Football League Suspended

[roversfan99]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

The rules between premiership and Championship are they to protect clubs in football league clubs from the Premier clubs stopping them going up. So if we null and void the season as you have suggest you want then those clubs in the bottom 3 clubs in the Premier League can get loads of cash for another season whilst stopping clubs who should go in from the Football league don't get any cash. Imagine what that cash windfall will do to club like Brentford or Rovers. Massively income for the club plus more sponsorship and revenue from it. Football club is a business in one sense. 

Its their league at the end of the day and given clubs a vote in how to complete the season is democracy and saying its your decision to make. The EFL will work with them to implement what their decision they made. 

Well what other way cos you decide the season if you don't use Points Per Game system? Look at Coventry situation who were going to win the league if we didn't have this Coronavirus. Is it fair that they don't go up? Is it fair to a club like Stanley to tell them to unfurlough their players and get them to sign new contract for a extra month costly Andy Holt money who is the chairman there so you can complete whilst he doesn't want to? Or look at Wycombe who has spent the longest in the top 2 all season and have still have 10 games to play where has other clubs have only 8 games to play but are outside the playoffs currently? SO how would you sort such a situation out in League 1? Imagine what an increase in Money received from EFL and Sponsorship would do for Wycombe or Coventry as club? is it fair on those clubs to miss on a substantial windfall that would improve the club and could be used to improve the football club?

This is very unique situation for the football world but they can find a way past these problems. 

In my opinion, you have made 2 huge errors in understanding my points, either accidentally or purposely which are clouding your judgement.

Number 1, you have misunderstood my suggestion. It is a simple rule, if leagues are completed, then promotions and relegations go ahead. Moving down the leagues, once you get to the point that a division CANNOT be completed, then at that point as a complete rule going downwards, there are no promotions/relegations. You cannot relegate and promote teams on incomplete seasons.

I have repeatedly said that my suggestion, accepting that as a minimum the top 2 divisions are going to be completed, Premier League and promotion chasing Championship clubs will NOT be affected as you seem to have misunderstood. Promotions and relegations between those divisions CAN be allowed because both divisions will have completed the full set of fixtures, including play offs, therefore it is then as fair as it is going to be to promote and relegate 3 clubs between these as normal. It is unfair to promote and relegate teams based on an unfinished season, that is my point, and extrapolating results is not a fair way of doing so, it is not the best remaining way to do so, it would make a mockery of the integrity of the football league. This would be typically prevalent where the lowest complete league meets the highest incomplete league, and you throw inconsistency into the mix, replacing teams that have played 46 teams from one league with games who have played 30 odd games.

Number 2, you have failed to grasp that there is NO 100% fair way in the current situation, and there will be winners and losers to all suggestions, so you cant sympathise and empathise with individual clubs and pander to them, you have to look at the overall picture. For every Coventry, there is a Peterborough, for every Wycombe, there is an Accrington Stanley, for every Charlton there is a Sunderland. Theres also a touch of personal bias mentioning Rovers but see point number 1 as to how we wont be affected anyway) All you can do is come up with the fairest way. Assuming that some divisions will be completed, how I have outlined in Point 1 is not perfect, no way is, but IMO the most consistent, fair and common sense approach to a very difficult situation. If they need to vote to determine if League 1 can be completed, then fine, and if it can, it still all falls under my proposal above.

[Mattyblue]

Fair play to you ‘99, indefatigable.

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, Stuart said:

The reason null and void is the best option is because it has an equal outcome for everyone. The unprecedented nature of this means it should be possible.

Which Championship teams “deserve to go up”? As not a single team has mathematically been promoted or relegated their is / was still time for anything to happen.

PPG is arbitrary as not all matches are equal and players go in and out of form and fitness.

There is no good way of doing this from a competition perspective, which is why restarting this season in September was fairest and also supported a safety first approach.

BCD just serves to further prove that TV is more important than fans. On  note, I don’t see any reason why 3pm kick offs should be sacrosanct in future. This pretence that it will stop fans going to games is a hollow argument.

