Rovers v Hull

[Paul Mani]

1 hour ago, tomphil said:

The budget thing is a bit of a myth as well in terms of transfers.  How many midtable clubs have been able to spend one off fees of 6 then 5 million.  Even 1,75 million rising to 3 and a 4 yr 15 grand per week  contract is impressive by midtable club standards.

It’s not a myth mate because ‘budget’ refers to fees plus wages. It’s everything combined. And our ‘budget’ is mid to lower table.

[Mattyblue]

Our wage bill must be bottom 6 level then to equal lower mid table for total budget , as we must have a higher transfer fee net spend than most this past 18 months.

[Paul Mani]

6 minutes ago, 47er said:

You can't have it both ways! If TM is such a good judge of people why did he sign a player he won't play because of his alleged character deficiencies?

I think Chapman was the one he openly took a risk on. I seem to remember TM saying so at the time. Even if he didn’t then people can change and the point is that his integrity is seemingly intact because when any issues like this do raise their heads he’s not prepared to accept them.

[Paul Mani]

3 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Our wage bill must be bottom 6 level then to equal lower mid table for total budget , as we must have a higher transfer fee net spend than most this past 18 months.

Higher NET transfer spend? Net being £14m minus the £3.5m we got for Raya and Nuttall? £10.5m isn’t really high in that league over 18 months and added to that the indications (from the meeting) were that we haven’t got anyone on £20k and lots are well under that. In comparison, they talked about calling Championship clubs in January and asking for permission to speak with players who were not featuring For their respective clubs and were on wages double to our highest paid players.

The numbers are pretty well documented in terms of our overall budget.

[Guest]

31 minutes ago, 47er said:

You can't have it both ways! If TM is such a good judge of people why did he sign a player he won't play because of his alleged character deficiencies?

HC could have developed these traits over time, young footballs change in terms of personality as well as ability. Could've developed the wrong attitude during his injury spell(s) or during his training and playing time with the Under 23's.

[roversfan99]

I find it bizarre that Mowbray has shown so much reluctance today in the LT regarding changing formation. I would understand if the Holtby and/or Dack injuries were short term but with them both out for the season and with no viable alternatives there, surely he has to come up with an alternative, most likely a 442 to cover the rest of the season. Sometimes you have to be pragmatic and flexible, you might want to play a certain way but if something prevents you there is no point sticking with it anyway.

I think Mowbray does get a very easy time from the media, whether it be Rich Sharpe, Andy Bayes etc, he is never really challenged, the big money signings, the Bennett situation in the past, the wide strikers thing, never being in the top 6, he is always basically just given a blank canvas to say what he wants to say without much challenge.

[roversfan99]

2 minutes ago, JoeH said:

HC could have developed these traits over time, young footballs change in terms of personality as well as ability. Could've developed the wrong attitude during his injury spell(s) or during his training and playing time with the Under 23's.

The benchmark is so, so low from every other alternative we have available there that surely it is worth at least a couple of starts to see if a couple of chances is what he needs.

[Tom]

10 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I find it bizarre that Mowbray has shown so much reluctance today in the LT regarding changing formation. I would understand if the Holtby and/or Dack injuries were short term but with them both out for the season and with no viable alternatives there, surely he has to come up with an alternative, most likely a 442 to cover the rest of the season. Sometimes you have to be pragmatic and flexible, you might want to play a certain way but if something prevents you there is no point sticking with it anyway.

I think Mowbray does get a very easy time from the media, whether it be Rich Sharpe, Andy Bayes etc, he is never really challenged, the big money signings, the Bennett situation in the past, the wide strikers thing, never being in the top 6, he is always basically just given a blank canvas to say what he wants to say without much challenge.

Mentioned in another thread but today he was talking about Graham not playing and out striker options, his £7m man not even mentioned as an option nor questioned about 

[Mattyblue]

35 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Higher NET transfer spend? Net being £14m minus the £3.5m we got for Raya and Nuttall? £10.5m isn’t really high in that league over 18 months and added to that the indications (from the meeting) were that we haven’t got anyone on £20k and lots are well under that. In comparison, they talked about calling Championship clubs in January and asking for permission to speak with players who were not featuring For their respective clubs and were on wages double to our highest paid players.

The numbers are pretty well documented in terms of our overall budget.

What other mid table/bottom half club’s have had a higher spend on players? 

It’s all well and good pleading poverty, and bemoaning greedy agents and wages and the like, but that’s the marketplace we are in, so we need to find a way to compete. Blowing pretty much our entire budget by splurging £12 million on two unproven forwards seems an odd way to do it.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Mattyblue

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

The benchmark is so, so low from every other alternative we have available there that surely it is worth at least a couple of starts to see if a couple of chances is what he needs.

Yeah, I said a few pages ago to be fair to you that I'd much rather have Harry Chapman than Sam Gallagher on the wing. Like MUCHHHH rather. Completely agree with this 100%.

[roversfan99]

Just now, Mattyblue said:

What other mid table/bottom half club’s have had a higher spend on players? 

