Season Restart

[JHRover]

1 minute ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

 

No ST holders should be asking for refunds IMO. 

So Covid 19 results in redundancy or wage cut to minimum wage yet a father struggling to make ends meet shouldn't expect £100+ back for him and his sons tickets because? Money that would pay the rent or shopping bills

Meanwhile a director takes home £300k salary and we've another 12 months on Charlie Mulgrew's deal for him to sit around not playing because Mowbray doesn't like him any more or giving Ben Gladwin 6 months wage for nothing.

Money is there when the right people ask for it.

[arbitro]

Just now, OldEwoodBlue said:

We simply don't have the money.

I also got a Final Four but its now an investment in my club.

Not interested in an ifollow pass as got it free already on IPTV. However I also won't request a refund.

No ST holders should be asking for refunds IMO. 

If that's true then they should just say that. Personally I don't believe it. We have extremely wealthy owners and players who don't play on mega money not too mention Waggotts handsome salary. I would have forsaken the refund for the two season tickets I pay for until I saw the communication today. To play the sympathy card to try and keep people's money is a low blow. It's almost like they are forgetting that some fans have been on a reduced income for three months and in some cases list their jobs.

I will be writing to the club tomorrow asking for a refund.

[J*B]

2 minutes ago, arbitro said:

If that's true then they should just say that. Personally I don't believe it. We have extremely wealthy owners and players who don't play on mega money not too mention Waggotts handsome salary. I would have forsaken the refund for the two season tickets I pay for until I saw the communication today. To play the sympathy card to try and keep people's money is a low blow. It's almost like they are forgetting that some fans have been on a reduced income for three months and in some cases list their jobs.

I will be writing to the club tomorrow asking for a refund.

It’s not about the owners. It’s about the losses. We are at the FFP limit. We can not afford to lose the X amount a ticket refund would cost. Our finances are on a knife edge and they’re already losing significantly through loss of away tickets, hospitality and match day income which they have included in their revenue predictions for the year. The owners cannot just cover the bill.

All the senior management have agreed to wage deferrals and ultimately agreed to short term deductions if necessary. 

[rigger]

17 minutes ago, Cherry Blue said:

Surprised to see Smallwood had half an hour when he hasn't played all season. Positives for me are Holtby and Evans back and I'm pleased to see Mulgrew is still in there.

Yet still no Chapman. I am at a total loss why. Today was a perfect opportunity to see what he is like, with nothing for us to lose.

[Mattyblue]

Most fans will accept no refund for the here and now.

However, in the back of many fans’ mind will be the expectation that there will be some kind of discounted STs for next season (making the assumption that next season is normal-ish. When that doesn’t arrive (because knowing how Waggott has run the club, it won’t) then we we will see the lowest renewals since the nadir of the mid ‘80s and crowds of 4/5,000, many of those non-renewals lost for good at a club that has already seen thousands of fans disappear in recent times from its already limited fanbase.

End of the J*B, if we are in as dire straits as you outline, we are f*ucked either way as pursuing this plan of action will lead to a collapse in ticket sales and hospitality income that far outweighs a relatively small refund on STs that at least gives us a chance of keeping many more fans in the tent long term.

Edited June 11, 2020 by Mattyblue

[Paul]

9 hours ago, JoeH said:

I'd like to issue a public apology to @Paul. The clubs most recent statement IS a complete abandonment of the supporters, I'm completely disgusted by it and I think you most definitely now have every right to be angry. 

Amazed at the response they've given here.

Thank you Joe, this is a very gracious comment.

I have long known football in general and the club have no regard or concern for fans. The thing which has caused me to be so angry is the Covid-19 situation has confirmed this, confirmed something a bit of me hoped wasn't true.

Thanks again.

[K-Hod]

26 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Smallwood and Mulgrew got some game time today against Liverpool.

Very strange.

No wonder we got smashed....

[Paul]

Just one comment on next season and deferred refunds etc. My expectation is next season will be so short for ST holders in the ground that +/- £50 deferred refund against a new ST would mean the majority pay little more than another £30-50 - I don't have the inclination to work it out exactly.

We won't be back at Ewood before March 1st 2021.

[OldEwoodBlue]

17 minutes ago, J*B said:

It’s not about the owners. It’s about the losses. We are at the FFP limit. We can not afford to lose the X amount a ticket refund would cost. Our finances are on a knife edge and they’re already losing significantly through loss of away tickets, hospitality and match day income which they have included in their revenue predictions for the year. The owners cannot just cover the bill.

All the senior management have agreed to wage deferrals and ultimately agreed to short term deductions if necessary. 

Exactly.

It was on an FFP knife edge pre Virus.