No Stuart Null and void was the worst case idea. Look at 3 French clubs complaining about the France season being cancelled so soon.

The teams that finished in the top 2 after 46 games deserve to go up that's why completing the season is right.

Why September?

Isnt a safety first approach happening right now with the private testing which has results in only 2 positive test in Premier League and 2 Positive test in Championship.  

[roversfan99]

18 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Fair play to you ‘99, indefatigable.

Haha beyond that I think!

[Stuart]

2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

No Stuart Null and void was the worst case idea. Look at 3 French clubs complaining about the France season being cancelled so soon.

The teams that finished in the top 2 after 46 games deserve to go up that's why completing the season is right.

Why September?

Isnt a safety first approach happening right now with the private testing which has results in only 2 positive test in Premier League and 2 Positive test in Championship.  

By what yardstick is it ‘worst case’ in your opinion..?

Null and void is the only ‘equal’ way of ending the season because it contains the least number of assumptions.

Any other mathematical calculation will discriminate against some teams because it will be too simplistic. Null and void doesn’t discriminate against anyone, it says this season didn’t happen. It didn’t happen because it didn’t finish and at the time it was suspended no positions (champions/promotions/relegations) were confirmed.

Is it fair to relegate Charlton when one result against the PPG trend to date could keep them up?

There is a lot at stake in inventing new rules which are applied after the season has begun which is why they will have reached a conclusion to continue the season.

At the point it is all about timing.

One can certainly NOT describe the current approach and timing as safety first. It is absolutely TV money first, safety a secondary consideration to be managed - and with one eye firmly on next season also to avoid losing TV money.

Let’s just hope that it goes well. On a side note, perhaps fines should be introduced to clamp down on spitting (including goalkeepers on their gloves) to help to reduce risk of transmission.

[chaddyrovers]

@roversfan99, The clubs in League 1 have a voted and from what I have read and listen to they will vote end the season and have playoffs and relegations based on Points Per Game. The EFL have allowed clubs to decide the future of the league. Its a simple vote and the a majority wins. Its allows Clubs to decide. Its the fairest way. Not ideal but EFL have played a blinder here by allow league 1 clubs to decide. Also stop legal challenges. Yes you care right they will be losers and winners. But they could restart the season and finish the season but some clubs don't want to like Stanley. You aren't going to pleased every club in unique situation. 

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, Stuart said:

By what yardstick is it ‘worst case’ in your opinion..?

Null and void is the only ‘equal’ way of ending the season because it contains the least number of assumptions.

Any other mathematical calculation will discriminate against some teams because it will be too simplistic. Null and void doesn’t discriminate against anyone, it says this season didn’t happen. It didn’t happen because it didn’t finish and at the time it was suspended no positions (champions/promotions/relegations) were confirmed.

There is a lot at stake in inventing new rules which are applied after the season has begun which is why they will have reached a conclusion to continue the season.

At the point it is all about timing.

One can certainly NOT describe the current approach and timing as safety first. It is absolutely TV money first, safety a secondary consideration to be managed - and with one eye firmly on next season also to avoid losing TV money.

Let’s just hope that it goes well. On a side note, perhaps fines should be introduced to clamp down on spitting (including goalkeepers on their gloves) to help to reduce risk of transmission.

Cos Teams like Coventry deserve to go up after a brilliant season and playing some good attacking football/. Surely its discriminate against them to not allow them promotion. 

That's why the EFL have given their League 1 clubs a vote to decide.  Carry on the season or end the season on Points Per Game system with Playoffs. TH=he EFL are trying to fair to the clubs by allowing them to decide and not make the decision for them. Cant be challenge legal either 

We don't know what going on with next season or the transfer window yet. Would expect a start date of early to middle of October With the EFL trophy and League cup going. Possible the FA cup aswell to ensure that all the league season will be completed. What about European club football competitions and Euro 2021? what going to happen with them. 

