Supporters Consultation Meeting

[JHRover]

1 hour ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

£1.3 million was budget in Jan.

That makes a mockery of talk of buying players for 2 - 4 mill. Forget it. 

Self imposed wage cap. Will not break it. Many Champ players on £50K and ours are on a quarter.... that's £12.5K 

 

Defenders did come. Walton, Tosin, Cunningham.

Accepted back to square 1 in summer.

Sounded like no appetite to actually buy a defender...none really identified who we can afford and fits criteria.

 

We will bring in 2 x GKs in summer.

(remember same said in summer).

Tosin - no chance to buy (£18 mill or something) but will try to get another 6 month loan from City.

Walton was not the GK we wanted. Last minute after Raya left. Nearly sent back in Jan but Tony likes him and wanted give him chance and support him. Personally I am OK with that.

'Defenders are coming' became 3 players on loan, one of which is a keeper inferior to the one we sold.

It is now nearly 12 months since Mowbray promised defenders and come the summer we will have Lenihan, Nyambe and Williams as our senior contracted defensive players. We've made no progress there, other than Nyambe improving his game and Lenihan clearly being very important to us. We can debate whether Tosin and Cunningham represent improvement on last season, I accept they probably are, but the reality is not enough to get us where we want to be and unlikely to be back.

The GK fiasco is a major concern. Mowbray now talks about signing 2 keepers in the summer. But why should I believe that after what happened last year? Time and time again he's made these sort of promises to the fans and then what actually happens falls some way short.

I don't see a medium term plan. I see a club operating on 12 month cycles trying to manage as best they can with what is allocated by the owners. There remains a clear and obvious policy of not spending on the defence or goalkeeper positions, preferring to make do with loans for 6-12 months, whilst allocating all our resources on projects up front.

[Guest]

The only thing I think we can all be happy with is that the club have set their own internal wage cap, I think that's something to be quite proud of. Clearly the club is being run by people who actually understand football & money now from a board level, and to introduce our own soft transfer restrictions in house rather than sell our own stadium back to ourselves and get a points deduction etc.. is commendable.

I'd much rather support a mid-table Championship club that's financially stable, has an alright set of lads and a board we can trust to not do anything drastic - than be in Sheffield Wednesday's or Birmingham City's position. Those clubs have only got a few years for me before they end up in just as much financial shit as Bolton. Derby may go that way to. These teams went for broke to get promoted and simply didn't manage it in time. I can't see a Wednesday promotion this season either. 

So long as there's a team to support playing in Blue & White halves, where the board listen and understand the fans concerns, and the lads try hard on the pitch - I'm content. 

(I also fully accept that some people aren't content with that, I do. I sympathise with your views)

[Mattyblue]

Sheff Wed and the like won’t end up like Bolton. 

[Paul Mani]

12 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Does make me chuckle how star struck and proud as punch Paul is just for spending some time with club employees,
 

I thought it was a regular occurrence? 

Not star struck mate, (if you knew the truth you’d prob feel a bit embarrassed by that comment). But definitely respectful...that’s how it has to be with footballers who are under huge social pressure.

As for Mowbray, I’ve said on many occasions that I don’t know him. Never pretended otherwise.

more importantly, the people I trust with that information and they know who they are, can ask me anytime and I’d be happy to tell them privately. Most have already had whatever I heard last night in conversations I’ve had this morning.
 

[Mattyblue]

Would I buggery feel embarrassed, it’s a message board.

Most fans are ‘respectful’, think you’ve read to many sport management/psychology books.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Mattyblue

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Sheff Wed and the like won’t end up like Bolton. 

It really won't take much. That Chansiri idiot will walk away one day and leave that club in ruin. Unlike the Venkys who've taken a backseat, that chap is unhinged.

[Paul Mani]

1 minute ago, Mattyblue said:

Would I buggery feel embarrassed, it’s a message board.

Most fans are ‘respectful’, think you’ve read to many sport management/psychology books.

Yes, most are thankfully.

[Paul Mani]

Just now, JoeH said:

It really won't take much. That Chansiri idiot will walk away one day and leave that club in ruin. Unlike the Venkys who've taken a backseat, that chap is unhinged.

True Joe. And ultimately none of the debt is leveraged against us. It’s all Venkys. Yes, they royally fucked up but they continue to pay out of their own pockets to keep us afloat.

Having seen and heard some of the Hardcore fans who have divorced themselves from the club in the last 10 years, I don’t think half of the fan base would continue supporting Rovers like the owners even if they had the money.

[Mattyblue]

I’ll tell you now Sheff Wed won’t be in the fourth division in the next decade. Anderson stripped that club unlike anything we’ve seen in a long time.

