Slow Build?

[Mashed Potatoes]

3 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I appreciate the the phrase "Mowbray out brigade" proves that you are just provoking and on the wind up but your comparison makes no sense. As you said, Brentford havent had the same manager all the way through so how can you compare? People wanted him out because at one point there were serious questions about the scope for progression under Mowbray, the big money twice thrown away created huge doubts and before the last international break we were looking no better than last season.

No wind up - perfectly valid to demonstrate that things can take time and those demanding success yesterday- the ones who quote the likes of Sheffield United etc - need to understand that.

[Colt Seavers]

48 minutes ago, The Hypnotic said:

New series is out now. Available for download in a legally dubious way or it is also being shown on sky Atlantic a few weeks behind. Some great jokes in this season which I’ll not spoil for you!
 

Curb is one of the best shows on TV, I hope you enjoy it @allroverasia. 

The new series (or season as everyone likes to say now ?) is showing on Sky Comedy which is channel 113. Episode four of series ten was shown last night and repeated on successive Sundays.

[DE.]

Just now, Mashed Potatoes said:

No wind up - perfectly valid to demonstrate that things can take time and those demanding success yesterday- the ones who quote the likes of Sheffield United etc - need to understand that.

Brentford changed managers multiple times though, so how does it make sense to compare that situation with people who want Mowbray to move on? 

[Mashed Potatoes]

1 minute ago, DE. said:

Brentford changed managers multiple times though, so how does it make sense to compare that situation with people who want Mowbray to move on? 

Because the club is clearly making progress under Mowbray.

[DE.]

4 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

Because the club is clearly making progress under Mowbray.

Warburton and Franke got Brentford into playoff contention faster than Mowbray has for us though.

Regardless of that the big difference between Brentford and ourselves is that at Brentford the owner and his staff are dictating the policies, whilst at Rovers for some reason the first team manager is doing that job for the most part. At Brentford the removal of a manager merely changes the playing side of things (much like Watford) whereas with us losing Mowbray would potentially cause a complete implosion as he is both manager and club visionary. Our structure is fraught with significantly more risk than Brentford's because of that. 

Edited February 19, 2020 by DE.

[Mashed Potatoes]

Just now, DE. said:

Warburton and Franke got Brentford into playoff contention faster than Mowbray has for us though.

Regardless of that the big difference between Brentford and ourselves is that at Brentford the owner and his staff are dictating the policies, whilst at Rovers for some reason the first team manager is doing that job for the most part. At Brentford the removal of a manager merely changes the playing side of things (much like Watford) whereas with us losing Mowbray would potentially cause a complete implosion as he is both manager and club visionary. Our structure is fraught with significantly more risk than Brentford's because of that. 

Yes, that is a good analysis of the situation and points to why moving Mowbray on is fraught with risk.

[Pedro]

39 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

Because the club is clearly making progress under Mowbray.

Clearly?

Is it really?  It seems on a par from when Bowyer was here but with a squad with far less value.  We've still achieved nothing and yet to reach the playoffs. Fingers crossed, by the end of the season that we do make some genuine progress and finish top 6.

[chaddyrovers]

58 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I appreciate the the phrase "Mowbray out brigade" proves that you are just provoking and on the wind up but your comparison makes no sense. As you said, Brentford havent had the same manager all the way through so how can you compare? People wanted him out because at one point there were serious questions about the scope for progression under Mowbray, the big money twice thrown away created huge doubts and before the last international break we were looking no better than last season.

Yes you are right we seem to be going nowhere in league table and results wise   But the last 17 games we achieved 32 points. 1st in that table. 

Now we seen progress and we going forward as a club. We are looking up and getting a playoff place

[Amo]

Weird how certain people are Mowbray fans first, Rovers fans second.

Wouldn't be surprised if the club had plants on here.

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, DE. said:

Warburton and Franke got Brentford into playoff contention faster than Mowbray has for us though.

Regardless of that the big difference between Brentford and ourselves is that at Brentford the owner and his staff are dictating the policies, whilst at Rovers for some reason the first team manager is doing that job for the most part. At Brentford the removal of a manager merely changes the playing side of things (much like Watford) whereas with us losing Mowbray would potentially cause a complete implosion as he is both manager and club visionary. Our structure is fraught with significantly more risk than Brentford's because of that. 

Which is why this club should be set up like others are to withstand that kind of thing but it isn't.  Never has been under these lot that's why its floundered so much. The football managerial position is basically boss of the club.  Dangerous because at some point it will implode again unless Mowbray basically has a job for life.

[DE.]

Just now, tomphil said:

Which is why this club should be set up like others are to withstand that kind of thing but it isn't.  Never has been under these lot that's why its floundered so much. The football managerial position is basically boss of the club.  Dangerous because at some point it will implode again unless Mowbray basically has a job for life.

