98/99 Relegation?

[Amo]

3 hours ago, Inglorious basturk said:

I’m sure that was the season twat sherwood went out of his way to get Perez sent off . I may be dreaming but twat le saux was involved . They went a long way in forcing Roy out 

Good memory

https://youtu.be/fELb7VvjBRk

Skip to the 7:15 mark, you’ll see Sherwood sticking up for Le Saux, and he has a word with the ref just before Perez is sent off.

28 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

May be wrong but  I thought Kidd signed Ward and Blake.

Hodgson signed Blake, Kidd signed Ward.

[jim mk2]

Jack Walker hated ManU as much as the next man, and he saw a chance to antagonise Ferguson by snatching Kidd. Unfortunately, by doing so he also damaged Rovers because Kidd was never manager material. Rovers were badly managed by Walker after we won the title in 1995 - he failed to invest in players when we were the top dogs (Zidane and Dugarry anyone?) and a he made a hash of a load of appointments after Dalglish left (which he would not have done, if Walker had continued to spend). A championship winning club should never get relegated 4 years later, and it showed that Walker's BRFC was built on sand. 

[Inglorious basturk]

42 minutes ago, Amo said:

Good memory

https://youtu.be/fELb7VvjBRk

Skip to the 7:15 mark, you’ll see Sherwood sticking up for Le Saux, and he has a word with the ref just before Perez is sent off.

Hodgson signed Blake, Kidd signed Ward.

What a pair of twats le saux and sherwood were 

[LeftWinger]

11 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

May be wrong but  I thought Kidd signed Ward and Blake.

Other dross like £7m Davies, £6m Dahlin, £5m Dailly and Darren Peacock were Hodgson's brainchilds unless my memory is failing me.

Kidd did sign Ward - but Blake was a Hodgson signing I'm pretty sure. Both signed during the 98/99 season though.

Dahlin cost around £2.5m I'm sure. We also ended up in a legal battle with insurers over a back complaint I'm seem to remember.

[Amo]

I think Ward was our top scorer that season. Let that sink in ?

Edited May 14, 2020 by Amo

[LeftWinger]

12 hours ago, Hasta said:

If gossip was to be believed, we got relegated at home to Man United on a Wednesday night,  Our record signing Kevin Davies was up Tokyo Joe's till late on the Monday night before.

I'd forgotten all about that rumour.

The one I heard was that he was there with Oumar Konde - someone else I had forgotten about.

[MarkBRFC]

1 minute ago, Amo said:

I thought Ward was our top scorer that season. Let that sink in ?

Ward and Gallacher, with 5 each!

[LeftWinger]

5 minutes ago, Amo said:

I think Ward was our top scorer that season. Let that sink in ?

Just looked up the league goals that season from our strikers - what a sorry return:

Gallacher – 13 starts; 5 goals

Sutton – 17 starts; 3 goals

Davies – 9 starts; 1 goal

Blake – 9 starts; 3 goals

Ward – 17 starts; 5 goals

Jansen – 10 starts; 3 goals

[MarkBRFC]

15 hours ago, Stuart said:

Yes, I blame Tim Sherwood too.

Until Souness turned up Hodgson’s time was one of the most exciting times to be a Rovers fan. His start to the 1997 season was absolutely breathtaking.

This was the table after a 3-1 win at Highbury...

Yeah, that first 6 months or so we played some fantastic stuff, certainly some of the best "football" I have ever seen from Rovers.

On January 31st that season, we had lost 3 out of our first 24 games.

We then went on to lose 9 of our last 14 games, just scraping into 6th place and Europe on the last day.

After some really poor signings, Peacock, Dailly & Davidson all added to our defence, and Davies to our attack, we never really recovered going into the following season.

[LeftWinger]

We were even 3rd with 11 games to go the season before - then it all went a bit wrong.

