Lewis Holtby

[Bigdoggsteel]

The word coming out is its a season ender.

God almighty. Very bad if true. 

We can all criticize the transfer window, but for him Dack and Rothwell to all get injured is ridiculous. 

[roversfan99]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

The word coming out is its a season ender.

God almighty. Very bad if true. 

We can all criticize the transfer window, but for him Dack and Rothwell to all get injured is ridiculous. 

Where is that from?

Undoubtedly incredibly unfortunate, but equally Dack was injured in December and Rothwell before the end of the window and Mowbray was unable to bring in anyone so that falls on him and the club for not reacting.

We do have 12m worth of strikers so ordinarily we should still possess a goal threat. Cant imagine us being too easy on the eye now.

[Bigdoggsteel]

2 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Where is that from?

Undoubtedly incredibly unfortunate, but equally Dack was injured in December and Rothwell before the end of the window and Mowbray was unable to bring in anyone so that falls on him and the club for not reacting.

We do have 12m worth of strikers so ordinarily we should still possess a goal threat. Cant imagine us being too easy on the eye now.

Rothwell is out for 3-4 weeks, Holtby was fit. I obviously wouldn't have been against us signings someone, but that is exceptional misfortune. 

Even if we had 2 prolific strikers, it would still be a blow. 

No,not easy,but more worryingly where are we going to get results from. Surely a change of formation necessary. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Bigdoggsteel

[Dreams of 1995]

2 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Where is that from?

Undoubtedly incredibly unfortunate, but equally Dack was injured in December and Rothwell before the end of the window and Mowbray was unable to bring in anyone so that falls on him and the club for not reacting.

We do have 12m worth of strikers so ordinarily we should still possess a goal threat. Cant imagine us being too easy on the eye now.

It doesn't fall on anyone. Rothwell is a short term injury and Holtby was injured after the fact. You'd be hard pressed to sign anyone worth signing to come and sit behind Holtby and Rothwell (when fit) for 6 months until Dack comes back....

You tried too hard with that post. 

[roversfan99]

1 minute ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Rothwell is out for 3-4 weeks, Holtby was fit. I obviously wouldn't have been against us signings someone, but that is exceptional misfortune. 

Even if we had 2 prolific strikers, it would still be a blow. 

No,not easy,but more worryingly where are we going to get results from. Surely a change of formation necessary. 

Where did you get the word that Holtby is out for the season?

We needed more attacking players especially in wide areas regardless of these 3 injuries because we have not been effective from there. Ultimately that was an area that Mowbray tried but ultimately failed to bring in reinforcements and even with the injuries to our 2 number 10s we still look desperately short in wide areas. Having players contributing goals and assists from there could have eased the burden on our central areas in the absence of Dack and now Holtby.

I dont doubt that we have been unfortunate though with injuries.

Same reply to you @Dreams of 1995

[Dreams of 1995]

We are now short in the attacking areas because we have Holtby, Dack and Rothwell injured. Prior to them being injured you'd have them 3, Gallagher, Brereton, Graham, Armstrong, Bennett, JRC (now), Chapman and Downing. That's 11 players vying for 4 positions. Hardly short of numbers. Definitely not "desperately short".

Players have contributed goals and assists from there. We have scored 43 goals which is comfortably in the league average so we are definitely not short of goals. I'm struggling to see how we have not been effective going forward. Dating back to the 0-0 vs Cardiff in August we've only not scored in 2 games. I'd say that's relatively effective...

We are short of quality in them areas but there was no way we were going to get an attacking midfielder of any higher quality than we already have in Jan. Quite simply our injuries have been horrendous in this department but Mowbray can't be blamed for that, however much you and the hornets nest stir and try your very best to do so.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

26 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

We are now short in the attacking areas because we have Holtby, Dack and Rothwell injured. Prior to them being injured you'd have them 3, Gallagher, Brereton, Graham, Armstrong, Bennett, JRC (now), Chapman and Downing. That's 11 players vying for 4 positions. Hardly short of numbers. Definitely not "desperately short".