Completely agree. I've been harping on about our dysfunctional structure since the Bowyer days (well, even before then, but the Shebby/Shelfy/Agnew BS was a whole new level of insanity). 5 years since GB was sacked and we're back in more or less the exact same position. Much like GB, Mowbray simply has too much on his plate and as a result ends up getting blamed for things that really should have little to do with him - particularly schemes like the European scouting initiative which he should have input in but not be spearheading. 

This is why I can't really take seriously the suggestion that Venky's have learned anything. Until club duties are more evenly spread out and not all placed squarely on the manager's shoulders we're still nowhere close to where we need to be as a well-run club. I genuinely do appreciate TM's efforts but he shouldn't need to have so much responsibility on top of his first team duties.

[Adam C]

1 hour ago, Pedro said:

Clearly?

Is it really?  It seems on a par from when Bowyer was here but with a squad with far less value.  We've still achieved nothing and yet to reach the playoffs. Fingers crossed, by the end of the season that we do make some genuine progress and finish top 6.

I think we have a more balanced squad since then, although I take your point that bowyer achieved a very respectable final league position. 
 

Nevertheless, we have been relegated since bowyer was at the helm so you can’t deny that TM has clearly improved the squad, the ethos of the club, and the league position. I’d also like to suggest that the youth prospects making a name for themselves owe a lot to being blooded and kept in the squad by TM, so arguably we are progressing in development terms as well.

[DE.]

I think it's completely fair to say we are progessing under Mowbray compared to where we were when he arrived. The pace of that progression is up for debate but as it stands we're looking good to potentially finish higher in the table than we did last season which can't be seen as anything other than an improvement - particularly with so many top players injured. Ironically we seem to do better when we have injuries but that's another topic for discussion entirely. 

I'd say we're more or less back to where we were under GB at present. Probably a slightly less talented overall squad but essentially right back to playoff hopefuls who never quite break into the top six. To get back to that position from where we were at our lowest under Coyle is an achievement and it would be churlish imo to suggest otherwise, it's just a case of whether Mowbray can push us beyond that barrier into genuine playoff contenders rather than pretenders.

Edited February 19, 2020 by DE.

[Admiral Nelsen]

11 hours ago, Husky said:

Does it refer to building Rovers Financially or Team Progression on the Pitch. As those 2 things are contradictory - as 'making money' would imply selling your best players for a profit which would of course weaken the team.

I don't think these ideas are necessarily contradictory. Look at Brentford, they continually invest in good young project players and implement principles about how to play etc whilst occasionally selling the crown jewels for big money, then reinvest. You could argue this was the Hughes model when he was at Rovers.

[47er]

4 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I appreciate the the phrase "Mowbray out brigade" proves that you are just provoking and on the wind up but your comparison makes no sense. As you said, Brentford havent had the same manager all the way through so how can you compare? People wanted him out because at one point there were serious questions about the scope for progression under Mowbray, the big money twice thrown away created huge doubts and before the last international break we were looking no better than last season.

He's trolling alright but that's a Mods judgement I guess.

Edited February 19, 2020 by 47er

[Guest]

16 hours ago, S8 & Blue said:

Some REALLY selective stats there, it's basically just not true.

Norwich? Huddersfield? Sheffield Utd? Cardiff? Burnley? 

Forest and Derby have spent shit-tons - and both Leeds and Preston are in the autos and top 6.

 

 There's more than one way to skin a cat, and I'd certainly prefer we do it in a smart and sustainable way - maybe that's just me?

Norwich wasn't a slow build... they came back up on PL money from their parachute payments...  Unless you mean Norwich of old which just like Burnley just isn't the same.

Burnley (& Norwich if thats when you mean) was a long time ago, the Championship has changed, much more money involved now...

[Guest]

14 hours ago, jim mk2 said:

Brentford a good example of a "slow build". The club has been on the up for a few years thanks to good management. I wouldn't put us in their class though - they have very good people at the top with a clear sense of direction. 

They're an example of a slow build sure, but if and when they don't get promotion this season, sell Benrahama and Watkins, they have to start over again. Brentford have a model which makes them some money and keeps them in the Top 10, but the model has factually failed in getting them promotion for a very long time. 

Are we here to make money on investments in footballers, or get promoted? Football should be, and should feel like sport, not the stock exchange.

[47er]

46 minutes ago, JoeH said:

They're an example of a slow build sure, but if and when they don't get promotion this season, sell Benrahama and Watkins, they have to start over again. Brentford have a model which makes them some money and keeps them in the Top 10, but the model has factually failed in getting them promotion for a very long time. 

Are we here to make money on investments in footballers, or get promoted? Football should be, and should feel like sport, not the stock exchange.

If we sell Dack and Linihan or Armstrong, same thing applies to us doesn't it? We usually do!

[DE.]

It's been a while since we've had to sell a 'crown jewel'. I don't really count Raya as by all accounts that was the manager's decision, not something forced upon us. In fact since Mowbray arrived have we had to sell any star players at all? I can't remember any off the top of my head although I may just be forgetful. 

