Climate catastrophe

[philipl]

We don't have a thread on the thing that is going to burn/drown/starve/destroy civilisation if not for us, but for our kids.

I will kick off with the Australian Foreign Minister at Davos yesterday. 

"Only 2% of the Australian land mass has burned down."

If you have flown from Melbourne to Singapore or KL that is a terrifying statistic. Four hours out of Tullamarine flying at about 600mph you are still looking down at barren Australian nothingness.

 

 

 

[tomphil]

Climate catastrophe and flying in the same breath ?

The climate changes and has done for millions of years and there's nothing we can do about that. As predicted several years ago before the hysteria we were about to experience a once every god knows how many years change and to expect crazy weather.  That was not long after the coldest winter in decades around 09/10 when they were telling us the planet could be cooling and we might enter a new ice age.

Amazing how all this gets swept under the carpet.

Sadly the stuff going on in the amazon and now Australia does fall into the bracket of reckless man made climate change. Gas guzzling USA and smog covered parts of China just add to it.

Of course in the UK working class blokes driving 10 year old diesel cars they were all advised to buy by the last Labour lot get the blame for it. Probably because there's a Tory tax opportunity in it somewhere in the near future.

Shite state of affairs - stop cutting trees down and plant them instead.

Edited January 24, 2020 by tomphil

[K-Hod]

‘Anyone that buys a diesel car needs to think long and hard about it’

£30 a year road tax Mr Osbourne, that’ll do me!

[Husky]

Nobody cares. Even the traffic in little Blackburn is an absolute disgrace these days and almost everyone seems to have 3 cars.

Also the main concern of many remainers seemed to be focused on the rampant car industry.

[DE.]

Traffic here is absolutely awful as well. Almost impossible to navigate down some residential streets due to the amount of parked cars littering the sides of the roads. I walk whenever possible but it's definitely not a mindset shared by most people around here. I live next door to an Asda and see neighbours literally drive into the car park just to pick up a bag's worth of shopping. It's ridiculous. 

[tomphil]

If they were serious about it all the first thing any govt should do is electrify all its public transport and make that the law. Then ban any gas guzzling petrol / diesel non commercial vehicles above say 2.5 litre engines.

To do this there'd need to be a period of transition and it would need subsidising so now we are back at Tax.  Something most probably don't mind paying if it goes towards what its supposed to, which is rarely the case.

The impending doom scenario and the lack of actual action don't weight up i'm afraid and as usual they'll end up looking to joe public to carry the can.

[DE.]

Public transport in general needs to be improved massively if the Government are serious about reducing car usage/emissions. It's well and good telling people to use trains/buses more often, but in this part of the country at least both of those options are extremely unreliable. Buses turn up whenever they want, rarely on time, making scheduling around bus travel almost impossible. Trains meanwhile are expensive, often delayed and if you're on a rush hour train good luck finding a seat. 

I can't blame people for choosing to drive over public transport because the latter is just not up to standard. I have less tolerance for people choosing to drive short distances rather than walking, excluding issues like bad weather, medical conditions, travelling somewhere else afterwards, etc. To me that's more to do with laziness and a contributor to the poor state of public health in general. 

Edited January 25, 2020 by DE.

[speeeeeeedie]

5 hours ago, DE. said:

Public transport in general needs to be improved massively if the Government are serious about reducing car usage/emissions. It's well and good telling people to use trains/buses more often, but in this part of the country at least both of those options are extremely unreliable. Buses turn up whenever they want, rarely on time, making scheduling around bus travel almost impossible. Trains meanwhile are expensive, often delayed and if you're on a rush hour train good luck finding a seat. 

I can't blame people for choosing to drive over public transport because the latter is just not up to standard. I have less tolerance for people choosing to drive short distances rather than walking, excluding issues like bad weather, medical conditions, travelling somewhere else afterwards, etc. To me that's more to do with laziness and a contributor to the poor state of public health in general. 

It does. Cars everywhere is one thing I notice every time I go home. It wasn't like it is now 20 years ago. I've said previously that successive governments prioritised cars over buses and trains. I'm sure it has a lot to do with WWII recovery and allowing American firms the chance for new markets.

I used to work with a bloke who lived near Ipswich. He lived in the middle of nowhere, although not too far out, but said that he rarely went out for a drink. He had to drive everywhere he went because of the lack of public transport. There was a bus that went past his house once a week. 

[OldEwoodBlue]

This must be a fake news thread.

The planet will do what it wants when it wants and we have no say in that.

Big drama about nothing. Not buying it at all. Plastic everywhere is a mad made problem which needs sorting out. The climate is way above our pay grade.

[Mike E]

5 hours ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

This must be a fake news thread.

The planet will do what it wants when it wants and we have no say in that.

Big drama about nothing. Not buying it at all. Plastic everywhere is a mad made problem which needs sorting out. The climate is way above our pay grade.

You've conflated climate change with resources there.

