Lewis Holtby

[roversfan99]

5 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Not confirmed, but going off some of Sharpes comments today, along with 2 articles in the LT focusing on injuries and fringe/younger players stepping up, it doesn't look good.

He tweeted a response to someone where he said "going off what I was told yesterday, it's not looking good"  

Maybe not the season, but the way it looks to me, the next month is pretty much our season. 

Thanks. Lets hope its not as bad as first feared as we need him as soon as possible.

[arbitro]

Cunningham, Rothwell and Holtby all returned to the pitch after lengthy treatment for their respective injuries. I really don't know if going back on exacerbated their injuries medically but I can't honestly see them going back on as a good thing.

Anybody know if this would have been the case?

[Blue blood]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Graham would get the nod every day over Gallagher or Brereton in a 2 but as you suggest, there are pros and cons to using him and Armstrong in a front 2. If you do, you are accepting that without your 3 key attacking midfielders who could take advantage of the spaces ahead of the defence pushed back in fear of Armstrongs pace, you no longer have the technical ability to benefit and are willing to become more pragmatic. Graham is brilliant at holding up, his flick ons and link play is far, far more intelligent than anyone else that we have but I like you am unconvinced that giving Armstrong a partner will help him.

If we are going to go with a 10 we cant look past Downing as our sole technical player remaining, but either way I have a huge concern over the wide areas and where the goals would come from.

Absolutely bang on about over reliance on Downing. His levels have fitness do seem impressive but how long can his body hold up? 

Agree about Graham and the formation being best for us with a 10 but unfortunately you are also spot on about the wingers/wide/inside-outside attacking players alongside the 10. There's not one option there who really looks like they will do much. Samuel and Bereton are ineffective in their best position, Gally for all his work rate doesn't do better there either - very little in goals or assists unless he is central. Bennett isn't that great at attacking either leaving some very unitried youngsters. So whilst a 10 suits Armstrong does it suit the team/the rest of the players? My gut reaction is no but with Gally and Bennett wide it does mean we have a hard working 5 man mid which in theory should be hard to break down. Perhaps we'll be grinding out a few points and nicking the odd with winner with this kind of formation. 

A 4-4-2 I think nullifies Armstrong but is perhaps better for the overall team. That said I think it's a bit defensively frail and outside of playing to Armstrong's strengths we haven't many more players available whose strengths we can play to!

Aside from Downing the system is horribly reliant on a paper thin squad. What happens if we lose a centre back to injury? Or Nayambe or Travis? Much lrss quality in Bennett but again he can only play one position at once and we look thin on cover in centre mid, out wide and right back - again one player can't cover it all. 

Our squad is paper thin and stretched to breaking point. 

58 minutes ago, bazza said:

All these injuries this season makes me wonder about our training methods. Do other teams have as many injuries as we do? I know PNE fans complain about theirs. Should we be looking in depth at the methods used, the training staff and the medical staff?

Serious injuries; Cunningham, Dack, Grayson, and Butterworth.

Other players affected by injury; Brereton, Magloire, Tosin, Lenihan, Williams, Nyambe, Evans, Rothwell and now Holtby.

That's 13 players and the season is only 2/3rds through. 

Its a hell of a lot and so I think questions have to be asked. Its hurting us so badly and it's so many that you have to think our training methods must be contributing to some extent. Factor in that another 3 players in the squad are mid 30s and that's a lot of strain to put on a squad. 

Of course signing injury prone players doesn't help. Lenihen, Evans and Holtby are all reputed sicknotes so not surprising at all that they are out. That brings it down to 10 which is still bad but not the nightmare statistic of half the squad. 

It does highlight how badly we needed cover in the transfer window though. 

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

Bar Armstrong, I dont see who will score any goals. Assuming Johnson, Travis and Downing ahead are our 3 central, who on earth do we put either side of Armstrong? Rankin Costello and Chapman are the only 2, it is a huge ask of them but I dont see an alternative. 

I have posted my team in the match thread which is the appropriate thread to post it in not the Holtby thread imo. 