Players have contributed goals and assists from there. We have scored 43 goals which is comfortably in the league average so we are definitely not short of goals. I'm struggling to see how we have not been effective going forward. Dating back to the 0-0 vs Cardiff in August we've only not scored in 2 games. I'd say that's relatively effective...

We are short of quality in them areas but there was no way we were going to get an attacking midfielder of any higher quality than we already have in Jan. Quite simply our injuries have been horrendous in this department but Mowbray can't be blamed for that, however much you and the hornets nest stir and try your very best to do so.

I think Butterworth would have been knocking on the door at this point - if he hadn't also got what I heard was a season ending injury.

Change of formation now I think, at least until Rothwell is fit again. 4-4-2 with Armstrong and Gallager up front and Downing, Travis, Johnson, Rankin-Costello across the midfield.

Holtby hasn't been a success story has he ? I can't recall a season when so many players have sustained long term injuries. Has the game got more demanding on players physiques or are we signing players with less than robust bodies ?

[roversfan99]

32 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

We are now short in the attacking areas because we have Holtby, Dack and Rothwell injured. Prior to them being injured you'd have them 3, Gallagher, Brereton, Graham, Armstrong, Bennett, JRC (now), Chapman and Downing. That's 11 players vying for 4 positions. Hardly short of numbers. Definitely not "desperately short".

Players have contributed goals and assists from there. We have scored 43 goals which is comfortably in the league average so we are definitely not short of goals. I'm struggling to see how we have not been effective going forward. Dating back to the 0-0 vs Cardiff in August we've only not scored in 2 games. I'd say that's relatively effective...

We are short of quality in them areas but there was no way we were going to get an attacking midfielder of any higher quality than we already have in Jan. Quite simply our injuries have been horrendous in this department but Mowbray can't be blamed for that, however much you and the hornets nest stir and try your very best to do so.

The injuries I have repeatedly said are unfortunate. I am not doubting that or blaming Mowbray for that.

Youve named loads of players but where are the competent players to play in the wide areas? Gallagher, poor striker, useless winger. Brereton, not up to it. Bennett, not up to it. Downing, plays deeper with Travis. JRC warrants game time but we cant rely on him yet. Chapman, who?! Armstrong plays up top, we needed wide men.

There were players who moved in January that could have improved us. Marcus Maddison, Scott Sinclair, Jack Clarke, Patrick Roberts, Tarique Fosu, Albert Adomah in wide areas, strikers Nakhi Wells, Rhian Brewster, Scott Hogan and left backs Gaeten Bong and Harry Toffolo going off on a tangent. They are just players that were transferred. You dont have to pretend that the window was anything other than as Mowbray even said, was "frustrating." It was a bad window and a waste.

I am mainly concerned about the mention that Holtby is out for the season. I have not seen that myself but it would be a hammer blow.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

48 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

It doesn't fall on anyone. Rothwell is a short term injury and Holtby was injured after the fact. You'd be hard pressed to sign anyone worth signing to come and sit behind Holtby and Rothwell (when fit) for 6 months until Dack comes back....

You tried too hard with that post. 

I got the feeling with Holtby that he wasn't a stranger to the treatment room and to expect him to play every week was being a bit optimistic.

[PeteJD13]

6 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

The injuries I have repeatedly said are unfortunate. I am not doubting that or blaming Mowbray for that.

Youve named loads of players but where are the competent players to play in the wide areas? Gallagher, poor striker, useless winger. Brereton, not up to it. Bennett, not up to it. Downing, plays deeper with Travis. JRC warrants game time but we cant rely on him yet. Chapman, who?! Armstrong plays up top, we needed wide men.

There were players who moved in January that could have improved us. Marcus Maddison, Scott Sinclair, Jack Clarke, Patrick Roberts, Tarique Fosu, Albert Adomah in wide areas, strikers Nakhi Wells, Rhian Brewster, Scott Hogan and left backs Gaeten Bong and Harry Toffolo going off on a tangent. They are just players that were transferred. You dont have to pretend that the window was anything other than as Mowbray even said, was "frustrating." It was a bad window and a waste.

I am mainly concerned about the mention that Holtby is out for the season. I have not seen that myself but it would be a hammer blow.