We almost did a 'Reverse Leicester'

[oldjamfan1]

14 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

 

I was told at the time that Sherwood was particularly upset that he was on c 12k p.w. and a dolloper like Dahlin who was brought in for  £6m was suddenly on 20k. Fine if Dahlin is doing the business but not if he isn't, and especially more so when he's swinging the lead and never off the treatment table. Sherwood asked for a pay rise to bring him into something approaching parity. Uncle Jack said no as Sherwood had only signed a new contract 6-9 months previously. You can understand both their points of view but with the benefit of hindsight I think the most pragmatic decision would have been to give Sherwood a pay rise, avoid relegation and sell him the following summer.

A cursory glance at Dahlin's x-rays would confirm that he was not 'swinging the lead' but that aside if this is true then Sherwood is a twat of the highest order. The epitome of a rubber dinghy man.

I expect every player wearing our famous shirt to give 100%. At all times, not just when the sun is shining. The inference here is that our premier league winning captain downed tools just when the club really needed leadership.

[Dreyski]

As a poor student in Lancaster, I took advantage of a club special offer for the home games against perennial strugglers Coventry and Southampton, even convincing my housemates to join me. After two losses, we decided not to continue with the (final of the offer) Charlton game, which we went on to win...

A couple of extra facts from that season:

We managed to do the double over Villa

We spent £36 million pounds, but only brought in £11m from sales.

[LeftWinger]

41 minutes ago, Dreyski said:

We spent £36 million pounds, but only brought in £11m from sales.

I make it just over £40m spent ?

Corbett 525k

Davies 7.5m

Perez 3m

Peacock FREE

Daily 5.3m

Konde 0.5m

Blake 4.25m

Gillespie 2.35m

Ward 4.5m

Jansen 4.1m

McAteer 4m

McNamee 300k

O'Brien 300k

Carsley 3.4m

TOTAL: £40.025m

Some absolutely terrible signings there.

Jansen the only real success.

You could argue Blake, Gillespie, McAteer and Carsley had some kind of impact after we went down, but none of them 'successes' particularly.

1.625m spent on Corbett, Konde, McNamee and O'Brien - did they make any starts in league games?

£40m was a hell of a lot of money at the time.

To put it in perspective, Arsenal spent £12.5m in the same time period (albeit on some shockers other than Ljunberg at £3m)

Man United spent 27.75m - but got Stam for 10.75m and Yorke for 12.6m.

I think a picture of what went wrong is quickly emerging ?

[MarkBRFC]

3 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

You could argue Blake, Gillespie, McAteer and Carsley had some kind of impact after we went down, but none of them 'successes' particularly.

I think for just over £2m, Gillespie could be considered a success. Part of our promotion campaign, and a regular in the side that won the league cup.

Quote

1.625m spent on Corbett, Konde, McNamee and O'Brien - did they make any starts in league games?

Think they made 2 substitute appearances between them!

[LeftWinger]

8 minutes ago, MarkBRFC said:

I think for just over £2m, Gillespie could be considered a success. Part of our promotion campaign, and a regular in the side that won the league cup.

I actually liked Gillespie. A proper old school winger. On his day (unfortunately not consistently enough), he was one of the most exciting players in the country for me. Out and out pace and ability to beat his man. I just think off the field issues stopped him being a real star.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

14 hours ago, Inglorious basturk said:

What a pair of twats le saux and sherwood were 

I was never a Sherwood fan. A fair weather player.

[oldjamfan1]

1 minute ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I was never a Sherwood fan. A fair weather player.

I agree there Tyrone. It was interesting to note that he barely featured when he was first signed, Cowans was twice the player Sherwood ever was. 

[MarkBRFC]

12 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I was never a Sherwood fan. A fair weather player.

Strange one Sherwood really.

I thought he was a really good footballer, could switch the play well, good at linking defence to attack, and had an eye for goal running from deep.

I never got the impression from him though, despite being captain, that he was the sort of player that would get you on top In a game if things weren't going well, really good player when the team is on song and doing well, but I always thought he hid a bit when things weren't going according to plan.

Maybe I'm being unfair on him, but it was always the impression I got for some reason. 

