Players out of position

[Nelsonthedog]

Just wanted to make the point that TM isn't the only manager to switch players playing roles.. there are many examples of managers doing this.. in the distant past rovers had 'marshalls misfits' Inc switching Fred Pickering from average full back to become an outstanding centre forward.. more recently we had Kenny dalglish signing striker Paul warhurst and playing him midfield.. I think Graeme le saux was a winger at Chelsea too before dalglish made him an England left back..

I'm sure there are many other examples, can anyone think of any?

[Hasta]

Just now, Nelsonthedog said:

Just wanted to make the point that TM isn't the only manager to switch players playing roles.. there are many examples of managers doing this.. in the distant past rovers had 'marshalls misfits' Inc switching Fred Pickering from average full back to become an outstanding centre forward.. more recently we had Kenny dalglish signing striker Paul warhurst and playing him midfield.. I think Graeme le saux was a winger at Chelsea too before dalglish made him an England left back..

I'm sure there are many other examples, can anyone think of any?

True but when previous managers did it with players the move worked. We have spunked almost 4 months of the season on this failed experiment.

[Riverside under the drip]

I would argue that Williams' move was a revelation. So good in fact that he's unlikely to play CB for us again (bit naughty but the irony is delicious).

[Amo]

In Souness' darkest hour, he had Gresko in centre-midfield and Matteo on the wing. If you needed further proof that he had completely lost the plot.

[Hasta]

Just now, Riverside under the drip said:

I would argue that Williams' move was a revelation. So good in fact that he's unlikely to play CB for us again (bit naughty but the irony is delicious).

A revelation? I'd hate to see our defensive record this season if he had been poor !!

 

[JacknOry]

Just now, Nelsonthedog said:

Just wanted to make the point that TM isn't the only manager to switch players playing roles.. there are many examples of managers doing this.. in the distant past rovers had 'marshalls misfits' Inc switching Fred Pickering from average full back to become an outstanding centre forward.. more recently we had Kenny dalglish signing striker Paul warhurst and playing him midfield.. I think Graeme le saux was a winger at Chelsea too before dalglish made him an England left back..

I'm sure there are many other examples, can anyone think of any?

Warhurst actually began as a CB before being moved up front as an emergency striker at Wednesday. He then came here and was played in midfield. If there was ever a player from the past that TM would love to have here - it would be him.

Generally though, these positional changes often bear immediate fruit and those players are usually just one player out of position rather than the 2 or 3 we have had under TM. Think Chris Sutton, Dion Dublin, Warhurst, Henry - these all bore fruit straight away. Gallagher on the wing (inverted forward or whatnot) never looked like working, as did Bennett at LB, BB as a wide forward, or even Dack being utilised as the lone striker. 

Edited December 3, 2019 by JacknOry

[Nelsonthedog]

I think a lot of the time positional switches work in the short term, but longer term the players struggle for consistency in the alien role.

[K-Hod]

If it works, then fine, I’ve no issue, the problem is, it often hasn’t. 
How many times has Bennett made mistakes at right back? 
Why is Gallagher wide right when he’s really tall and our smallest player is in the middle for us to knock balls up to?

[Nelsonthedog]

Just now, K-Hod said:

If it works, then fine, I’ve no issue, the problem is, it often hasn’t. 
How many times has Bennett made mistakes at right back? 
Why is Gallagher wide right when he’s really tall and our smallest player is in the middle for us to knock balls up to?

Oh I agree.. Gallagher should be central.. I'm not excusing TM.. just saying he's not alone as a manager in doing it.. you could replace TM and find a new man doing similar.

[Nelsonthedog]

If we keep the same line up, I fully expect sides to start targeting downing at left back very soon.

[tomphil]

You'll get away with the odd one and sometimes you just have to shuffle the pack so TM is no different to any other in that regard.  However some of the stuff this season combined with the new 'style' has clearly held the team back you don't have to be an expert to see how unbalanced its been.

Also just signing players on the strength they can do a few positions will catch up with you eventually i think we've been a victim of him having too many options this season. Trying to make 5 go into 4 doesn't work the best most functional settled 11 must always come first, not constant experimenting or trying to accommodate.

[JacknOry]

2 minutes ago, Nelsonthedog said:

If we keep the same line up, I fully expect sides to start targeting downing at left back very soon.

I think we will get targeted there no matter who we put there from Bell, Williams, Bennett or Downing. At least with the latter, he has won both games in a row from there and looked excellent getting forward. I agree that he has not really been overly tested defensively as of yet. Plus, he is by far our best set-piece taker so should really be on the pitch somewhere if possible. He is not completely alien to the position either, played there quite a bit for Liverpool.

LB is still a priority for January though.  

Edited December 3, 2019 by JacknOry

[Guest]

We're almost too adept with versatility.

Holtby will end up playing too many minutes this season on the right-hand side, Downing at left-back, Bennett at right-back and Nyambe at centre-back. Simply because they can doesn't mean they should, and most of the time playing a slightly weaker player over a better one BUT in their natural position is the right answer. 

We'd all prefer Holtby in the XI over Smallwood, but if you need someone to win the ball back as a defensive midfielder, you'll get pretty shit results if you play a 5ft 9 German attacker there over someone like Richie. Same with Bennett, a decent all round player, being shoehorned into right-back, when lesser experienced but played in his actual position Nyambe produces as good as, if not better, results.