Scott Hogan ? he's scored 13 goals in 3 years actually that sort of strike ratio fits in with the club!. Maddison is a berk and really disruptive influence see the Peterborough owners comments on him Wells went for money. I could name lots of players that would improve us, its absolutely pointless as we clearly don't have a budget to do this. We made a desperate move for Atsu on the cheap and failed, Mowbrays failing is keeping the dross like Samuel/Smallwood etc at the club draining wages. 

[Dreams of 1995]

20 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

The injuries I have repeatedly said are unfortunate. I am not doubting that or blaming Mowbray for that.

Youve named loads of players but where are the competent players to play in the wide areas? Gallagher, poor striker, useless winger. Brereton, not up to it. Bennett, not up to it. Downing, plays deeper with Travis. JRC warrants game time but we cant rely on him yet. Chapman, who?! Armstrong plays up top, we needed wide men.

There were players who moved in January that could have improved us. Marcus Maddison, Scott Sinclair, Jack Clarke, Patrick Roberts, Tarique Fosu, Albert Adomah in wide areas, strikers Nakhi Wells, Rhian Brewster, Scott Hogan and left backs Gaeten Bong and Harry Toffolo going off on a tangent. They are just players that were transferred. You dont have to pretend that the window was anything other than as Mowbray even said, was "frustrating." It was a bad window and a waste.

I am mainly concerned about the mention that Holtby is out for the season. I have not seen that myself but it would be a hammer blow.

January is always a frustrating window. Prices are sky high and teams are scrambling to cover themselves.

It's all well and good naming random player names that may well have fit in but ultimately they didn't come. Most would cost too much, some are unknowns and the truth about it all is you don't know if any of them names would have worked at this club. It's a real easy argument to have to say "x could have improved us - what a terrible window!!". Out of all of them players the only one that would have got me out of my seat excited is Wells because he has proven goals at this level, but there's no way Burnley are going to send us him.

It wasn't a waste. We've kept our squad and can build on it again in the summer. Our squad now is the strongest it has been since Bowyer's time, which is in part thanks to the work Mowbray and co have done. You will do well to remember that in your haste to throw shade his way. 

To end discussion, because I have 0 interest in going into a back and fourth with you about Gallagher as a winger ala every topic on this board, I'd have personally spent the Gallagher money elsewhere (on out and out wingers) but I am not a football manager, I don't know the market and I can't grumble given our current position. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Dreams of 1995

[G Somerset Rover]

52 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I got the feeling with Holtby that he wasn't a stranger to the treatment room and to expect him to play every week was being a bit optimistic.

Yep, said it when we signed him, that it's the only reason he is here! It's certainly not just a couple of weeks judging by his social media.

That lack of a winger/attacking mid coming in during January is going to bite us on the arse big time here. Brereton/Samuel/Bennett simply not good enough.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Gavlar Somerset Rover!

[Blue blood]

I think the big worry is does this nullify Armstrong? Armstrong's form has come with us playing in a specific way with a certain type of player behind him. Without that will he go back to his less-than-consistant form? Losing a way of playing may lose us more than just Holtby. 

I also got the impression he was a bit of a crock. But with a full.squad to manage it I think he's definitely an asset worth having as he is a fantastic talent. Relying solely on his fitness though was always a dangerous place to be in as Tyrone says. 

 

[roversfan99]

6 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

I think the big worry is does this nullify Armstrong? Armstrong's form has come with us playing in a specific way with a certain type of player behind him. Without that will he go back to his less-than-consistant form? Losing a way of playing may lose us more than just Holtby. 

I also got the impression he was a bit of a crock. But with a full.squad to manage it I think he's definitely an asset worth having as he is a fantastic talent. Relying solely on his fitness though was always a dangerous place to be in as Tyrone says. 

 

I think you make a valid point of losing him (as well as Rothwell) as Armstrongs pace would force defences deeper, giving Holtby in particular space in between the lines. The 2 options are to go with a Graham next to him or to play Downing as a 10 and Johnson beside Travis.

Edited February 4, 2020 by roversfan99

[Blue blood]

2 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I think you make a valid point of losing him (as well as Rothwell) as Armstrongs pace would force defences deeper, giving Holtby in particular space in between the lines. The 2 options are to go with a Graham next to him or to play Downing as a 10 and Johnson beside Travis.