It’s all well and good pleading poverty, and bemoaning greedy agents and wages and the like, but that’s the marketplace we are in, so we need to find a way to compete. Blowing pretty much our entire budget by splurging £12 million on two unproven forwards seems an odd way to do it.

Waggott said last year that we were mid table last season in terms of wages, and thats prior to adding Johnson, Downing, Gallagher, Holtby and the 2 loans, losing barely any senior players. Add that to the favourable net spend you mention and as you suggest its certainly nothing to complain about.

[Sparks Rover]

31 minutes ago, JoeH said:

HC could have developed these traits over time, young footballs change in terms of personality as well as ability. Could've developed the wrong attitude during his injury spell(s) or during his training and playing time with the Under 23's.

Shows a lack of management skills to me

[Paul Mani]

8 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

What other mid table/bottom half club’s have had a higher spend on players? 

It’s all well and good pleading poverty, and bemoaning greedy agents and wages and the like, but that’s the marketplace we are in, so we need to find a way to compete. Blowing pretty much our entire budget by splurging £12 million on two unproven forwards seems an odd way to do it.

It is odd, I agree. They obviously decided to spend the money on fees and keep our seemingly low wage structure in tact. That seems the common theme and I’m in no rush to advocate blowing the structure up.

Interestingly, Mowbray told me to my face that they wouldn’t be spending big fees again like that though he stopped short of saying those big transfers were mistakes. Seeming confident that SG and BB would work out eventually. Referred to BB still being a 20yr old boy but accepted the external (fans) focus on him was due to the price tag.

What he also boldly said was that they wouldn’t be spending that type of money on one player again and would instead be looking to spend £2-3m on “one or two” players with a focus on the European market.

[Mattyblue]

How blasé of him. ‘Ah well, £12 million down the toilet, I’ll have a look at Europe next.’

[Blue blood]

9 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Interestingly, Mowbray told me to my face that they wouldn’t be spending big fees again like that though he stopped short of saying those big transfers were mistakes. Seeming confident that SG and BB would work out eventually. Referred to BB still being a 20yr old boy but accepted the external (fans) focus on him was due to the price tag.

What he also boldly said was that they wouldn’t be spending that type of money on one player again and would instead be looking to spend £2-3m on “one or two” players with a focus on the European market.

Well that's a hell of an admission of failure using all but the words "i screwed up." Encouraging to hear actually. Shame he didn't realise it in the first place, or being more fair as hindsight is a wonderful thing, after the Bereton fiasco. Twice was pretty unforgivable. 

In fact this sums up why I think TM isn't a good manager. Its not that he is incapable of learning, he just learns very slowly and is tempted to revert back to type when he is out of a jam. 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Shows a lack of management skills to me

That a young player he signed happened to turn out to have a poor attitude. One of out how many?
It's pure luck, and it's VERY harsh to condemn a manager because one player developed a poor attitude...

[Ewood Ace]

2 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Higher NET transfer spend? Net being £14m minus the £3.5m we got for Raya and Nuttall? £10.5m isn’t really high in that league over 18 months and added to that the indications (from the meeting) were that we haven’t got anyone on £20k and lots are well under that. In comparison, they talked about calling Championship clubs in January and asking for permission to speak with players who were not featuring For their respective clubs and were on wages double to our highest paid players.

The numbers are pretty well documented in terms of our overall budget.

I would imagine that we have spent more than £14 Million in the last 18 months. Gallagher and Brereton alone is £12 Million. Then Armstrong was £1.75 Million+ add ons, then you have Davenport, Rothwell and Chapman who all cost something. But you say a net spend of £10.5 Million isn't really that high for this division but of the teams that have spent the last two seasons in this division with us only Derby, Stoke and Forest have a higher net spend than that. Infact we are 1 of only 6 clubs who have spent the last 2 seasons in the Championship that have spent more money than we have received.

[Mattyblue]

3 minutes ago, JoeH said:

That a young player he signed happened to turn out to have a poor attitude. One of out how many?
It's pure luck, and it's VERY harsh to condemn a manager because one player developed a poor attitude...

Not bad luck though is it, as he’s known him since he was young.

More it was worth a low risk punt as he’ll be cheap.

[Sparks Rover]

9 minutes ago, JoeH said:

That a young player he signed happened to turn out to have a poor attitude. One of out how many?
It's pure luck, and it's VERY harsh to condemn a manager because one player developed a poor attitude...

He's probably pissed off players like Benno, Brereton and others are getting a sniff

[K-Hod]

19 minutes ago, JoeH said:

That a young player he signed happened to turn out to have a poor attitude. One of out how many?
It's pure luck, and it's VERY harsh to condemn a manager because one player developed a poor attitude...

If I saw Sam Gallagher playing terribly, out of position, in my position, every week, no matter what, I’d probably have a bad attitude too....

Edited February 11, 2020 by K-Hod

[roversfan99]

13 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Not bad luck though is it, as he’s known him since he was young.

More it was worth a low risk punt as he’ll be cheap.

Makes a mockery of his constant insistence of only signing the right characters when he signs someone who he already knows well and leaves him out for that very reason. 