Agree on the last point

[roversfan99]

25 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

@roversfan99, The clubs in League 1 have a voted and from what I have read and listen to they will vote end the season and have playoffs and relegations based on Points Per Game. The EFL have allowed clubs to decide the future of the league. Its a simple vote and the a majority wins. Its allows Clubs to decide. Its the fairest way. Not ideal but EFL have played a blinder here by allow league 1 clubs to decide. Also stop legal challenges. Yes you care right they will be losers and winners. But they could restart the season and finish the season but some clubs don't want to like Stanley. You aren't going to pleased every club in unique situation. 

It might be the fairest way to allow League 1 clubs to decide if they can conclude the league or not perhaps. But points per game should not be an option. Finish in full or not at all.

Also no way will prevent the risk of legal action, this is something you cannot seem to grasped. No matter what the conclusion is, there will be teams that miss out on promotion, that are relegated etc that wouldnt have been had another method been used. Im sute that Peterboroughs idiotic chairman has insinuated that it wont be the end of the matter if they use points per game for example.

My suggestion ensures that the season is either finished IN FULL or not at all, no half measures. Its the points per game thing that really I am opposed too. It is a ridicilious half measure that shouldnt be considered.

As I have said, I suspect that you are either purposely not grasping my simple proposal (finish divisions until the point where it becomes impossible logistically, the leagues that are finished incur titles, promotions and relegations as normal, up until the point where divisions cannot be completed as to which the season is written off) for wind up purposes or you cannot understand said simple proposal. If its the former more fool me, if its the latter more fool us both, either way more fool every poor bugger who has had to read it ?

[Stuart]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

Cos Teams like Coventry deserve to go up after a brilliant season and playing some good attacking football/. Surely its discriminate against them to not allow them promotion. 

That's why the EFL have given their League 1 clubs a vote to decide.  Carry on the season or end the season on Points Per Game system with Playoffs. TH=he EFL are trying to fair to the clubs by allowing them to decide and not make the decision for them. Cant be challenge legal either 

We don't know what going on with next season or the transfer window yet. Would expect a start date of early to middle of October With the EFL trophy and League cup going. Possible the FA cup aswell to ensure that all the league season will be completed. What about European club football competitions and Euro 2021? what going to happen with them. 

Agree on the last point

I think you’ve picked a bad example with Coventry. Rotherham and Oxford could both overtake them with 9 games to play. The bookies might say different but it certainly isn’t impossible for them not to go up.

The only team who deserve to go up - much as it sticks in the craw - is Liverpool. But even so, a PPG finish is completely unfair. A vote by teams doesn’t make it more fair, it just makes it agreed. But even then - 16 teams would happily vote because it would keep the status quo. The relegated teams plus maybe Wolves who might feel they can nick 5th from Man Utd and Champions League at City’s expense (assuming it happens in 2020/21). Does that make it fair on Bournemouth who would lose millions based on goal difference and who will feel they can more than stay up.

Null and void is the only fair way. Give Liverpool the league title but no promotions or relegations. No team has got there.

It’s not going to happen of course, BCD will happen at all costs - even at the risk of players and their families’ health.

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

It might be the fairest way to allow League 1 clubs to decide if they can conclude the league or not perhaps. But points per game should not be an option. Finish in full or not at all.

Also no way will prevent the risk of legal action, this is something you cannot seem to grasped. No matter what the conclusion is, there will be teams that miss out on promotion, that are relegated etc that wouldnt have been had another method been used. Im sute that Peterboroughs idiotic chairman has insinuated that it wont be the end of the matter if they use points per game for example.

League 1 clubs have a choice either vote to continue the season or end the season and do a Points Per Game system to see who is in the Playoffs. That's why on offer from EFL.

How can the legal challenge it when its the 23 League 1 clubs who have decide on the proposal by EFL and do it a Democracy way by a Vote? 

 

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

As I have said, I suspect that you are either purposely not grasping my simple proposal

I don't agree with your proposal. 

[chaddyrovers]

24 minutes ago, Stuart said:

I think you’ve picked a bad example with Coventry. Rotherham and Oxford could both overtake them with 9 games to play. The bookies might say different but it certainly isn’t impossible for them not to go up.