We need to sign a left-back and an actual right winger who can cross a bloody ball.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 hour ago, Nelsonthedog said:

Just wanted to make the point that TM isn't the only manager to switch players playing roles.. there are many examples of managers doing this.. in the distant past rovers had 'marshalls misfits' Inc switching Fred Pickering from average full back to become an outstanding centre forward.. more recently we had Kenny dalglish signing striker Paul warhurst and playing him midfield.. I think Graeme le saux was a winger at Chelsea too before dalglish made him an England left back..

I'm sure there are many other examples, can anyone think of any?

Jack Marshall specialised in it. As well as Pickering he moved a very average wing half ( midfield player to the kids ) in Andy McEvoy up along side Pickering and created a goal scoring machine. Bryan Douglas was moved from the wing to centre midfield to run the show. Mike Ferguson came as a attacking midfield player and quickly got moved onto the right wing. Mike England started out in midfield but got moved to centre half. Keith Newton moved from centre half to full back. It does make you wonder if managers try players out in different positions these days. Apart from our Tony who does it in competitive matches !

[Blue blood]

2 hours ago, Nelsonthedog said:

Just wanted to make the point that TM isn't the only manager to switch players playing roles.. there are many examples of managers doing this.. in the distant past rovers had 'marshalls misfits' Inc switching Fred Pickering from average full back to become an outstanding centre forward.. more recently we had Kenny dalglish signing striker Paul warhurst and playing him midfield.. I think Graeme le saux was a winger at Chelsea too before dalglish made him an England left back..

I'm sure there are many other examples, can anyone think of any?

The difference between TM and good managers is how many make the change. Emerton under Hughes was good at both right back and centre mid - neither of which were his main position. Similarly Warnock looked ok in centre mid under Big Sam. 

Thing is very few players change position under a good manager. Whilst there may always be one or two there's not the wholesale moving about of players that we see at Ewood. We've played virtually every striker on the wing, Bennett at right back, Dack in a few odd places, Downing on the wrong wing and that's just off the top of my head. That's far more than any other manager I can recall.

Perhaps equally pertenant is that I can't recall many managers sticking with players for more than a game or two when it doesn't work yet in TM we have seen this persisted with even when it isn't working. 

Its no surprise we have started to do a bit better with more players in their correct position. TM had gained himself a bit of breathing space with a good run over the last 3 games but let's not pretend that the overplaying of players out of position was normal or a strength. There'll always be players who adapt to new positions but they are far from in the majority. 

[LeftWinger]

2 hours ago, Amo said:

In Souness' darkest hour, he had Gresko in centre-midfield and Matteo on the wing. If you needed further proof that he had completely lost the plot.

Friedel, Emerton, Amoruso, Short, Gray, Gresko, De Pedro, Ferguson, Matteo, Yorke, Stead

That was his team in his final home game before he went to Newcastle. 

Garth Crooks would have been proud of that line up! Still not quite sure who was playing where. 

[Riverside under the drip]

3 hours ago, Hasta said:

A revelation? I'd hate to see our defensive record this season if he had been poor !!

 

Oh alright, a revelation in comparison to the stinking garbage that was him at left back all these years.

[old darwen blue]

3 hours ago, Nelsonthedog said:

If we keep the same line up, I fully expect sides to start targeting downing at left back very soon.

Stu can handle it he’s class 

[Pedro]

4 hours ago, Nelsonthedog said:

Just wanted to make the point that TM isn't the only manager to switch players playing roles.. there are many examples of managers doing this.. in the distant past rovers had 'marshalls misfits' Inc switching Fred Pickering from average full back to become an outstanding centre forward.. more recently we had Kenny dalglish signing striker Paul warhurst and playing him midfield.. I think Graeme le saux was a winger at Chelsea too before dalglish made him an England left back..

I'm sure there are many other examples, can anyone think of any?

Difference being, we do it with too many players who don't have good enough attributes to play out of position and there are usually better-suited players for that position on the bench.

[Pedro]

4 hours ago, Nelsonthedog said:

If we keep the same line up, I fully expect sides to start targeting downing at left back very soon.

I agree. I thought he looked a weak link on Saturday.

[Nelsonthedog]

26 minutes ago, Pedro said:

I agree. I thought he looked a weak link on Saturday.

I'd feel happier with a proper left back there. That'd be my only change at the moment. Has to be Williams when fit.

[Pedro]

3 minutes ago, Nelsonthedog said:

I'd feel happier with a proper left back there. That'd be my only change at the moment. Has to be Williams when fit.

Cunningham was a great signing. I hope he recovers and fancies staying. If a decent option is there in Jan though, we must go for it.

[OldEwoodBlue]

11 hours ago, Nelsonthedog said:

I'd feel happier with a proper left back there. That'd be my only change at the moment. Has to be Williams when fit.

Pure insanity that idea.

Downing is the only one we have capable of playing there with any degree of quality.

Williams is a centre half. Bell isn't anything.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Pedro said:

Cunningham was a great signing. I hope he recovers and fancies staying. If a decent option is there in Jan though, we must go for it.

Clearly injury prone though, always was before coming here and now picked up another big one. I'd probably avoid the heartbreak of being without a left-back again next season when he inevitably goes down holding his leg.

That Williams lad at United, young LB who's just broken through, good little player. He's not even anywhere near the same league as our own Lewis Thompson. In-fact we're an entire division about Manchester United at youth level. The fact that they've got average quality youth players like that scoring goals in the PL, and we've still not given quite a few of our lads proper shots is scary. 

Thompson will play PL for me at some point, a proper proper player, hoping he gets a shot in the cup or something this year at a minimum.

[Nelsonthedog]

1 hour ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

Pure insanity that idea.

Downing is the only one we have capable of playing there with any degree of quality.

Williams is a centre half. Bell isn't anything.

Williams is a left back.. always has been.. signed for the club as that.