[chaddyrovers]

32 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

At the moment we are completely reliant on them. I know that.

They have put themselves in a position through their own mismanagement where they have to keep ploughing in good money after bad to ensure we remain a going concern. Failure to do so would wipe £200 million off their company value overnight, so it’s not benevolence, it’s sound business strategy for them.

Like I stated earlier, these meetings don’t really serve the purpose they were introduced for while they are in the current format. The big question I wanted answering last night was this:

 

Tony Mowbray, Owen Coyle and Paul Lambert are all represented by HSH. All of their appointments were a little strange.

HSH has three directors listed with companies house, namely, Stephen Horner, Dave Sheron, and Craig Honeyman.

Honeyman is a former director of SEM. Horner and Sheron are both former SEM employees and were named alongside Myles’s Daddy in a lawsuit brought about by Gavin McCann, which suggests they work together closely.

 

Why are these people still having significant influence in what happens at the club, if Venkys have indeed learnt from their mistakes?

Was this answer by Mowbray or Waggott? 

How many players have we signed from these 3 people since Mowbray became Manager here? Would we been money on a proper European scouting network if we were reliant on these 3 people for signings? 

1 minute ago, Mattyblue said:

I’ll tell you now Sheff Wed won’t be in the fourth division in the next decade. Anderson stripped that club unlike anything we’ve seen in a long time.

They might not be but their wage bill is massive. Gone backwards since Carvalhl days

[Mattyblue]

Without doubt, but they ain’t Bolton.

[roversfan99]

3 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

£1.3m was what was left from last summer, so the budget will be refreshed and also effected by players leaving etc making ‘room’.

One interesting pOint by Cheston was on ffp. He stated clearly that ffp is always judged on this years and the previous two years accounts. Meaning that so long as you lose the same amount every year (and  accumulatively that doesn’t exceed £39m over the three years) then your budget literally refreshes every season and you have the same spending power. If that makes sense.

He also said that whilst our submissions for ffp were due in at the end of the month (feb), but we can make some further adjustments if needed up until the end of June when our accounting period ends.

My observation is that a profit sale like Dack for example every three years would make huge dent in our ability to spend as a £20m fee would effectively make us whole for that year which would increase our spending power over any three year period.

Interesting also (as I’ve said SOOO many times) that in particular Mowbray said on numerous occasions that failing all else, if he really wanted to spend more Money, the owners had told him he only had to ask.

My overriding emotion now following the meeting is that we have a leadership structure who do care passionately about the club.

Mowbray is far from dull. He’s passionate, animated, BRUTALLY honest about himself, his players, the market. I can 100% see why the lads including Jonty and Dunny love him so much. He hasn’t got tons of cash sloshing about but he does have a plan on how to use it better. Which he talked to me about openly and in detail. Based off the meeting and my first ever 10 mins with him one to one, he is absolutely the man to take us on for as long as he has that desire!  

Surely as @Mattyblue points out that results should dictate how long he is here for, not how much desire and passion he showed in a 10 minute chat with you.

Still not convinced either that Venkys would fund us to promote but are being prevented by red tape. I suppose we will never know for sure either way but its incredibly naive to suggest that.

[Paul Mani]

56 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Well at least divulge the topic, last time there was a SCM all the private conversations got relayed onto Social Media & here. TM & Co.. know that people will tell other people about what they discuss, a "private chat" at an open forum for mega fans of the club isn't EVER going to remain private - so I highly doubt he said anything he wanted to remain top secret...

He talked openly about his recruitment strategy for the summer as well as the state of affairs with current players, young and old. He was genuinely so open that I wondered if it were a test of some sort. Some of the lads I’ve known all my life who’ve played, managed or coached at the top level aren’t so open.

It was both shocking and refreshing. Felt real.

[Miller11]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

He talked openly about his recruitment strategy for the summer as well as the state of affairs with current players, young and old. He was genuinely so open that I wondered if it were a test of some sort. Some of the lads I’ve known all my life who’ve played, managed or coached at the top level aren’t so open.

It was both shocking and refreshing. Felt real.

I’ve got that exact feeling every time I’ve spoken to him. He’s so passionate about what he says too. He’s definitely one of the good guys and a real positive at the club. The circumstances of his arrival worry me, but It has paid off on this occasion. He’s a good fit.

[Paul Mani]

51 minutes ago, JHRover said:

'Defenders are coming' became 3 players on loan, one of which is a keeper inferior to the one we sold.