 

[Beanie01289]

21 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

Agree about Graham and the formation being best for us with a 10 but unfortunately you are also spot on about the wingers/wide/inside-outside attacking players alongside the 10. There's not one option there who really looks like they will do much. Samuel and Bereton are ineffective in their best position, Gally for all his work rate doesn't do better there either - very little in goals or assists unless he is central. Bennett isn't that great at attacking either leaving some very unitried youngsters. So whilst a 10 suits Armstrong does it suit the team/the rest of the players? My gut reaction is no but with Gally and Bennett wide it does mean we have a hard working 5 man mid which in theory should be hard to break down. Perhaps we'll be grinding out a few points and nicking the odd with winner with this kind of formation. 

A 4-4-2 I think nullifies Armstrong but is perhaps better for the overall team. That said I think it's a bit defensively frail and outside of playing to Armstrong's strengths we haven't many more players available whose strengths we can play to!

Aside from Downing the system is horribly reliant on a paper thin squad. What happens if we lose a centre back to injury? Or Nayambe or Travis? Much lrss quality in Bennett but again he can only play one position at once and we look thin on cover in centre mid, out wide and right back - again one player can't cover it all. 

Our squad is paper thin and stretched to breaking point. 

Its a hell of a lot and so I think questions have to be asked. Its hurting us so badly and it's so many that you have to think our training methods must be contributing to some extent. Factor in that another 3 players in the squad are mid 30s and that's a lot of strain to put on a squad. 

Of course signing injury prone players doesn't help. Lenihen, Evans and Holtby are all reputed sicknotes so not surprising at all that they are out. That brings it down to 10 which is still bad but not the nightmare statistic of half the squad. 

It does highlight how badly we needed cover in the transfer window though. 

Not sure the injury to Evan's counts towards him being a sick note on this occasion cant really help having his face smashed. ( I'd say sick notes are more ones who pick up niggles and constant injury not traumatic head injurys)

[Blue blood]

10 minutes ago, Beanie01289 said:

Not sure the injury to Evan's counts towards him being a sick note on this occasion cant really help having his face smashed. ( I'd say sick notes are more ones who pick up niggles and constant injury not traumatic head injurys)

Not this injury but every season he is out half the time with various knocks, niggles and strains. So whilst the manner of the injury is unfortunate the chances of him being out injured for a lengthy period of time was quite high anyway. 

[bazza]

1 hour ago, arbitro said:

Cunningham, Rothwell and Holtby all returned to the pitch after lengthy treatment for their respective injuries. I really don't know if going back on exacerbated their injuries medically but I can't honestly see them going back on as a good thing.

Anybody know if this would have been the case?

Chapman was another when on loan who went back on the pitch after injuring his hamstring. 

[arbitro]

1 minute ago, bazza said:

Chapman was another when on loan who went back on the pitch after injuring his hamstring. 

Indeed he did at Wigan. That was season ending too. I also remember Lenihan going up front after treatment at Southend in our first League One match for what was a broken metatarsal. In those two instances we had used all our subs but irrespective it seems like had practice.

[Inglorious basturk]

My first post . Read a long time etc . 
how on earth have we managed to replicate last year exactly ?? I don’t think Tony has a clue I’m afraid . Amazing that he’s kept the job . No point telling you who should replace him as that’s not MY job 

[Leonard Venkhater]

9 minutes ago, Inglorious basturk said:

My first post . Read a long time etc . 
how on earth have we managed to replicate last year exactly ?? I don’t think Tony has a clue I’m afraid . Amazing that he’s kept the job . No point telling you who should replace him as that’s not MY job 

So, so frustrating. And I felt last January was unforgivable.

Then the injuries came in the Brentford game, immediately after the window of neglect.

This year-I know we have had dreadful luck-but we knew about three of these injuries before the window shut-two of them before the window even opened.

Now, I am looking back on this quote from TM earlier in the season.

"If we’re in the top half of the table and threatening the top six around Christmas and the new year I can hopefully go to the owners and ask for some more help and that last little push to try and push us ultimately to where we want to be."

Ambition...or playing us for mugs?