The issue with Graham or Gally next to him is it really changes the way we play and doesn't make much use of the space the creative number 10 goes. 

Downing there seems the best shout but goodness how many positions does the lad have to play? So far he's our best option at left back (albeit Bell has improved a bit of late) and centre mid partnering Travis and out wide left! Talk about over reliance on a player. And that's assuming his 34/35 years can take the strain of playing each game. 

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

We are now short in the attacking areas because we have Holtby, Dack and Rothwell injured. Prior to them being injured you'd have them 3, Gallagher, Brereton, Graham, Armstrong, Bennett, JRC (now), Chapman and Downing. That's 11 players vying for 4 positions. Hardly short of numbers. Definitely not "desperately short".

Exactly. You are spot on. Also we cant keep signing players when it clear players have to leave. Cant have loads of players

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

There were players who moved in January that could have improved us. Marcus Maddison, Scott Sinclair, Jack Clarke, Patrick Roberts, Tarique Fosu, Albert Adomah in wide areas, strikers Nakhi Wells, Rhian Brewster, Scott Hogan and left backs Gaeten Bong and Harry Toffolo going off on a tangent. They are just players that were transferred. You dont have to pretend that the window was anything other than as Mowbray even said, was "frustrating." It was a bad window and a waste.

People have mentioned Maddison on here for 18 months and we never bid for him I believe. It took him ages to find a move to championship club considering his stats(which you love to judge players with) over 2 and half years. Wonder why if he that's good? 

Clarke, Spurs wanted to loan to club in London so they can mention him most closer. 

Brewster was always to Swansea cos of his relationship with their head coach Cooper from their England days. 

You are very good at throwing out players name without considering the budget we have, Money available for targets, have we scouted him, wages, etc. 

Why we keep going around and around discussing the same issues day after day I don't know. 

Fact of the matter we didn't sign anyone despite us putting bids in for players. Now it gives opportunity for youth players coming through now. Obvisouly it would be great to sign a couple of players but I do agree with Rovers not over paying for players like so many do in January window. 

[roversfan99]

48 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

The issue with Graham or Gally next to him is it really changes the way we play and doesn't make much use of the space the creative number 10 goes. 

Downing there seems the best shout but goodness how many positions does the lad have to play? So far he's our best option at left back (albeit Bell has improved a bit of late) and centre mid partnering Travis and out wide left! Talk about over reliance on a player. And that's assuming his 34/35 years can take the strain of playing each game. 

Graham would get the nod every day over Gallagher or Brereton in a 2 but as you suggest, there are pros and cons to using him and Armstrong in a front 2. If you do, you are accepting that without your 3 key attacking midfielders who could take advantage of the spaces ahead of the defence pushed back in fear of Armstrongs pace, you no longer have the technical ability to benefit and are willing to become more pragmatic. Graham is brilliant at holding up, his flick ons and link play is far, far more intelligent than anyone else that we have but I like you am unconvinced that giving Armstrong a partner will help him.

If we are going to go with a 10 we cant look past Downing as our sole technical player remaining, but either way I have a huge concern over the wide areas and where the goals would come from.

Absolutely bang on about over reliance on Downing. His levels have fitness do seem impressive but how long can his body hold up? 

[chaddyrovers]

Why would you want 2 up front against Fulham where we would put numbered in centre midfield and allow Cairney far too much space. Better playing 4-3-3 against them

[roversfan99]

2 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

January is always a frustrating window. Prices are sky high and teams are scrambling to cover themselves.

It's all well and good naming random player names that may well have fit in but ultimately they didn't come. Most would cost too much, some are unknowns and the truth about it all is you don't know if any of them names would have worked at this club. It's a real easy argument to have to say "x could have improved us - what a terrible window!!". Out of all of them players the only one that would have got me out of my seat excited is Wells because he has proven goals at this level, but there's no way Burnley are going to send us him.

It wasn't a waste. We've kept our squad and can build on it again in the summer. Our squad now is the strongest it has been since Bowyer's time, which is in part thanks to the work Mowbray and co have done. You will do well to remember that in your haste to throw shade his way. 

