 years old, to say Brereton is a flop is a little odd to me. Let's wait and see what happens. Not every transfer works out the way clubs plan, and whilst Brereton hasn't proven he's worth £7m yet, it isn't his fault nor responsibility to bare how much we paid for him.

[Amo]

21 minutes ago, JoeHarvey said:

The idea of signing someone unproven could be considered a poor move in anyone's opinion, but at 20 years old, to say Brereton is a flop is a little odd to me. Let's wait and see what happens. Not every transfer works out the way clubs plan, and whilst Brereton hasn't proven he's worth £7m yet, it isn't his fault nor responsibility to bare how much we paid for him.

If we had to judge the signing of Brereton at this juncture, it would be safe to say he has not been a success. It doesn't seem like we know what to do with him, his confidence looks shot and we've seen little potential of the £7m we're paying for him. That doesn't mean he can't turn it around.

Obviously the price tag isn't his doing but it is what it is. That's the money we've chosen to invest in him, and we need to see some return on it.  

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, JoeHarvey said:

The idea of signing someone unproven could be considered a poor move in anyone's opinion, but at 20 years old, to say Brereton is a flop is a little odd to me. Let's wait and see what happens. Not every transfer works out the way clubs plan, and whilst Brereton hasn't proven he's worth £7m yet, it isn't his fault nor responsibility to bare how much we paid for him.

It isnt his fault but of course his price tag should play a part in how we judge him, you are bound to look of the opportunity cost.

Coversely, Dack is even more of a good signing due to the low fee we paid.

You are right, not all transfers work out as plan, those that dont will be criticised.

[K-Hod]

1 hour ago, JoeHarvey said:

The idea of signing someone unproven could be considered a poor move in anyone's opinion, but at 20 years old, to say Brereton is a flop is a little odd to me. Let's wait and see what happens. Not every transfer works out the way clubs plan, and whilst Brereton hasn't proven he's worth £7m yet, it isn't his fault nor responsibility to bare how much we paid for him.

How long are we supposed to wait though? 
Thing is, if he’s not getting in the match day squad at the moment and the money could have been used better on other areas of the pitch, it can’t really be said that it was money well spent though, can it?

[Blue blood]

3 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

I don’t intend on referring to all of this and of course it’s all about opinions but here goes:

The league one signings overall were very good (hence promotion) and Samuel hit 10 goals before being displaced by our current player of the year and then picking up a long term injury.

Holtby and Tosin can be seen as positive signings based on their pedigree and the clubs they’ve played for.

BB is just turned 20. “A colossal waste of money” Wow

Gally £5m and 8 games in a league where Bamfords get traded at 7-10m? 

Rodwell was very good for us in games last season. He’s good player, but a weird guy.

Norwich are one of the exceptions to the rule. This is like bottom half PL teams saying they should be trying to win the league because Leicester did it. Of course there’s a model there but a lot of external things must line up for it to work.

Some of Bowyers signings were excellent.  But they were in a different market. Plus you have the benefit of hindsight. Maybe in a few years you will see the likes of Rothwell, Dack, Armstrong, BB and Gally banging goals in the PL for whoever and think...maybe it wasn’t all that bad after all!

Finally, In the interests of balance you should have mentioned the managers development and integration of youth into our team. 

You may have simply been countering a previous post so I apologise if so. But if you’re neglecting all of this then I fear that is you who is being disengenuous. 

I look forward to your transfer review. 

Yes it was to do with transfers, our not great performance with them, and being able to do well on it on a budget. It wasn't aimed as an overall evaluation of TMs time here, but evaluating how we have done in the market and how we could be getting better bang for our bucks. 

Respectfully disagree with you on most of your points! Although that is the joy of football having different opinions. League 1 imo was the worst set of signings we've had - although the omission of a proper defender the year after runs that close. So many flopped, like Whittingham & Caddis, and we wasted the use of the loans from bigger clubs. Interestingly Samuel caused the most debate, I thought he did ok but a lot of people argued quite convincingly otherwise. Given he was one of our biggest signings money wise (for a league 1 club it was a decent amount) and his form trailing off dramatically I think it's hard to call him a good signing. 