Unless you're saying you don't believe we're using oil and coal at a faster rate than is made available?

Electrification of vehicles is much more about transitioning to sustainable wind, solar, hydroelectric, and nuclear generation than it is about emission.

Edit- sorry meant to multi quote the others into this post, not picking on you OEB.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Mike E

[Sparks Rover]

One of the best moves any government could make is to build a good number of strategically positioned Energy from waste sites, and then introduce a coherent, synchronized national waste/recycling service.  The whole thing needs regulating and we should have our waste going back into our grid and not half of Europe's. This would seriously improve our environmental performance. 

[tomphil]

More cars each family has more road tax is gathered and as we know only too well round here only a small percentage of it goes to what it should. The rest just disappears, anything any govt can push on the public to make more revenue from they will.

More gridlock means license to introduce more toll roads, more parking fees, fines, speeding and other offence takings and we'll see more congestion charges.  It's a right racket.

Edited January 26, 2020 by tomphil

[Mashed Potatoes]

4 minutes ago, tomphil said:

More cars each family has more road tax is gathered and as we know only too well round here only a small percentage of it goes to what it should. The rest just disappears, anything any govt can push on the public to make more revenue from they will.

More gridlock means license to introduce more toll roads, more parking fees, fines, speeding and other offence takings and we'll see more congestion charges.  It's a right racket.

How do you get more speeding fines off more gridlock ?

[tomphil]

13 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

How do you get more speeding fines off more gridlock ?

Pedantic sheriffs badge.

Edited January 26, 2020 by tomphil

[only2garners]

2 hours ago, tomphil said:

More cars each family has more road tax is gathered and as we know only too well round here only a small percentage of it goes to what it should. The rest just disappears, anything any govt can push on the public to make more revenue from they will.

More gridlock means license to introduce more toll roads, more parking fees, fines, speeding and other offence takings and we'll see more congestion charges.  It's a right racket.

There’s no such tax as road tax and hasn’t been since the 1930s. What you are referring to is vehicle excise duty, which is determined on the CO2 emissions of the vehicle. There is no link between what is raised from this and what is spent on road infrastructure.

Your second paragraph should surely logically lead to less car use, particularly if it’s accompanied with greater spending on public transport. Clearly some people need cars to make awkward journeys, either because of the time of the day or location, but by definition these journeys by and large aren’t being made at peak congestion times.

[tomphil]

Road tax, car tax, VED call it whatever it all amounts to the same thing.  It all goes into one pot and out of it only a tiny fraction goes towards keep the roads up to date. 

Edited January 26, 2020 by tomphil

[only2garners]

My point was that VED is not designed to fund road infrastructure improvements and hasn't done for 80 years.

[Claytons Left Boot]

With regard to climate change, I think we are past the point of no return. Yes, climate has changed in the past without man’s meddling, for example the last ice age but, current problems like the fires in Australia, the melting of the ice caps etc.  are purely down to the warming of the planet due to CO2 emissions. Tundra fires are now at record levels numerically but, because they are in the far north, they are rarely mentioned. Out of sight, out of mind. The biggest concern, of course, is the growing human population and the demands that brings with overcrowding, the need for food and the like. I dread to think what conditions will be like, nationally and globally, when my grandchildren are my age. I’m glad I won’t be around to witness it.

[OldEwoodBlue]

An interesting read

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51097309

[dave birch]

On 22/01/2020 at 19:08, philipl said:

"We don't have a thread on the thing that is going to burn/drown/starve/destroy civilisation if not for us, but for our kids.

I will kick off with the Australian Foreign Minister at Davos yesterday. 

"Only 2% of the Australian land mass has burned down."

If you have flown from Melbourne to Singapore or KL that is a terrifying statistic. Four hours out of Tullamarine flying at about 600mph you are still looking down at barren Australian nothingness."

And, if you had been on the ground at many points on your flight, you would have found evidence of human habitation dating back thousands of years.

You might have learned that Aboriginals have been using fire for centuries as a land management tool.

Yes, only two% of the total landmass has burned. What does that tell you? Yes, this place is huge. Much of what has burned is National park, inaccessible National park. It's still burning.

To you, it's a "barren nothingness", to those that have been on the ground it's a place to learn how to manage to live without damaging the ecology.

The world could learn a lot from the Australian Aboriginals.

Start googling Philip.

 

Quote

 

 

 

Edited January 28, 2020 by dave birch

[47er]

1 hour ago, dave birch said:

Yes, only two% of the total landmass has burned. What does that tell you? Yes, this place is huge. Much of what has burned is National park, inaccessible National park. It's still burning.

 

No towns affected then? No  coastal communities? I must have been looking at the wrong pictures.

I'm not sure what your point is tbh. Australia's summers are getting hotter and hotter, the drought has continued in in various places for years, Australia's emission are rising---it produces 1.3 % of the world's carbon emissions but has nothing close to that in population terms and it actively works to sabotage progress at international conferences to ameliorate climate change. Also it hopes to open a huge new coal-mine in Queensland.