To end discussion, because I have 0 interest in going into a back and fourth with you about Gallagher as a winger ala every topic on this board, I'd have personally spent the Gallagher money elsewhere (on out and out wingers) but I am not a football manager, I don't know the market and I can't grumble given our current position. 

January may be a difficult window but I think it definitely was a failed window, even the manager was publically frustrated by the outcome of it so theres no point pretending otherwise. Suggesting that players might not have worked out is strawman, it is the managers job to locate and sign players that can improve us in each window. 

I am not convinced that the squad is in a particularly great state, short or long term. Being in the best state since Bowyers is not a particularly high benchmark, by the time he left all but one of his best players had been sold on and replaced by dross, bar one who was subsequently sold by Lambert. Its very much a mixed bag in terms of Mowbrays signings and the "work he has done" with a favourable budget to those before him. If you are looking through, Walton is at best average and on loan so goalkeeper is not an area of strength. Nyambe and Lenihan key developing assets (boths main issue is injuries) and Adarabioyo is a short term very good signing. Aside from that, Mulgrew and to perhaps a lesser extent Williams are on unnecessarily extended deals and Bell isnt up to it and hopefully his contract will be allowed to expire.

Midfield, Travis' development shines well on Mowbray, Johnson is a senior, probably big earner who hasnt proven his worth, Downing a short term revelation, Evans is ok but injured, beyond that, its untested kids. Number 10, in Dack and Holtby, Mowbray is desperately unfortunate to have them both seriously injured, to get them both for under 1m is very impressive. Wide, totally different story. Rothwell is very much an enigma, doesnt contribute enough. Beyond that, its just a total absence of anything at the moment. We are relying on a Rankin Costello or a Chapman (doubtful) to suddenly come and nail a regular spot and contribute goals and assists. Its an area of serious long term neglect. Up top, Graham will do a job short term, Armstrong is getting better and proving his worth, the rest of his accumulation of attackers are more of a liability than an asset to the club despite their tender ages.

[roversfan99]

24 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Why would you want 2 up front against Fulham where we would put numbered in centre midfield and allow Cairney far too much space. Better playing 4-3-3 against them

Bar Armstrong, I dont see who will score any goals. Assuming Johnson, Travis and Downing ahead are our 3 central, who on earth do we put either side of Armstrong? Rankin Costello and Chapman are the only 2, it is a huge ask of them but I dont see an alternative. 

[roversfan99]

@Bigdoggsteel where does it say about Holtby being out for the season?

[MarkBRFC]

5 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Bar Armstrong, I dont see who will score any goals. Assuming Johnson, Travis and Downing ahead are our 3 central, who on earth do we put either side of Armstrong? Rankin Costello and Chapman are the only 2, it is a huge ask of them but I dont see an alternative. 

I think we all know that Gallagher will be one of them, the other will be Bennett or JRC.

[roversfan99]

Just now, MarkBRFC said:

I think we all know that Gallagher will be one of them, the other will be Bennett or JRC.

I think that if that was a serious option, I would have to lean towards playing Graham with Armstrong, as at least we would have have 2 goal threats. We could basically play with 2 banks of 4 beyond that, Downing and Rankin Costello as wide men who can tuck in when needed.

[Bigdoggsteel]

17 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

@Bigdoggsteel where does it say about Holtby being out for the season?

Not confirmed, but going off some of Sharpes comments today, along with 2 articles in the LT focusing on injuries and fringe/younger players stepping up, it doesn't look good.

He tweeted a response to someone where he said "going off what I was told yesterday, it's not looking good"  

Maybe not the season, but the way it looks to me, the next month is pretty much our season. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Bigdoggsteel

[bazza]

All these injuries this season makes me wonder about our training methods. Do other teams have as many injuries as we do? I know PNE fans complain about theirs. Should we be looking in depth at the methods used, the training staff and the medical staff?

Serious injuries; Cunningham, Dack, Grayson, and Butterworth.

Other players affected by injury; Brereton, Magloire, Tosin, Lenihan, Williams, Nyambe, Evans, Rothwell and now Holtby.

That's 13 players and the season is only 2/3rds through. 

Edited February 4, 2020 by bazza