Not sure we can class players as good because of their pedigree - Whittingham being a recent example of that. Indeed we could go back to a certain central midfield pairing on relegation to show pedigree isn't a guarentee of success. Think both will be good for us mind, just want to hold fire on this till they actually are. 

Your Leicester analogy is not a like for like comparison whatsoever. The fact that 2 teams last season alone did it shows that it wasn't a once only event. It seems there have regularly been teams who have got promoted on a limited budget, Blackpool as one spring to mind, and many more have gotten very close to doing so via the playoffs. A one off like Leicester is a very different kettle of fish, not least because there's no top 4 / big 6 domenence in the Championship. 

Not sure Bowyer's signings are that different. Have prices really risen that much? Both sets of transfers happened in the championship and we pay competitive wages if not too whack in both cases too. 

Whether they go on to bang them in in the premiership is irrelevant imo unless it's either a) with Rovers or b) earned them a transfer to the prem for banging them in at Rovers. Kevin Davis is a great example of a bad transfer - blew a huge chunk of our budget and did nothing for us. Just because he came good later didn't make him a good signing for us. On this point Armstrong, Gally and Bereton haven't exactly been banging it in in the championship so it's hard to see them doing it in the Prem. Hard to use a hypothetical argument, especially when the existing evidence points against that.

And whilst the first two have shown some talent Bereton patiently looks out of his depth in the championship and struggles to contribute much positive to us. If that isn't a waste of money for a 4th/5th choice striker who offers nothing then nothing will be. Even our seemingly positive summer window (too early to tell but happily it's looking good) if we look at who we brought for under the £7 mill - you see how much of a waste Bereton is in comparison. Given that Johnson, Downing and a few loan fees come clearly under that, our seemingly positive window also shouts out Bereton is a waste of money. Signings for less in the championship - the Hibs chap who went to Villa for half of Bereton's fee for example - shouts out Bereton is a waste of money. Being 20 doesn't negate that - some players aren't good enough and won't come good enough, BB falls into that category. 

I'm not trying to be down on TM but I do think transfers have been a weakness. I hope this has improved and this summer may have seen us turn the corner on that but so far i struggle to see this as a plus and I'm equally convinced teams on a budget can do well in the championship. 

[DeeCee]

Just now, K-Hod said:

How long are we supposed to wait though? 
Thing is, if he’s not getting in the match day squad at the moment and the money could have been used better on other areas of the pitch, it can’t really be said that it was money well spent though, can it?

At the moment it's not money well spent. It may well be in the future but I agree that fee could have been better used at the time.

[47er]

3 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

the Hibs chap who went to Villa for half of Bereton's fee for example - shouts out Bereton is a waste of money.

McGinn? Looking terrific in the Premiership. Great buy.

[Dreams of 1995]

16 hours ago, Blue blood said:

Firstly you miss out the very hit and miss league 1 season out. (Smart move btw if disingenuous). That missed out clangers such as Whittingham Samuel and Caddis. You can't judge a mans signing for a league 1 outfit when we are now competing at a higher level. Of course we struggled to attract high quality and as such players like Whittingham and Caddis slipped through; Samuel is rather harsh to criticise him, he got some goals in League 1 and has been injured for a while. He also bought Dack in League 1 - quality!! Did you expect him to be signing world beaters constantly? Not every signing is a success, and that's across the board.

Secondly throwing in Holtby and the City lad as positives, both of whom I think will turn out good btw, but on the basis of one or two appearances each is also a little bit disingenuous. One or two games (have either played 2 games?) is not enough to judge a player on but you massage the stats. I don't think you can deny Holtby will improve the team. Vastly experienced at high level, played a lot of football in recent years. Maybe Adarabaiyo is a leap to say he is a positive but from what I have seen he is far better than Mulgrew at centre half. 