It is now nearly 12 months since Mowbray promised defenders and come the summer we will have Lenihan, Nyambe and Williams as our senior contracted defensive players. We've made no progress there, other than Nyambe improving his game and Lenihan clearly being very important to us. We can debate whether Tosin and Cunningham represent improvement on last season, I accept they probably are, but the reality is not enough to get us where we want to be and unlikely to be back.

The GK fiasco is a major concern. Mowbray now talks about signing 2 keepers in the summer. But why should I believe that after what happened last year? Time and time again he's made these sort of promises to the fans and then what actually happens falls some way short.

I don't see a medium term plan. I see a club operating on 12 month cycles trying to manage as best they can with what is allocated by the owners. There remains a clear and obvious policy of not spending on the defence or goalkeeper positions, preferring to make do with loans for 6-12 months, whilst allocating all our resources on projects up front.

He addressed that and said that they had wanted to buy but could not get the quality they wanted in the permenant market. Had to weigh up the short term (we want to go up) vs the long term (sign a younger, more affordable alternative but have to develop them). They decided to go for the loan market and fully understand the implications but ultimately, as he said, they did replace 3 of the back 5 (inc keeper) in the first 11. 

[Miller11]

23 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Was this answer by Mowbray or Waggott? 

How many players have we signed from these 3 people since Mowbray became Manager here? Would we been money on a proper European scouting network if we were reliant on these 3 people for signings? 

Waggott told me he couldn’t comment on what happened before he arrived. He acknowledged that he understood why it would be a concern. He told me he doesn’t like agents (I’ll go into detail later).

The issue here is with Venkys, not Mowbray or Waggott - I like both of them, though don’t agree with absolutely every decision they make.  If it’s of no concern to you, then fine. Coyle was a horrendous and damaging appointment, Mowbray worked out. I’m very concerned about who his eventual successor may be and how he will be appointed.

[Paul Mani]

18 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Surely as @Mattyblue points out that results should dictate how long he is here for, not how much desire and passion he showed in a 10 minute chat with you.

Still not convinced either that Venkys would fund us to promote but are being prevented by red tape. I suppose we will never know for sure either way but its incredibly naive to suggest that.

I’ve never said it did. But having employed people in my life I know that getting the right person into the right seat is hugely important.

Is Mowbray the right person? Yes I think so. He’s passionate, bought in and dedicated to Rovers.

Is he in the right seat? His managerial record and experience suggests he’s qualified to do the job currently. His record is decent.

Completely your opinion on Venkys. The players and coaches have been saying the same thing about Venkys being happy to spend for a decade. When I said it it wasn’t my opinion it was the opinion/s of those who work for them.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Paul Mani

[Stuart]

9 hours ago, JHRover said:

Not sure that tonight really takes us any further than we've been at the last couple of meets. Seems to be 'business as usual' with very much the same stuff coming out.

Owners are committed, manager and CEO only want to be judged on what happens whilst they are here, money available but not being spent (heard that one before).

I agree with Mattyblue that the slip from Waggott about the academy is potentially concerning if you interpret these things at face value. Clearly if there is a view to ending Category A status this is completely at odds with the recent proclamations about developing youth and FFP worries. 

As we've done to death on numerous occasions, academy expenditure is exempt from FFP calculations so if there is a reduction in funding to the academy that will be entirely of Venkys own volition.  Strange thing to do if they are desperate to invest. Then again maybe just a poor choice of words from Waggott.

Not sure re-use of pint glasses and concerns about contamination or the location of away fans during games are really issues that should be dealt with at these meetings. These are bi-annual precisely because they should cover much more than the usual gripes and matchday preferences.

There just isn’t the trust in the people running the club that they have it’s best interests at heart.

As you’ve said, FFP excludes the academy spend so any thoughts that the money being pumped into that (which is what Mowbray suggested when he first arrived) would be a non-starter. We are now relying on products from that academy system for the first team so surely that was money well spent.

I want to believe that Waggott is simply a businessman and playing politician, covering his bases in case something changes in future. It makes sense that the debt continues to rise and Venkys have to keep putting money in then they will cut something.

What doesn’t make sense is that the only (positive) way out of this is promotion and yet we are making no concerted efforts to do anything about that. Aside from shrug, blame the lack of fanbase and say “there’s nothing we can do”. It’s always someone else’s fault. Where are the innovative ideas, where is the long-term planning to increase attendances, what are the loopholes in FFP that can be exploited? For all Venkys’ supposed benevolence it seems to all be loans rather than capital and keeping things running like a paupers house. Yet the rhetoric is/was that Venkys are being told to hold off spending. Why defend them and blame fans?

[Paul Mani]

13 minutes ago, Stuart said:

There just isn’t the trust in the people running the club that they have it’s best interests at heart.