[Inglorious basturk]

He knows he can say what he wants to us 

[1864roverite]

Simple solution TM has to change formation and tactics! We have players who can adjust and I think the way forward is 4-4-2. Pretty simple, no point in mincing around the park, get in amongst the opposition height and speed up front puts teams on the defensive!

[bluebruce]

3 hours ago, bazza said:

Chapman was another when on loan who went back on the pitch after injuring his hamstring. 

Wow, we really are pretty fucking stupid with this, aren't we.

[Mercer]

9 hours ago, bazza said:

All these injuries this season makes me wonder about our training methods. Do other teams have as many injuries as we do? I know PNE fans complain about theirs. Should we be looking in depth at the methods used, the training staff and the medical staff?

Serious injuries; Cunningham, Dack, Grayson, and Butterworth.

Other players affected by injury; Brereton, Magloire, Tosin, Lenihan, Williams, Nyambe, Evans, Rothwell and now Holtby.

That's 13 players and the season is only 2/3rds through. 

Absolutely.

I think we once had very decent fitness and medical departments. 

Sadly, IMO, I think every level of the club has been downgraded under the present owners and its executive management.  IMO, we have paid, and will continue to do so, a very heavy price.

You get what you pay for.

I think we've squandered tens of £millions on transfer fees and wages for some very, very mediocre footballers and that's being kind!.  A fraction of that invested in key personnel would have reaped dividends.

You need a quality CEO, football manger, chief scout, academy director and head of sports' medicine and you then give them a decent infrastructure to work with.  Sadly, IMO, we fail in those five key positions and have done so for too long now; as a result, I think our club has regressed from an established PL club to, at best, a Championship club where stagnation prevails with our owners looking down the barrel at a near £200million loss.  IMO, unnecessarily tragic.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Mercer

[chaddyrovers]

7 hours ago, Mercer said:

Absolutely.

I think we once had very decent fitness and medical departments. 

Sadly, IMO, I think every level of the club has been downgraded under the present owners and its executive management.  IMO, we have paid, and will continue to do so, a very heavy price.

You get what you pay for.

I think we've squandered tens of £millions on transfer fees and wages for some very, very mediocre footballers and that's being kind!.  A fraction of that invested in key personnel would have reaped dividends.

You need a quality CEO, football manger, chief scout, academy director and head of sports' medicine and you then give them a decent infrastructure to work with.  Sadly, IMO, we fail in those five key positions and have done so for too long now; as a result, I think our club has regressed from an established PL club to, at best, a Championship club where stagnation prevails with our owners looking down the barrel at a near £200million loss.  IMO, unnecessarily tragic.

What wrong with Academy director Stuart Jones and head of Sports Science Andrew Mitchell? 

We have good youth players coming through and IMO some players who could become 1st team players in the future. 

On the injuries, Dack, Holtby and Rothwell injuries all happened during games. Blame Morsy for Dack's injury. How could Evans injury been avoid Mercer? Rothwell's injury went he made a tackle

We aren't going to agree on Mowbray so we have to agree to disagree. 

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by chaddyrovers

[Blue blood]

16 hours ago, arbitro said:

Cunningham, Rothwell and Holtby all returned to the pitch after lengthy treatment for their respective injuries. I really don't know if going back on exacerbated their injuries medically but I can't honestly see them going back on as a good thing.

Anybody know if this would have been the case?

Well my medical knowledge is very limited - a work first aid course - but I think you have hit the nail on the head here. From the very little I know (in a work context) you get them sorted not just to the stage where they can limp along kind of doing their job. It sounds to me as if our medical team's approach is akin to driving a car around hoping the bad noise will go away. 

Put it this way, making one wrong judgement call on a player being able to happen is understandable but 3 or 4?! That suggests we're making some serious errors. 

[47er]

6 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

We aren't going to agree on Mowbray so we have to agree to disagree. 

You wanted him out not long ago, now you're his greatest fan!

[Mercer]

7 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

What wrong with Academy director Stuart Jones and head of Sports Science Andrew Mitchell? 

We have good youth players coming through and IMO some players who could become 1st team players in the future. 

On the injuries, Dack, Holtby and Rothwell injuries all happened during games. Blame Morsy for Dack's injury. How could Evans injury been avoid Mercer? Rothwell's injury went he made a tackle

We aren't going to agree on Mowbray so we have to agree to disagree. 