Thirdly you haven't taken transfer fees into account at all. Bereton was a huge investment in 1 player and a colossal waste of money , likewise Gally for £5 million - I'm not sure we've seen value for money there yet either. So you need to factor in costs of players as well when considering whether they were a good or bad signing. I'd suggest for their fees none of our brought strikers have really matched their price tags. (Maybe Armstrong?) For example Smallwood was a good piece of business - cost nothing and was very useful/good for promotion. Had we spend £2-3 mill on him, for a 1 season wonder, it wouldn't look such a smart move. Fees matter. Fees matter, so do wages. We are on a small wage budget and Mowbray has even alluded to the fact we are able to free up transfer fees in order to save on wages. You factor in whether or not they have improved the team and as such Gallagher has improved the team.

If you want to refer to Brereton as an investment then I'd suggest you don't write an investment off after 1 year. Investments are exactly that, an investment, and unless you've struck at just the right time 12 months is very little in terms of potential for growth on your investment. He has time, he's 19/20(?), so I'm not going to write him off just yet.

Fourthly, albeit perhaps point 3.5, is that none of the strikers as yet look like replacing Graham. For our favoured 4-2-3-1 formation despite £12+ mill of investment we don't look to have a suitable quality replacement. I hope Gally will do it but am not convinced despite his impressive work rate. Worth considering how the signings have shaped the squad too - or how the lack of signings in positions hurt us.  Gallagher can replace Graham. We've looked good this season with him. Danny Graham is also a hard player to replace as not many strikers do that type of job anymore; hence the emphasis by Mowbray on changing our style of play.

The last two seasons I have done an end of season transfer review thread (search it out if interested) where I try to offer a balanced opinion on how well our transfer business has turned out and others do likewise. The consensus from the last 2 seasons was that it was pretty average at best. A couple of good uns amongst a fair bit of dross and failure. Whilst I think (here's hoping it continues) that our dealings are much better this season, the last 2 years show TM has been very average at best in his transfer dealings. I'm really pleased we've begun to pick up on this over the past summer, but the last few seasons need a lot of positive spin to make them out to be successes. What wasn't a success about them? We now own majority of our starting players, something not happening when Mowbray came, we've improved year on year and most of Mowbray's signings are firm members of the squad. This summers transfer business has been shown to be very good and at the end of the day that's what I'm bothered about.

As an aside you forgot Rodwell. In fairness his time here was very forgettable. No I didn't.

Finally the point is you can do it fairly cheaply not that no money is spent. The money chucked on strikers alone is double what Norwich spent and goes a long way to countering their extra wages. Also it's not like our wages aren't competitive for the championship. AND money does not equal success as many clubs in this division and the prem have clearly shown. However recently Sheff Utd and Norwich have spent relatively frugally and done very well out of it. The issue are we getting as much value from the market as possible and the answer probably is, in comparison, no.  Again, and honestly for the last time, both Sheffield United and Norwich's position is incomparable to ours. They have both spent more than us over the past 3 season. Norwich's wage bill is one of the highest in the Championship (I look forward to some accounting comparisons SwissRamble releases soon) and it will be interesting to see their turnover-wage ratio in comparison to us. 

Doesn't mean we hate the club, or aren't pleased with our current form, but even compared to Bowyer's recruitment we aren't getting the same bang for our bucks and could be doing better. Admittedly Bowyer's use of said resources was poor but the point is to do with recruitment and we got some steals - Cairney, Gestede, Conway, Duffy for example. And the point was solely this - that we could during TMs overall tenure do better at recruitment. Our recruitment this season has been exceptional, which is what Mowbray is judged on. We probably couldn't attract the type of player he has brought here without his stewardship over the last few seasons. When he came we were lurking around the pits of the window, picking up the likes of Greer and Wes Brown, and now we are here signing Downing, Johnson and Holtby. Brilliant!!!!!!!!

 

 

See comments in red.

In summary though Blue Blood I believe it only fair to judge Mowbray on his Championship transfer dealings, as understandably a lower league = lower class of players. Since we have been in the Championship each one of Mowbray's signings has a) improved the team and b) improved in quality as we have. That can only be a good thing.

Expectation has improved because quality has improved. If that isn't a major indicator that his dealings have been partially successful then I don't know what it is.

Finally, I'm sick of seeing comparisons to other clubs without the full context applied. Yes, Norwich signed Pukki for free and he's turned out brilliant, but they also have a wage bill that dwarfs ours and have a structure at the club that remained from the PL years. Every club since Burnley that have got promoted have spent huge sums of money in comparison to what we are now spending.