As far as Brentford are concerned unless they get promoted their model is only successful from a financial standpoint. If the goal is to get promoted they haven't gotten there yet.

[47er]

16 minutes ago, DE. said:

It's been a while since we've had to sell a 'crown jewel'. I don't really count Raya as by all accounts that was the manager's decision, not something forced upon us. In fact since Mowbray arrived have we had to sell any star players at all? I can't remember any off the top of my head although I may just be forgetful. 

As far as Brentford are concerned unless they get promoted their model is only successful from a financial standpoint. If the goal is to get promoted they haven't gotten there yet.

Wasn't Dack being lined up for £20M to West Brom but he ruined it when he got injured?

Duffy and Josh King sold 2015(?)

Gestade and Rhodes were the "crown jewels" of the day. Sold 2015 and 2016.

As Parson will surely confirm we've been selling our crown jewels since time began!

The only reason we haven't sold any under TM is because we didn't have any in the first place apart from Dack! And he was surely on his way.

For a while now people have thought we'd probably get our money back if we sold Armstrong but his recent form has other clubs watching apparently.

And, also apparently, Rovers have put a "10 figure fee"on him. That story is everywhere.

Venkys are licking their lips, don't worry about that.Travis also likely to attract interest and Dack if he recovers and gets back to his best.

Don't think Venkys care about the club's prospects, they didn't when our Premier League side was trashed before we got relegated, they didn't when Bowyer's side was sold off under him.

 

 

[DE.]

1 minute ago, 47er said:

Wasn't Dack being lined up for £20M to West Brom but he ruined it when he got injured?

Duffy and Josh King sold 2015(?)

Gestade and Rhodes were the "crown jewels" of the day. Sold 2015 and 2016.

As Parson will surely confirm we've been selling our crown jewels since time began!

The only reason we haven't sold any under TM is because we didn't have any in the first place apart from Dack! And he was surely on his way.

For a while now people have thought we'd probably get our money back if we sold Armstrong but his recent form has other clubs watching apparently.

And, also apparently, Rovers have put a "10 figure fee"on him. That story is everywhere.

Venkys are licking their lips, don't worry about that.Travis also likely to attract interest and Dack if he recovers and gets back to his best.

Don't think Venkys care about the club's prospects, they didn't when our Premier League side was trashed before we got relegated, they didn't when Bowyer's side was sold off under him.

I have no idea regarding the Dack story. Seems like it's just speculation but certainly wouldn't surprise me.

IMV Tony has been quite lucky to be in a position where he hasn't had to sell any of his star players. We kept all of our decent Championship players when we got relegated which gave us by far the best squad in L1, and since getting promoted we have exclusively added to the squad to the tune of £14-15m without the requirement to sell anybody. Most managers would be very happy with that arrangement so you can't really criticise Venky's for that. 

With that said we saw with Bowyer how the taps can be turned off in an instant, so I'm expecting the worst at some point. We're never far away from falling off a cliff edge with the current owners at the helm. They can't help but push the self-destruct button every few years just to remind us how incompetent they are.

[Bigdoggsteel]

17 hours ago, AllRoverAsia said:

I've just obtained S10E05 as a first watch test.

Apologies for any Thread diversion, don't fret its a Slow Build

I would say jumping into a later episode is a good idea rather than going with episode 1 , season 1. If I recall correctly, I think season 4,5,6 were excellent. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

15 hours ago, Pedro said:

Clearly?

Is it really?  It seems on a par from when Bowyer was here but with a squad with far less value.  We've still achieved nothing and yet to reach the playoffs. Fingers crossed, by the end of the season that we do make some genuine progress and finish top 6.

This is completely incorrect. How in gods name do you come to that conclusion? Dack alone is worth more than the combined sales under Bowyer. Armstrong, Lenihan, Travis etc etc 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Bigdoggsteel

[47er]

1 hour ago, DE. said:

I have no idea regarding the Dack story. Seems like it's just speculation but certainly wouldn't surprise me.

IMV Tony has been quite lucky to be in a position where he hasn't had to sell any of his star players. We kept all of our decent Championship players when we got relegated which gave us by far the best squad in L1, and since getting promoted we have exclusively added to the squad to the tune of £14-15m without the requirement to sell anybody. Most managers would be very happy with that arrangement so you can't really criticise Venky's for that. 

With that said we saw with Bowyer how the taps can be turned off in an instant, so I'm expecting the worst at some point. We're never far away from falling off a cliff edge with the current owners at the helm. They can't help but push the self-destruct button every few years just to remind us how incompetent they are.

Yep! Agree with all of that!

[47er]

6 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

This is completely incorrect. How in gods name do you come to that conclusion? Dack alone is worth more than the combined sales under Bowyer 

2 points---- Football transfer fees have gone up exponentially so your comparison falls down in that regard.

Secondly, Venkys, for some reason at that time, made no effort to get the best fee possible for Duffy or King. Ridiculously low.

Bowyer's record on transfers in is way better than Tony's I'm afraid.