Now.... promotion or bust.

[rigger]

Does anyone at Ewood read these statements before they are released? If they do then they really don’t understand the mentality of Rovers supporters .

[rigger]

5 minutes ago, Paul said:

Just one comment on next season and deferred refunds etc. My expectation is next season will be so short for ST holders in the ground that +/- £50 deferred refund against a new ST would mean the majority pay little more than another £30-50 - I don't have the inclination to work it out exactly.

We won't be back at Ewood before March 1st 2021.

Oh yes we will.

[Ewood Ace]

Every time that Waggott speaks he always gives the impression that he see's supporters as customers rather than fans.

[Stuart]

45 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Smallwood and Mulgrew got some game time today against Liverpool.

Very strange.

Wot!

They could jettison these two alone and refund supporters!

[Waggy76]

5 minutes ago, rigger said:

Oh yes we will.

I doubt that !

[chaddyrovers]

37 minutes ago, J*B said:

Remember when I was rubbished for saying Dack was due to leave in January? Suddenly there’s a 15m pound hole in the accounts. 

You said he was off to WBA didnt you? After Wigan game you posted it didnt you? 

37 minutes ago, J*B said:

Someone asked about iFollow. It’s usually pretty decent. The broadcast is poor - it’s nothing like a Sky production, but I’ve watched circa 15 games on iFollow without any problems. 

Yes I asked how good was the quality and could it cope with fans demands..

Is their replays and commentators? 

[chaddyrovers]

53 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Not very encouraging.

The "Liverpool are ahead of us in their preparation line" is a bit thin when they only start 3 days before us.

11 subs and Chapman still couldn't get on. What must he be thinking?

It's just a training exercise for me. 

[Stuart]

30 minutes ago, J*B said:

It’s not about the owners. It’s about the losses. We are at the FFP limit. We can not afford to lose the X amount a ticket refund would cost. Our finances are on a knife edge and they’re already losing significantly through loss of away tickets, hospitality and match day income which they have included in their revenue predictions for the year. The owners cannot just cover the bill.

All the senior management have agreed to wage deferrals and ultimately agreed to short term deductions if necessary. 

How would Venkys using their own money to refund supporters count towards FFP?

We are in the midst of a global epidemic! Normal rules seem to be very selectively applied.

[roversfan99]

33 minutes ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

The refund situation is not a case of Vs putting up the cash or not.

We are already in the FFP hole to £15 million before the virus came along.

Refunds to 9000 fans would just make it a whole lot worse. We already had to refund a bucket load of cash to corporate bookings for the Leeds game.

We are replacing the leavers with free transfers or academy players / making do with the left overs.

Waggott told me 17 teams in the Champ have the benefactor model and all are severely restricted by FFP.

Promotion is the ONLY way out of the mess.

Unless there is a temporary rule change, we are already lined up for FFP sanctions due to deferring wages.

Then it gets worse if the £15 million hole isn't plugged before the next accounts get published. 3rd year of the cycle and we are basically fucked if we dont get promoted THIS SEASON.

In response to yourself and @J*B

The main reason that the FFP reason doesnt wash is that any refunds could be deferred until we are allowed to sell season tickets again. Therefore the refunds would not touch the accounts or the cash flow until we are able to resume receiving income as normal.

There is clearly a large proportion of people, myself included who are content with the ifollow option so the refund would not come close to the 540k 9,000 season ticket holders could potentially claim at 60 quid a do.

Also you have to factor in that it wouldnt be as straight forward as a reduction of season ticket income based on people claiming refunds, although that is the short sighted approach Waggott is taking, very much in character. The club is damaging a lot of supporter goodwill and straining an already strained relationship and indeed people on this messageboard have said that if they arent refunded then they wont buy a season ticket next time so it could very well work out that by not allowing deferred refunds, that the club becomes worse off financially!

It certainly doesnt sit right either that the club is begging and guilt tripping its fanbase when for example the CEO that has given the go ahead on the statement today is a direct benefactor from the close to £300k increase in directors remuneration in the last account, and both that amount and also the weekly wage bill would be both individually higher than the likely amount claimed in deferred refund. Surely there is more room for manouevre within those 2 areas before they need to plead poverty with the fans.

[Stuart]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

It's just a training exercise for me. 

Why are we worrying about the fitness of Smallwood and Mulgrew? Very odd that they are involved at this stage.

[JHRover]

24 minutes ago, J*B said:

It’s not about the owners. It’s about the losses. We are at the FFP limit. We can not afford to lose the X amount a ticket refund would cost. Our finances are on a knife edge and they’re already losing significantly through loss of away tickets, hospitality and match day income which they have included in their revenue predictions for the year. The owners cannot just cover the bill.