 

[K-Hod]

4 minutes ago, DeeCee said:

At the moment it's not money well spent. It may well be in the future but I agree that fee could have been better used at the time.

I don't want anyone to misunderstand me, as I want nothing more than for Brereton to be a roaring success, (believe me, nobody cheered more loudly than me when he bagged against Bolton last season), but it's looking a long way off that at the moment.

[Dreams of 1995]

12 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

 

Your Leicester analogy is not a like for like comparison whatsoever. The fact that 2 teams last season alone did it shows that it wasn't a once only event. It seems there have regularly been teams who have got promoted on a limited budget, Blackpool as one spring to mind, and many more have gotten very close to doing so via the playoffs. A one off like Leicester is a very different kettle of fish, not least because there's no top 4 / big 6 domenence in the Championship. 

 

I'm not reading the rest but for the last time.......................SHEFFIELD UNITED AND NORWICH SPENT A LOT OF MONEY GETTING PROMOTION. SEE WAGES.

[philipl]

Exceptional thread for a game several days ago.

Mowbray back in the good books but not securely so as far as I am concerned.

Delighted that with the alarming exception of goal keeper every place in the first eleven is under severe pressure from at least one player who is at least as good as they are.

Let's see where it is going to take us.

 

[Blue blood]

2 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

See comments in red.

In summary though Blue Blood I believe it only fair to judge Mowbray on his Championship transfer dealings, as understandably a lower league = lower class of players. Since we have been in the Championship each one of Mowbray's signings has a) improved the team and b) improved in quality as we have. That can only be a good thing.

Expectation has improved because quality has improved. If that isn't a major indicator that his dealings have been partially successful then I don't know what it is.

Finally, I'm sick of seeing comparisons to other clubs without the full context applied. Yes, Norwich signed Pukki for free and he's turned out brilliant, but they also have a wage bill that dwarfs ours and have a structure at the club that remained from the PL years. Every club since Burnley that have got promoted have spent huge sums of money in comparison to what we are now spending.

 

Totally disagree but feel it may be best to leave it here. I don't think they are spending masses more - especially Sheff Utd, no way can a recent ex league 1 club seriously outgun us - nor is anyone saying we should get Pukki like signings, just better value for money in transfer market. Not is anyone saying all his deals have been bad - there have been some good ones in there - just questioning the overall effectiveness of this area. Bit frustrating that it has to be totally good or totally bad - that's not what saying, rather getting better value in the market and transfer dealings have been very mixed.

I'm sick it has to be all or nothing. Your retoric is very much of that all or nothing genre - do I expect world beaters every time? Clearly not. I praise the good. That's just a silly accusarion.

You can't write off an investment after 1 year - despite the evidence being BB is nowhere near good enough at this level on the evidence. Yet previous evidence on Holtby is enough to make him a good signing- you are only using past evidence when it suits you. 

You say you are only bothered about this season - which I admit seems better albeit only early days - then also say all his windows have been a success. Do they count or not? You're contradicting yourself all over the shop. 

Also massively disagree over not judging transfers in League 1. We judges his performances and rightly credit TM for getting us up, so why ignore one aspect of this? Also, especially in reviewing transfer threads, the quality of player for the quality of league is factored into it - hence why Smallwood and Downing (the defender) were judged successes. 

It feels like any criticism of TM gets you rather worked up so probably not worth continuing this debate. TM has done some good stuff and great stuff but I think, and have given reasons for, his transfers not being his strongest area. 

[Dreams of 1995]

Just now, Blue blood said:

Totally disagree but feel it may be best to leave it here. I don't think they are spending masses more - especially Sheff Utd, no way can a recent ex league 1 club seriously outgun us - nor is anyone saying we should get Pukki like signings, just better value for money in transfer market. Not is anyone saying all his deals have been bad - there have been some good ones in there - just questioning the overall effectiveness of this area. Bit frustrating that it has to be totally good or totally bad - that's not what saying, rather getting better value in the market and transfer dealings have been very mixed.