[benhben]

The injuries mean we should be changing the formation to suit the players available...we all know this wont happen though. Id also be brave and play what ball players we have over the scrappers. Again Tony wont agree.

                        Walton

     Nyambe Lenihan Tosin Downing

Chapman Travis Davenport Armstrong

              Gallagher Graham

In reality Bennett will be back in on the wing alongside and Johnson in the middle. Bore fest. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by benhben

[Mercer]

12 hours ago, Vilesinner said:

Outshone Johnson when they played together. 

We should be looking to him, Buckley and Mols imo; not like we have that many other options.

Bennett and Johnson forever giving the ball away. Bennett does try, Johnson seems half asleep most of the time.

Rankin-Costello, Buckley, Mols, Davenport - none have stood out in my eyes.  These lads are 20 / 21 year olds and, IMO, at best, they will never be better than average Championship players.

 

4 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

 

To add to your point about the similarities the coaches and lads talk about TM now just like Shorty etc used to talk about GB. I know that they love him and respect him and I think he TM (as was GB) is a very solid manager with the right work ethics and morals. People on here saying he’s sly and trying to keep himself in a job are so far wide of the mark.  We all have different opinions - my view, based on what I've seen and heard from him, is very different.

But, I share your concerns about whether TM (like GB) has the magic dust to galvanise a mid table team on a mid table budget and do what Alex Neil has done, what Chris Wilder has done, what Ollie did with Blackpool or dare I say it Dyche with Burnley. There’s nothing about TM which says he will. The foreign market is his last chance for us imo. The whole thing is at risk of getting stale.  Well why keep him?  I think he's spunked away £12million+in fees and £millions more on wages on Brereton and Gallagher, therefore, I question his ability to judge a player and would not want him spending another penny of my money on either on UK or European players. 

Let him have the summer to bring in affordable, better quality foreign players and hopefully fully integrate a Buckley, JRC, Butterworth etc. If that doesn’t work then for me Mowbray is all out of ideas working within the budget he has. You won’t find me whining or kicking and screaming about a thoroughly good manager but sooner or later his time will run out!  IMO, that is the last thing we should do and would be utter madness.  Has he moved the club forward in his 3 years - IMO, very marginally.  I think we face a huge rebuilding job in the summer and that is down to, IMO, the hash Mowbray has made of player trading in his time with us.

 

4 hours ago, JoeH said:

I don't think there's a witch hunt conspiracy against Harry Chapman. Many, including myself, saw some of his issues develop at Leyland before the turn of the year, and TM seems to have similar issues with the lad too. Maybe it just means the lad has some problems... rather than there being a witch hunt against him, people could just be right about him.

He definitely does have more natural ability than most in that Under 23's team you're right, but he's also older than most in that team, has much more playing experience than most in that team and was signed for the first team. He's not a youth team player, Chapman has plenty of first team minutes under his belt.

He's often very selfish on the ball in those games I've seen at Leyland, and him and Dan Butterworth were constantly spatting on the pitch - seen it with my own eyes. We don't need any of that crap at first team level. I trust TM's judgement on players personalities, mainly because it seems to be the one thing that TM is bothered about to the extreme. 

My trust in TM on transfers... meh. But on people? I trust him 100%. He's not the type to manufacture a situation in order to not play a player. Could the man who kept a player at the club for 9 months whilst he recovered from an injury at our cost not under contract, JUST so he could get a move to MK Dons, really be capable of creating a witch hunt against one of his own? I doubt it personally.

If Chapman is such a prat, and I don't think he is having watched him several times, then why the feck did Mowbray sign him having known the lad for years!!!  By the way, he's just 22 so hardly a veteran and only a year or two older than the likes of Rankin-Costello, Buckley, Mols, Davenport.

2 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

It’s not a myth mate because ‘budget’ refers to fees plus wages. It’s everything combined. And our ‘budget’ is mid to lower table.

So, with your argument, if Mowbray hadn't of, IMO, spunked away £12million+ in fees and committed the club to big wages on Brereton and Gallagher, the pot would have been at least £20million bigger over a 4 year period.  I think he's had the resource, and even told us he only needs to ask for more!, and blown it!!! 

You optimise the resource you have - that is good management.  Sheff U and Brentford have shown the way probably with budgets less than ours.  IMO, Mowbray has failed and we need someone who knows the market and can work it.

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by Mercer

[Paul Mani]

57 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

How blasé of him. ‘Ah well, £12 million down the toilet, I’ll have a look at Europe next.’

I don’t think it was pitched in a blasé way tbf. He is working with a budget and they decided to spend big-ish money on young players who they think will develop into top players.

I thought this was him accepting that if they could buy a player further into their development from Europe for half the price and stay within the wage structure then they would potentially be able to buy “a couple” and therefore benefit more in the short term. Seemed more like evolution. Whether it works or not remains to be seen.

[Paul Mani]

@Mercer 
 

You optimise the resource you have - that is good management.  Sheff U and Brentford have shown the way probably with budgets less than ours.  IMO, Mowbray has failed and we need someone who knows the market and can work it.

I couldn’t agree more.