The only team who deserve to go up - much as it sticks in the craw - is Liverpool. But even so, a PPG finish is completely unfair. A vote by teams doesn’t make it more fair, it just makes it agreed. But even then - 16 teams would happily vote because it would keep the status quo. The relegated teams plus maybe Wolves who might feel they can nick 5th from Man Utd and Champions League at City’s expense (assuming it happens in 2020/21). Does that make it fair on Bournemouth who would lose millions based on goal difference and who will feel they can more than stay up.

Null and void is the only fair way. Give Liverpool the league title but no promotions or relegations. No team has got there.

It’s not going to happen of course, BCD will happen at all costs - even at the risk of players and their families’ health.

weren't talking about the Premier League finishing on PPG system as they aren't. They are resume the season. Just like the championship. 

League 1 will finish on PPG for sure

It will be behind close doors for around 6 months. and around 4 weeks will be the closed season anyway

[Stuart]

17 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

weren't talking about the Premier League finishing on PPG system as they aren't. They are resume the season. Just like the championship. 

League 1 will finish on PPG for sure

It will be behind close doors for around 6 months. and around 4 weeks will be the closed season anyway

Which, again, is what I said.

However, if L1 and the Championship end the season differently then there should be no movement of teams between the two.

The integrity is lost.

[roversfan99]

17 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Which, again, is what I said.

However, if L1 and the Championship end the season differently then there should be no movement of teams between the two.

The integrity is lost.

100%. Youve either completed a season or you havent.

[RevidgeBlue]

9 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

It has. But the football authorities continue to bang on about ‘sporting integrity’ It’s a load of bollocks, any chance of that has long gone whatever method they use.

The top two divisions will re-start to ensure the cash keeps rolling in - which is a perfectly legitimate reason to get back on the pitch, considering what could happen to clubs if we don’t  - but just stop with the pretence it’s for any other reason than cold hard cash.

I really don't understand the argument against football coming back, it's an absolute no brainer.

1) There's no doubt that the primary reason Clubs are coming back is money but they aren't coming back purely to line their own pockets, in the vast majority of cases they're coming back to try and ensure their very survival.

2) On the sporting integrity issue, if you take the view that crowds can't be allowed back into grounds yet, there is no perfect solution which is as fair as it was pre lockdown.

Playing the fixtures out in full behind closed doors if finances allow is the least worst option.

Finishing the season now, extrapolating the final positions out on a points pet game basis, then holding play offs as normal to decide on promotion and relegation is the next least worst option  for me followed by doing the same only without the play offs.

The least desirable and most unfair option is imo just scrapping the season and declaring all results null and void. That means if you've had a belting season all your effort has been for nothing and if you've stuck the place out, you've got away with it Scott free.

Other non-essential businesses are now being expected to return on the 15th of June and the employees there don't have the luxury of being fully screened for any underlying health conditions and regularly tested that top footballers have.

The only possible argument against football returning is that it diverts resources away from other areas and I can't see that there's any problem now with the availability of tests, if there is one, more the mechanics of getting the tests to people and processing the results.  

 

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, RevidgeBlue said:

I really don't understand the argument against football coming back, it's an absolute no brainer.

1) There's no doubt that the primary reason Clubs are coming back is money but they aren't coming back purely to line their own pockets, in the vast majority of cases they're coming back to try and ensure their very survival.

2) On the sporting integrity issue, if you take the view that crowds can't be allowed back into grounds yet, there is no perfect solution which is as fair as it was pre lockdown.

Playing the fixtures out in full behind closed doors if finances allow is the least worst option.

Finishing the season now, extrapolating the final positions out on a points pet game basis, then holding play offs as normal to decide on promotion and relegation is the next least worst option  for me followed by doing the same only without the play offs.

The least desirable and most unfair option is imo just scrapping the season and declaring all results null and void. That means if you've had a belting season all your effort has been for nothing and if you've stuck the place out, you've got away with it Scott free.

Other non-essential businesses are now being expected to return on the 15th of June and the employees there don't have the luxury of being fully screened for any underlying health conditions and regularly tested that top footballers have.

The only possible argument against football returning is that it diverts resources away from other areas and I can't see that there's any problem now with the availability of tests, if there is one, more the mechanics of getting the tests to people and processing the results.  