I'm sick it has to be all or nothing. Your retoric is very much of that all or nothing genre - do I expect world beaters every time? Clearly not. I praise the good. That's just a silly accusarion.

You can't write off an investment after 1 year - despite the evidence being BB is nowhere near good enough at this level on the evidence. Yet previous evidence on Holtby is enough to make him a good signing- you are only using past evidence when it suits you. 

You say you are only bothered about this season - which I admit seems better albeit only early days - then also say all his windows have been a success. Do they count or not? You're contradicting yourself all over the shop. 

Also massively disagree over not judging transfers in League 1. We judges his performances and rightly credit TM for getting us up, so why ignore one aspect of this? Also, especially in reviewing transfer threads, the quality of player for the quality of league is factored into it - hence why Smallwood and Downing (the defender) were judged successes. 

It feels like any criticism of TM gets you rather worked up so probably not worth continuing this debate. TM has done some good stuff and great stuff but I think, and have given reasons for, his transfers not being his strongest area. 

Nah nah nah nah nah, you have gone way too dramatic man.

For one, nobody is saying it is all or nothing. I gave an estimate of 66% of our signings have improved the squad. Therefore it would be safe to assume I'm not saying it has been "totally good", duuuude. You may be questioning the effectiveness now, but your comment was in response to me telling Stuart I believed we have been performing adequately in that area. If you can point out to me somewhere where I've said otherwise then I'm happy to rescind that comment but I think you'll find I admitted there were some faults, but not enough to warrant the level of criticism.

His windows have been successful. Our team has improved year on year and we are improving year on year. A measure of success is growth and we are growing.

My reasoning for not judging transfers on league 1 is because people are trying to judge that level of transfers against what we currently have. We were a struggling side then, on a downward spiral, and desperate to get players in. We could only attract the likes of Whittingham and Caddis, but people forget Samuel got gols, Antonsson got goals, Dack, Downing, Bell have all turned out to have, at the time, improved the squad or continued to be important players. You write that transfer window off on the basis of two players - fine, but you should also expect it to be argued against. However, at the end of all of it, we got promoted as we should and now sit with a squad that consists of far superior players than he inherited.

As a measure of recruitment, Blue Blood, here is the squad Mowbray had when he took over:

Steele

Nyambe Lenihan Mulgrew Williams

Conway Guthrie Lowe Feeney

Graham Emnes

Bench: Stokes, Raya, Joao, Tomlinson, Gallagher, Mahoney

 

Our squad vs Reading:

Walton

Bennett Lenihan Williams Cunningham

Evans Travis

Downing Dack Armstrong

Gallagher

Bench: Nyambe, Johnson, Graham, Canada, Bell, Holtby, Buckley.

An absolute vast improvement. It was Mowbray who brought in Travis; Mowbray who brought in Mahoney; Mowbray who brought in Buckley; Mowbray who moved Williams to CB; Mowbray who bought those players. His recruitment, and team management, is being shown to have been successful because we are improving and HAVE improved.

There's a big difference between criticising certain signings and considering Mowbray;s recruitment as a failure, which is what was being painted prior to my comments, and which you are now denying is the case. I'm not saying 100% of signings have been successful but it is in no way, shape or form been a failure.

With reference to Brereton vs Holtby, you are comparing apples with pears. One is a player that is 29, had Champions League experience and hundreds of games at an elite level; the other is a 20 year old lad who had a lot of pressure and under 100 appearances at a second tier level. Not comparable. I'm not willing to write Brereton off after a season but I am willing to put my neck on the line that Holtby will be a good addition to our squad. What I did to come to that conclusion was look at the situations of either player (context) and form a judgement that isn't black and white in order to further a point I wanna make. BB hasn't shown enough so far but BB didn't choose his price tag either. I am willing to give him, and Mowbray, the benefit of the doubt for now.

"It feels like any criticism of TM gets you rather worked up so probably not worth continuing this debate. TM has done some good stuff and great stuff but I think, and have given reasons for, his transfers not being his strongest area. "

This line is pathetic and is just trying to take away from the discussion (exactly what 47er did too...shock). A lot of people have appreciated my posts, and I certainly haven't got worked up. It is tiring reading the same lines after lines though, especially when different posters at different times have addressed said issues- it disappears and then rears its head 3 weeks later but rewrapped in a different tone.