As you’ve said, FFP excludes the academy spend so any thoughts that the money being pumped into that (which is what Mowbray suggested when he first arrived) would be a non-starter. We are now relying on products from that academy system for the first team so surely that was money well spent.

I want to believe that Waggott is simply a businessman and playing politician, covering his bases in case something changes in future. It makes sense that the debt continues to rise and Venkys have to keep putting money in then they will cut something.

What doesn’t make sense is that the only (positive) way out of this is promotion and yet we are making no concerted efforts to do anything about that. Aside from shrug, blame the lack of fanbase and say “there’s nothing we can do”. It’s always someone else’s fault. Where are the innovative ideas, where is the long-term planning to increase attendances, what are the loopholes in FFP that can be exploited? For all Venkys’ supposed benevolence it seems to all be loans rather than capital and keeping things running like a paupers house. Yet the rhetoric is/was that Venkys are being told to hold off spending. Why defend them and blame fans?

He didn’t blame the fans and he didn’t say there was nothing they could do about ffp. Quite the opposite actually. He said they have ‘several options’ available, none of them seemed drastic and he stressed that they hadn’t sold any of their assets and was dismissive of the potential of selling the ground and leasing it back.

I couldn’t help seeing it from their side when they’re so open and then fans (who are very demanding) can’t even find it in themselves to buy a ticket. Maybe that was just me...but all Venky hate aside, I think the wider cultural issues and acceptability that you don’t need to contribute to something you care about is so sad.

I couldn’t get behind Coyle Or Kean. I despised what they stood for. But I am in no doubt about the integrity of this leadership team, coaches and the players. So I’m more than happy to do my bit. Even if it’s 0.005% of a players salary.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Paul Mani

[K-Hod]

45 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Surely as @Mattyblue points out that results should dictate how long he is here for, not how much desire and passion he showed in a 10 minute chat with you.

Still not convinced either that Venkys would fund us to promote but are being prevented by red tape. I suppose we will never know for sure either way but its incredibly naive to suggest that.

I swear to God, we are the only club that doesn’t judge a manager on this metric....

[Bigdoggsteel]

3 hours ago, Inglorious basturk said:

He has had quite some time to take us forward but hasn’t done with any significance 

 

2 hours ago, RoversClitheroe said:

That plans really paid off so far.

Is it any wonder @Paul Mani didn't want to share his private conversations from the session here? 

All that it would lead to is sniping that serves no purpose other than wasting a few seconds of everyone's time whilst trying to read some substantial and meaningful content from the session. 

[arbitro]

I went last night and the fear that many have regarding our finances (including FFP) didn't seem to be a big concern to Waggott and Cheston. Cheston doesn't seem comfortable being questioned but Waggott is quite relaxed and open. He talked about honesty and humility and he came across that way. I have spoken to him previously and he listened and took on board my suggestion. In short I trust him.

I spoke at length to another senior figure and he asked me about the negativity towards the owners. I told him in my view they need to explain why certain events happened. I said they need to be contritional if they are ever to regain trust and perhaps reach out to lapsed supporters. He said he would feed that back but in all honesty I can't see it happening.

Mowbray is passionate about football and comes across as having real enthusiasm for his job and the players. He gets carried away I feel at times but I can see why players want to play for him. I haven't changed my view that he has taken us as far as he can.

I wasn't totally enamoured with Radio Lancashire and Andy Bayes who let certain agenda items drift along. I thought the debate about where away fans are and recycled cups were inconsequential to the meeting and maybe more appropriate for the Fans Forum.

All in all it was pretty much as I expected having spoken to people who have been previously.

[Bigdoggsteel]

11 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

I swear to God, we are the only club that doesn’t judge a manager on this metric....

We are doing well though and since Mowbray has come here, we haven't been in real relegation trouble. I am obviously writing the first season off as the damage had been done. 

Of course you could say we should be in the play off places ,if that's what you think is realistic. 

[rigger]

13 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

I swear to God, we are the only club that doesn’t judge a manager on this metric....

We are an Imperial club

[Paul Mani]

10 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

I swear to God, we are the only club that doesn’t judge a manager on this metric....

Argh come off it mate. The words “it’s a results business” were mentioned on multiple occasions last night. The reason we signed Walton, Tosin and Cunningham on loan was because we wanted better players than we could afford to buy. Which proves that a huge metric being applied is based on results.

But also, why can’t people accept that results can be mitigated by lots of things like available finance etc. Our budget (fees plus wages) is Mid to low in the championship. (I think 11th in the last published stats). So what makes any of our fans assume that we should get in the top 6? Our results are pretty much where they should be. The question is if Mowbray can overachieve...