 

If we are taking without argument and debate that the season is going to be finished for the Premier League, Championship and perhaps League 1, then fair enough, in the absence of any possibility of a truly fair conclusion, playing the games behind closed doors and actually finishing the season seems the fairest way to conclude things, if logistics allow. Whilst morals and safety issue come into that debate, if you put them to one side and just ask what is the fairest possible way, at least that involves playing a full fixture list out. Certainly dont disagree there.

Its the issue of points per game fuelled finalised league tables v null and void that seems to cause controversy now. I appreciate that cancelling a season as null and void is not ideal by any stretch of the imagination but it goes without saying that a season is far from over with a quarter still to go. The season was halted suddenly and ultimately in these leagues cannot be feasibly concluded but you cant just start changing divisions based on where a team was when that sudden halt came into play. 

There are 2 differently affected scenarios. Where 2 non completed leagues meet, and where a concluded league meets an unconcluded league. The latter scenario also would show blatant inconsistency and disregard to any integrity.

You cant extrapolate divisions based on three quarters of a season, with differing difficulties of fixtures left remaining. A season is either completed or it isnt.

[Mattyblue]

I didn’t say the clubs were after ‘lining their pockets’, it is about survival, crazy really considering just much cash they’ve had every year, but when you see bang average footballers driving Bentley’s and living in mansions, it doesn’t take a genius to see why the club’s are in such a mess.

It is the disingenuous utterances coming out of the authorities about ‘fairness’ and ‘integrity’ that riles, it’s about the money, pure and simple (otherwise they’d have followed the approach of League 2), and that’s fine, because the alternative isn’t worth thinking about, but don’t insult fans’ intelligence.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Mattyblue

[Stuart]

9 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

I really don't understand the argument against football coming back, it's an absolute no brainer.

1) There's no doubt that the primary reason Clubs are coming back is money but they aren't coming back purely to line their own pockets, in the vast majority of cases they're coming back to try and ensure their very survival.

2) On the sporting integrity issue, if you take the view that crowds can't be allowed back into grounds yet, there is no perfect solution which is as fair as it was pre lockdown.

Playing the fixtures out in full behind closed doors if finances allow is the least worst option.

Finishing the season now, extrapolating the final positions out on a points pet game basis, then holding play offs as normal to decide on promotion and relegation is the next least worst option  for me followed by doing the same only without the play offs.

The least desirable and most unfair option is imo just scrapping the season and declaring all results null and void. That means if you've had a belting season all your effort has been for nothing and if you've stuck the place out, you've got away with it Scott free.

Other non-essential businesses are now being expected to return on the 15th of June and the employees there don't have the luxury of being fully screened for any underlying health conditions and regularly tested that top footballers have.

The only possible argument against football returning is that it diverts resources away from other areas and I can't see that there's any problem now with the availability of tests, if there is one, more the mechanics of getting the tests to people and processing the results.  

I agree there is no perfect solution. However, the null and void route is the only one that is even-handed to all clubs and doesn’t require some erroneous assumptions. PPG being the worst, it’s basically the same as ending the season now but accommodates the fact that four PL clubs have played a game less. There’s nearly a quarter of the season to go - the business and of the season which traditionally results in some very unexpected results and positions. The idea that this can just be smoothed and be called integrity is false. This is the worst option to be able to call the season a ‘competition’ - which is what I would consider integrity to mean.

It’s all well and good saying “but we’ve had a belting season” - this is an unprecedented global pandemic.

The idea that clubs will go to the wall without TV money - which ones? Why does it not matter that L1 and L2 teams can lose crucial income but PL and CH must get theirs?

If there is no provision in the EFL rules as laid out at the start of the season for a premature end then it has to be null and void. Any new vote put to clubs to amend the rules now will have an inevitable end as clubs will vote for their own interests, and there are only a few that will see themselves as turkeys at Christmas.

All that said, it is understandable why the authorities was to avoid this legal minefield by finishing the season on the pitch. But even that isn’t clean because fans not being their changed the game from what it was. The big teams hugely favoured. Seems to me as though this all centres around the top clubs potentially going bust because United, Liverpool, Arsenal are more important than Bury, Bolton et al.