You are allowed to have a different opinion to me Blue Blood and, in truth, I thought our two posts were us discussing and not arguing. I'm sorry you've got the impression that I'm trying to stifle debate but a brief look back through the posts will see I haven't been. Indeed I think they have been appreciated by quite a few posters.  All talk of dramatic rhetoric and being worked up is just another way of trying to play the poster and not the point at hand. If you have points worth making, make them, regardless of whether you feel it will "work me up", which I can assure it almost certainly will not.

 

[Mattyblue]

Hang on a minute Dreams you were happy for him to be sacked after TWO GAMES this season!

So all a bit rich for you to now accuse other posters of being unreasonable and one eyed, unable to see the long term plan and development of the squad under him etc etc.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Mattyblue

[Guest]

4 hours ago, K-Hod said:

How long are we supposed to wait though? 
Thing is, if he’s not getting in the match day squad at the moment and the money could have been used better on other areas of the pitch, it can’t really be said that it was money well spent though, can it?

It's not about waiting etc.. I'm merely saying that the transfer fee paid for Brereton isn't his responsibility. That lies with the club, as it was their decision to pay so much for him. Brereton may or may not come good, but to call him a flop based on his transfer fee is a little unfair on him personally, the transfer itself may seem misguided but to say Brereton has flopped is odd - he was never a world beater before he came.

[JacknOry]

32 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Nah nah nah nah nah, you have gone way too dramatic man.

For one, nobody is saying it is all or nothing. I gave an estimate of 66% of our signings have improved the squad. Therefore it would be safe to assume I'm not saying it has been "totally good", duuuude. You may be questioning the effectiveness now, but your comment was in response to me telling Stuart I believed we have been performing adequately in that area. If you can point out to me somewhere where I've said otherwise then I'm happy to rescind that comment but I think you'll find I admitted there were some faults, but not enough to warrant the level of criticism.

His windows have been successful. Our team has improved year on year and we are improving year on year. A measure of success is growth and we are growing.

My reasoning for not judging transfers on league 1 is because people are trying to judge that level of transfers against what we currently have. We were a struggling side then, on a downward spiral, and desperate to get players in. We could only attract the likes of Whittingham and Caddis, but people forget Samuel got gols, Antonsson got goals, Dack, Downing, Bell have all turned out to have, at the time, improved the squad or continued to be important players. You write that transfer window off on the basis of two players - fine, but you should also expect it to be argued against. However, at the end of all of it, we got promoted as we should and now sit with a squad that consists of far superior players than he inherited.

As a measure of recruitment, Blue Blood, here is the squad Mowbray had when he took over:

Steele

Nyambe Lenihan Mulgrew Williams

Conway Guthrie Lowe Feeney

Graham Emnes

Bench: Stokes, Raya, Joao, Tomlinson, Gallagher, Mahoney

 

Our squad vs Reading:

Walton

Bennett Lenihan Williams Cunningham

Evans Travis

Downing Dack Armstrong

Gallagher

Bench: Nyambe, Johnson, Graham, Canada, Bell, Holtby, Buckley.

An absolute vast improvement. It was Mowbray who brought in Travis; Mowbray who brought in Mahoney; Mowbray who brought in Buckley; Mowbray who moved Williams to CB; Mowbray who bought those players. His recruitment, and team management, is being shown to have been successful because we are improving and HAVE improved.

There's a big difference between criticising certain signings and considering Mowbray;s recruitment as a failure, which is what was being painted prior to my comments, and which you are now denying is the case. I'm not saying 100% of signings have been successful but it is in no way, shape or form been a failure.

With reference to Brereton vs Holtby, you are comparing apples with pears. One is a player that is 29, had Champions League experience and hundreds of games at an elite level; the other is a 20 year old lad who had a lot of pressure and under 100 appearances at a second tier level. Not comparable. I'm not willing to write Brereton off after a season but I am willing to put my neck on the line that Holtby will be a good addition to our squad. What I did to come to that conclusion was look at the situations of either player (context) and form a judgement that isn't black and white in order to further a point I wanna make. BB hasn't shown enough so far but BB didn't choose his price tag either. I am willing to give him, and Mowbray, the benefit of the doubt for now.