Edited May 14, 2020 by MarkBRFC

[oldjamfan1]

6 minutes ago, MarkBRFC said:

Strange one Sherwood really.

I thought he was a really good footballer, could switch the play well, good at linking defence to attack, and had an eye for goal running from deep.

I never got the impression from him though, despite being captain, that he was the sort of player that would get you on top In a game if things weren't going well, really good player when the team is on song and doing well, but I always thought he hid a bit when things weren't going according to plan.

Maybe I'm being unfair on him, but it was always the impression I got for some reason. 

I reckon that's a pretty fair assessment Mark tbh

[Mattyblue]

In a team full of leaders, I always found it interesting that it was Sherwood that ended up captain.

Edited May 14, 2020 by Mattyblue

[oldjamfan1]

29 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

In a team full of leaders, I always found it interesting that it was Sherwood that ended up captain.

I think if you read big Hendry's article in FourFourTwo (someone has posted the link on this thread) he makes a thinly veiled swipe at Sherwood's captaincy.

[speeeeeeedie]

Regarding Sherwood.

Dalglish signed him from Norwich during the 91-92 promotion season and he didn't play much. I thought it was an odd signing if he wasn't going to play. Although Cowans was class. Yet come August 1992 he was in central midfield and by the start of the 1993 season he was captain.

He must have had something about him for Dalglish to do that with the likes of Moran, Hendry, and Shearer around.

I don't remember him being a fair weather player. He'd always put a shift in. I think that the acrimonious end to his Rovers career has clouded judgement.

I do remember his shooting prowess. He always had a go but usually smacked it miles over.

Wikipedia had this gem; During his time at the club Dalglish wanted to sign both Zinedine Zidane and Christophe Dugarry, who were playing in France for Bordeaux, but Rovers owner Jack Walker reportedly said to Dalglish: "Why do you want to sign Zidane when we have Tim Sherwood?"^[4]

[Dreyski]

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

I make it just over £40m spent ?

Yeah, I was going off wiki. On closer inspection it didn't include Perez. Odd one that. Champions' league quality (with Marseille and Galatasaray) but never settled. Think his wife or kid was seriously ill and still in France.

[Blue blood]

What didn't go wrong? 

For starters breaking up GAS - Gally and Sutton was a bad start. It only lasted a few games with Davis instead of Gally, before the swap came back in, but it set the tone for a hard season. A ton of injuries, especially to these two, also massively didn't help. I think losing Flitty for most of the campaign was a huge blow. 

If the season before petered out because the squad was too thin, the opposite was in effect this season. We had far too many players, which resulted in little consistency whatsoever. For example we had 6 strikers on the books, which back then was huge. I think manure only had 4 recognised strikers for example back then. We had a squad of 30+ which, even with a huge injury list, didn't really allow for much continuity or for us to have a proper style. Take the striker situation - Gally and Jansen play very differently to Sutton, who plays differently to Ward and Blake, who was different to Davis. Between the volume of personnel, and the injuries it was very hard to get a style of play, to have a plan A or B, or any kind of continuity or other marginal gains that comes from a settled squad. 

It also started badly as Hodgeson's two big signings didn't work out Perez and Davis. One didn't settle, the other wasn't mature enough to deal with the big price tag, and apply himself properly. I also wonder with Perez whether he was a bit too different from the traditional wingers of Ripley, Wilcox and Duff which gave us the success of before. There was a notable drop in quality at the back. Peacock and Dally weren't Hendry's quality, or necessary quality whatsoever. Another clanger was that Dailly, brought as a centre back spent the first half of the season rotating between different full back positions, which can't have helped him or the team. Sure, Kidd was hopeless, but Hodgeson gave him a heck of a bad start, with a ton of failed signings and breaking what was fixed rather than building upon it. The last minute signings of his reign, Blake, Marcolin and Konde, added nothing but expense. All in all, it was a poor situation to hand over. 

I can't remember at what point Sherwood left in the season but between his leaving and Flitty's injury, there was a huge loss of leadership. Throw in no Hendry in their too and that's a lot of leaders and maturity to lose from a squad.  