[Stuart]

You have to wonder if anything good will come out of this epidemic for the future of football. Will any lessons be learned?

Right now it seems as though the lower leagues are going to be the hardest hit and yet are receiving the least concern: No income for the remainder of this season; uncertainty around next season (unlike the “TV owned” sides they cannot operate without fans attending); pay cuts/caps for players which will likely see quality suffer, and create an even bigger financial gap between the Championship and League One akin to the PL/CH one. (Would the top two divisions introduce pay caps - moreover would the top divisions in Europe do the same?)

PL1 and PL2 by stealth perhaps, no, not stealth, opportunism?

People seem to be worried about the integrity of the game when the integrity has already been lost, probably years ago, but certainly when the PL, the Championship, and the “rest of the EFL” are making different decisions for different reasons. The PL and Championship cannot afford to lose significant TV money so are throwing money at testing to create a “football cocoon”, meanwhile the bottom two tiers are cocooning football because they don’t get significant TV money and cannot afford to throw any at testing.

Whilst “we are all in it together” should be the mantra of the so-called football family, it’s hard to bet against it emerging more divided than ever into ‘haves’ and ‘have nots’. By supporting the finance-driven agenda of the ‘haves’ and at the same time allowing the financial vacuum for the ‘have nots’ (rather than insisting on a single football ruling) the FA - and indeed the government - are (once again) failing the national sport and promoting even greater football inequality.

[J*B]

Elliott Bennett tests positive for COVID-19. 

[Hasta]

16 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

@roversfan99, The clubs in League 1 have a voted and from what I have read and listen to they will vote end the season and have playoffs and relegations based on Points Per Game. The EFL have allowed clubs to decide the future of the league. Its a simple vote and the a majority wins. Its allows Clubs to decide. Its the fairest way. Not ideal but EFL have played a blinder here by allow league 1 clubs to decide. Also stop legal challenges. Yes you care right they will be losers and winners. But they could restart the season and finish the season but some clubs don't want to like Stanley. You aren't going to pleased every club in unique situation. 

Tranmere have won their last 3 games, and are now only 3 points from safety with a game in hand.

Nothing about them being relegated on a PPG basis would be fair, just because Accy Stanley and a lot of other clubs with nothing to play for want to save money.

The should have asked the league one and league two clubs to vote on should the season continue, or should it end and be void now. Most clubs would have chosen to void, so that would also have been the majority of the clubs wishes. That would have allowed the clubs to save money and no-one would have been penalised. 

@roversfan99 is right that the only way you should have promotion and relegation is when the season is finished. Therefore if PL and Championship play it out then you can have promotion / relegation between those leagues, but no-one goes down from the Championship.

[Sparks Rover]

3 minutes ago, J*B said:

Elliott Bennett tests positive for COVID-19. 

That's a big surprise,  he's not been able to catch fuck all for ages......

Get well soon, Ell.

[K-Hod]

5 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

That's a big surprise,  he's not been able to catch fuck all for ages......

Get well soon, Ell.

I think that’s the nicest thing you’ve ever said about him!

[Cherry Blue]

51 minutes ago, J*B said:

Elliott Bennett tests positive for COVID-19. 

So under the new tracing system does that mean anyone he came into contact with has to self-isolate for 14 days?

[rigger]

7 minutes ago, Cherry Blue said:

So under the new tracing system does that mean anyone he came into contact with has to self-isolate for 14 days?

No, the contacts would be tested, anyone who tests positive would have to self-isolate.

[Stuart]

11 minutes ago, rigger said:

No, the contacts would be tested, anyone who tests positive would have to self-isolate.

This isn’t true. Anyone he has been into contact with should receive a call or some form of contact from NHS tracing and told to self-isolate for 14 days. They should then get tested and then self isolate for 7 days of positive or return to normal if negative.

However, as this is football everyone at the club will be getting a retest today.

Straight to the front of the queue.

We really should have a better idea now - through testing - where the hotspots are.