"It feels like any criticism of TM gets you rather worked up so probably not worth continuing this debate. TM has done some good stuff and great stuff but I think, and have given reasons for, his transfers not being his strongest area. "

This line is pathetic and is just trying to take away from the discussion (exactly what 47er did too...shock). A lot of people have appreciated my posts, and I certainly haven't got worked up. It is tiring reading the same lines after lines though, especially when different posters at different times have addressed said issues- it disappears and then rears its head 3 weeks later but rewrapped in a different tone.

You are allowed to have a different opinion to me Blue Blood and, in truth, I thought our two posts were us discussing and not arguing. I'm sorry you've got the impression that I'm trying to stifle debate but a brief look back through the posts will see I haven't been. Indeed I think they have been appreciated by quite a few posters.  All talk of dramatic rhetoric and being worked up is just another way of trying to play the poster and not the point at hand. If you have points worth making, make them, regardless of whether you feel it will "work me up", which I can assure it almost certainly will not.

 

Handful

[Dreams of 1995]

11 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Hang on a minute Dreams you were happy for him to be sacked after TWO GAMES this season!

So all a bit rich for you to now accuse other posters of being unreasonable and one eyed, unable to see the long term plan and development of the squad under him etc etc.

I was unhappy with his treatment of younger players at the time - still do think he's way too critical compared to how he is with older players.

I was unhappy at the time with the window. I was far too premature. This window has been a huge success in my eyes as has shown. At the time of writing what you are referring to we had loaned out Mulgrew and not replaced him - it seemed an unmitigated failure to do so. History, so far, has shown us otherwise. Mowbray knows more than us, that's why he is the professional.

Then again Matty we could go back months and months on this board on what was said and not said and find out 98% of us are talking utter shite but you of all people wouldn't want such a move happening.

In that post I had not said I was happy for him sacked. I think, even, I referred to the fear of what would come next and even at my lowest point of faith in TM since League 1 I still would have kept him as manager because the next man through that door could be Owen Coyle.

I also think there's a difference between point blank refusing to apply context and a reactive post on the back of 2 losses, the sale of our captain and a Boomtown comedown. Then again, who gives a shit

[Mattyblue]

‘We may all want him sacked’ sure sounded like you agreed with the sentiment?

The rest of the post above is generally fair enough, but then surely you should be cutting some slack to others who haven’t as yet been on the journey and reached the same view you have over the past six weeks?

Edited September 26, 2019 by Mattyblue

[Stuart]

8 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

I was unhappy with his treatment of younger players at the time - still do think he's way too critical compared to how he is with older players.

I was unhappy at the time with the window. I was far too premature. This window has been a huge success in my eyes as has shown. At the time of writing what you are referring to we had loaned out Mulgrew and not replaced him - it seemed an unmitigated failure to do so. History, so far, has shown us otherwise. Mowbray knows more than us, that's why he is the professional.

Then again Matty we could go back months and months on this board on what was said and not said and find out 98% of us are talking utter shite but you of all people wouldn't want such a move happening.

In that post I had not said I was happy for him sacked. I think, even, I referred to the fear of what would come next and even at my lowest point of faith in TM since League 1 I still would have kept him as manager because the next man through that door could be Owen Coyle.

I also think there's a difference between point blank refusing to apply context and a reactive post on the back of 2 losses, the sale of our captain and a Boomtown comedown. Then again, who gives a shit

Matty of all people?

Barking very loudly up the wrong tree there matey.

99.5% of what he posts is usually based on a very solid footing!

[Paul Mani]

I think it’s refreshing when people realise that their emotive rants were unnecessary and feel able to change their opinion.

[Mattyblue]

Ha I skipped past that bit as I wasn’t sure what he was getting at.

I enjoy a good trawl of old threads to back up my point as much as the next man. 

[Silas]

1 hour ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Nah nah nah nah nah, ......

 

 

The start of your post just made me hear this. ?