Kidd did pretty badly too. Whilst he had an eye for a player - most of his signings were solid - I do think it was too many, and tactically and his man management was pretty inept. The number of games we lost or didn't win was poor, and even now I can recall there seemed to be an it's ok we can fix it next week sort of atmosphere about the place. Certainly I recall that being the vibe of the interviews on Radio Rovers (which I miss, even if they do make certain posters on here seem unbiased) from that season. As for tactics they also seemed way off. That fateful Forest game I remember us whacking it long to Jansen and Gally, and wondering who on earth thought that was a good idea. If the long balls to Rhodes vs Millwall was a stupid idea in the FA Cup, this was its predecessor. Clueless. 

The more I think on it the more I do wonder about the injury situation. Really Flitty, Gally, McKinlay, Sutton and Flowers all missing for huge chunks. (Although with Flowers we got an upgrade in the performances of his lifetime from Filan, but still.) I find it hard to imagine that so many key players were out for so long. Did having another 25+ players to compete with or the club culture make a difference to how quickly we got them back? Was there thoughts, it's ok, we'll just buy our way out of trouble rather than improve what we had? 

Speaking of culture that seemed to be very different too. The 97-98 Rovers team were the original in your face Mark Hughes type Rovers. The defence, midfield and strike force was all up for a good battle. We weren't thugs on the pitch but the team could mix it. I remember in beating Arsenal away in 97-98 Gally was badly fouled and half the Rovers team came steaming into the confrontation. That up for the fight and togetherness just wasn't there the following year. Perhaps changes to personnel or change in management and culture,(or probably both) but that gritty togetherness and up for a scrap attitude was badly missing.  

Realistically there is no way we should have gone down. We had a ton of money, a good core team, a bunch of promising youngsters coming through - the best bunch in mu lifetime. We even managed to buy some good players too, well under Kidd anyway. So it seems like, even with unlucky injuries it should not have gone wrong. That suggests to me terrible man management, tactics and culture. 

Even looking back now it's hard to see it all as one full season such was the turnover in players. The season before was one of my favourites, and yet it seemed a lifetime ago at the end of the 99 relegation. It seems a huge transition from the hardy and spirited team of 97-98 into the promotion team of Souness only a couple of seasons later, which suggests far too much change was going on for Rovers good. 

Just a few thoughts from the perspective of a (then) 16 year old lad as to what went wrong.    

 

[Blue blood]

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

I make it just over £40m spent ?

Corbett 525k

Davies 7.5m

Perez 3m

Peacock FREE

Daily 5.3m

Konde 0.5m

Blake 4.25m

Gillespie 2.35m

Ward 4.5m

Jansen 4.1m

McAteer 4m

McNamee 300k

O'Brien 300k

Carsley 3.4m

TOTAL: £40.025m

Some absolutely terrible signings there.

Jansen the only real success.

You could argue Blake, Gillespie, McAteer and Carsley had some kind of impact after we went down, but none of them 'successes' particularly.

1.625m spent on Corbett, Konde, McNamee and O'Brien - did they make any starts in league games?

£40m was a hell of a lot of money at the time.

To put it in perspective, Arsenal spent £12.5m in the same time period (albeit on some shockers other than Ljunberg at £3m)

Man United spent 27.75m - but got Stam for 10.75m and Yorke for 12.6m.

I think a picture of what went wrong is quickly emerging ?

Bit harsh imo, well on the Kidd signings anyway. None of Roy's signings made any kind of impact. 

Contrast with Kidd's signings, and Gillespie, Carsley, Jansen all were a success at Prem level in the future and were good for us. McAteer overpriced but was ok as a player.   

FWIW I agree with your overall point. For that kind of money we should have been in the top six. Over paid and not enough quality for the money we spent. And that's before what you consider what it did to the team dynamics etc. 

Oh, and an additional point - buying these young players when we had Duff, Dunn, Johnson, Beattie (know we sold him) and a few others coming through. Seems an odd one that does.