 

Look at our Academy and all the £millions invested over the years.  Didn't Rovers say the cost was in the region of £3million+ per year.  My challenge would be is it really working?  

Look at Liverpool last night, in a FA Cup match against Liverpool, they fielded a team of youngsters with an average age of 19 and won and look at the team that defeated Everton in the previous round.  I could not see Rovers fielding a team in such circumstances from the 'ranks' and winning.

Mowbray talks about our 'kids' and Lenihan is going on 26 and Nyambe and Travis are 22 - these are not 'kids'.  'Kids' are what Liverpool fielded last night.

When did our Academy last produce a real talent sought by PL clubs or European clubs?

As a very, very bare minimum, as a Championship club, I would expect Rovers to 'produce' the likes of Lenihan, Nyambe and Travis.  As as PL club, IMO, that would be a shocking return given the resource going into the Academy.

You say we have "good youth players coming through and IMO some players who could become 1st team players in the future".  IMO, the likes of Grayson (age 20), Magloire (age 21) and Mols (age 21) are not good enough and never will be.  As for Buckley (age 20), Butterworth (age 20) and Rankin-Costello (age 20), a couple of them might  become a Championship player but they are not, IMO, hammering down the doors to our first team nor set to become the 'next big thing' in the way Damien Duff, David Dunn and Phil Jones were - all playing regular first team football (and in the PL) as 17/18/19 year old lads.

So if you measure our Academy objectively, IMO, it isn't working as it should.

As for our Sports Science department again, I look at 'results' and the evidence I see in matches.  I think we are one of the least mentally and physically fit teams in the league and as a result, the incidence of injury is higher.  IMO, there are examples of players being injured and then sent back on the field, possibly worsening their injuries (posters above have given examples including Lenihan and Chapman).  What sort of medical judgement calls are those?

We seem to pick up lots of injuries and take an age to get players back.  Younger players (as opposed to those 30+) shouldn't be injured as often as they are or take months to get into a state where Mowbray thinks they are fit enough for first team contention; Lenihan, Nyambe, Evans (excluding his facial injury), Holtby, Chapman and Davenport all readily spring to mind.

Sit back Chaddy, think about it and try to measure things more objectively.  Sadly, too many fans seem happy with mediocrity, are blinded by smoke and mirrors and think all things are rosy in the Ewood garden.  

 

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Mercer

[Inglorious basturk]

Happy players tend not to get injured 

[Bigdoggsteel]

20 minutes ago, Inglorious basturk said:

Happy players tend not to get injured 

Is that a scientific fact? 

[Inglorious basturk]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Is that a scientific fact? 

I’m not sure if it’s been looked at scientifically , however in all walks of life if everything is rosy at work minor illnesses etc tend not to be an issue and this clearly applies in football . 

[Mattyblue]

Hmmm. For all his faults, presiding over an unhappy camp is certainly not the impression I’ve ever had with this manager.
 

[Bigdoggsteel]

8 minutes ago, Inglorious basturk said:

I’m not sure if it’s been looked at scientifically , however in all walks of life if everything is rosy at work minor illnesses etc tend not to be an issue and this clearly applies in football . 

No, it clearly doesn't. It's a ludicrous suggestion to be honest. 

I note you have changed the wording from "injuries" to "minor illnesses". Last time I checked Dack, Rothwell or Holtby don't have minor illnesses. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, Mattyblue said:

Hmmm. For all his faults, presiding over an unhappy camp is certainly not the impression I’ve ever had with this manager.
 

100% 

[Inglorious basturk]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

No, it clearly doesn't. It's a ludicrous suggestion to be honest. 

I note you have changed the wording from "injuries" to "minor illnesses". Last time I checked Dack, Rothwell or Holtby don't have minor illnesses. 

Well aren’t you confrontational You cheeky big dog . I changed illnesses with injuries purely to support the work place metaphor . I’m not solely talking about the 3 you mentioned , I was really commenting on what someone else had said about how we always seem to have had a lot of injuries, ive always felt we seem like a club where there is an easy skive