So, indeed there's much we can learn from the native settlers of most communities but bugger all from the dopes in power.

[dave birch]

49 minutes ago, 47er said:

No towns affected then? No  coastal communities? I must have been looking at the wrong pictures.

I'm not sure what your point is tbh. Australia's summers are getting hotter and hotter, the drought has continued in in various places for years, Australia's emission are rising---it produces 1.3 % of the world's carbon emissions but has nothing close to that in population terms and it actively works to sabotage progress at international conferences to ameliorate climate change. Also it hopes to open a huge new coal-mine in Queensland.

So, indeed there's much we can learn from the native settlers of most communities but bugger all from the dopes in power.

oh dear, we are upset aren't we.

You are looking at the most narrowest of pictures.

What does 2% of the Australian landmass tell you?

Many of the fires would have ignited even if this place hadn't been inhabited. Lightening causes a lot of bushfires here.

Yep, our emissions are high, due to the amount of coal that's dug up and exported, to where? China, Japan, South Korea et al. It's not burned here, it's burned in the recipients country, but included in our emissions.

It's said that coal could be dug up here for the next 300 years or so and we still wouldn't see the end.

Want to give up your Japanese/Korean car, made from Aussie iron ore/coal that makes the steel?

The "new" coal mine that wants to be opened, in Queensland. Would that be the one that most Aussies don't want? The one that the Indians want to open, and to ship coal to the subcontinent through the GBR? It's called Adani, google them.

Do you ever consider the UK companies that invest in Au and their impact? They invest to make themselves richer, including your superannuation funds that pay you your pension.

If it upsets you so much, get in touch with your pension fund and ask them to invest in business' that create less emissions that return enough to pay you.

[Dreams of 1995]

The UK invests a hell of a lot of money in foreign fossil fuel initiatives. Really, really hypocritical from us. 
 

in my opinion the plastic waste is a bigger concern to “climate change”. Climate change has happened throughout time, emissions will fall as we invest in renewable energies (this is happening, the social change is happening) but alternatives to plastic are limited and strangled by business because currently they’re making fortunes producing and packaging everything in cheap unrecycable products that will last thousands upon thousand of years. 

[47er]

2 hours ago, dave birch said:

oh dear, we are upset aren't we.

You are looking at the most narrowest of pictures.

What does 2% of the Australian landmass tell you?

Many of the fires would have ignited even if this place hadn't been inhabited. Lightening causes a lot of bushfires here.

Yep, our emissions are high, due to the amount of coal that's dug up and exported, to where? China, Japan, South Korea et al. It's not burned here, it's burned in the recipients country, but included in our emissions.

It's said that coal could be dug up here for the next 300 years or so and we still wouldn't see the end.

Want to give up your Japanese/Korean car, made from Aussie iron ore/coal that makes the steel?

The "new" coal mine that wants to be opened, in Queensland. Would that be the one that most Aussies don't want? The one that the Indians want to open, and to ship coal to the subcontinent through the GBR? It's called Adani, google them.

Do you ever consider the UK companies that invest in Au and their impact? They invest to make themselves richer, including your superannuation funds that pay you your pension.

If it upsets you so much, get in touch with your pension fund and ask them to invest in business' that create less emissions that return enough to pay you.

Oh dear. We are patronising aren't we?

2% of the Australian land mass is bigger than many European countries!

I know that lightening causes many fires but the lack of rain over more than a decade now means the ground id tinderbox dry. That's what global warning does.

We know Australia is rich in coal. Britain has a lot of it too but it will never be dug up. The fact that you export most of it does not free you of moral complicity in the damage it causes.

In any case, and you've ignored this, Australians are the world's second largest emitters of carbon on a per capita basis.

I know its called Adani and I accept popular opinion is against it but Government is not hence "the dopes in power" remark I made. Why let the Indians have their way? Answer----filthy lucre

I have my own share portfolio by the way which provides my pension---it contains no coal or iron component--don't make assumptions about people you don't know.

 

[JacknOry]

4 hours ago, 47er said:

Oh dear. We are patronising aren't we?

2% of the Australian land mass is bigger than many European countries!

I know that lightening causes many fires but the lack of rain over more than a decade now means the ground id tinderbox dry. That's what global warning does.

We know Australia is rich in coal. Britain has a lot of it too but it will never be dug up. The fact that you export most of it does not free you of moral complicity in the damage it causes.

In any case, and you've ignored this, Australians are the world's second largest emitters of carbon on a per capita basis.

I know its called Adani and I accept popular opinion is against it but Government is not hence "the dopes in power" remark I made. Why let the Indians have their way? Answer----filthy lucre

I have my own share portfolio by the way which provides my pension---it contains no coal or iron component--don't make assumptions about people you don't know.

 

As the kids might say 'Ownage dude'