All the senior management have agreed to wage deferrals and ultimately agreed to short term deductions if necessary. 

So due to FFP we screw our own loyal season ticket holders, in turn likely resulting in a significant drop in buyers next time and for years to come, in turn reducing revenue. 

See what i am getting at? Even if FFP has played a part in this decision - which isn't mentioned once in the statement (infact the club actually goes further and suggests the club's future and existence is at stake if people get refunds) - it is an extremely short sighted approach - which may well have no relevance in any event if FFP is suspended as surely clubs will demand - but even if it helps us comply by the skin of our teeth this year it damages the club longer term. 

How are Leeds going to go about refunding 20,000+ season ticket holders if we can't manage less than 8,000? How are Wigan doing it when at risk of the financial strife from relegation?

It's about how you see and treat your loyal fans. Once again, and not for the first time in recent seasons, loyal longstanding season ticket holders are taken for granted and are treated poorly by the club. The idea that we should be grateful for access to the remaining games online (even though Sky have done a deal with the EFL to do this and the clubs are receiving their full media income as a result) doesn't sit well with me.

As our season ticket base drops away further below 8000 down to 5000 or 6000 at least Waggott can collect his full salary and crack open the bubbly because we didn't break FFP rules and saved some cash on refunds. He's already seen one drop despite promotion after deciding to up the prices on our return to the Championship - good for the balance sheet but bad for bums on seats.

A wage deferral, whilst admirable, is not a reduction, cut or loss. The players will still be entitled to that cash, expect to receive it and almost certainly will unless the club is liquidated. The PFA would see to that. I've seen no mention at all of 'short term deductions' from anyone at Rovers - can you tell me where this was stated?

 

[Mattyblue]

15 minutes ago, Stuart said:

How would Venkys using their own money to refund supporters count towards FFP?

We are in the midst of a global epidemic! Normal rules seem to be very selectively applied.

Back in the days of yore, didn’t the owners personally pay for the coaches and refreshments for fans to go to Wolves for Survival Sunday?

Now £25/£30 a head for 3,000 is obviously a smaller figure than say, £45 back for 8,500 paid STs, but it is still chicken feed, and you know, an actual olive branch that could go a long way to repair relations, and remember, they are billionaires that ‘never refuse to sign a cheque’...

Edited June 11, 2020 by Mattyblue

[Cherry Blue]

20 minutes ago, Paul said:

………….……….We won't be back at Ewood before March 1st 2021.

 

13 minutes ago, rigger said:

Oh yes we will.

5 minutes ago, Waggy76 said:

I doubt that !

I doubt it too. Hungarian FA are allowing crowds back on condition that every second row remains empty with every forth seat occupied. Their infection rate per 1m population is a tenth of UKs.

 

[Stuart]

Just now, JHRover said:

So due to FFP we screw our own loyal season ticket holders, in turn likely resulting in a significant drop in buyers next time and for years to come, in turn reducing revenue. 

See what i am getting at? Even if FFP has played a part in this decision - which isn't mentioned once in the statement (infact the club actually goes further and suggests the club's future and existence is at stake if people get refunds) - it is an extremely short sighted approach - which may well have no relevance in any event if FFP is suspended as surely clubs will demand - but even if it helps us comply by the skin of our teeth this year it damages the club longer term. 

How are Leeds going to go about refunding 20,000+ season ticket holders if we can't manage less than 8,000? How are Wigan doing it when at risk of the financial strife from relegation?

It's about how you see and treat your loyal fans. Once again, and not for the first time in recent seasons, loyal longstanding season ticket holders are taken for granted and are treated poorly by the club. The idea that we should be grateful for access to the remaining games online (even though Sky have done a deal with the EFL to do this and the clubs are receiving their full media income as a result) doesn't sit well with me.

As our season ticket base drops away further below 8000 down to 5000 or 6000 at least Waggott can collect his full salary and crack open the bubbly because we didn't break FFP rules and saved some cash on refunds. He's already seen one drop despite promotion after deciding to up the prices on our return to the Championship - good for the balance sheet but bad for bums on seats.

A wage deferral, whilst admirable, is not a reduction, cut or loss. The players will still be entitled to that cash, expect to receive it and almost certainly will unless the club is liquidated. The PFA would see to that. I've seen no mention at all of 'short term deductions' from anyone at Rovers - can you tell me where this was stated?

Good post. The current regime don’t seem to recognise the core supporters, nor does it try to attract new buyers.

It behaves like it has a captive market who will just pay their money because of the badge on the shirt. Whether ST or walk-on. No real offers just smaller portions of the ST model. I’ve never known such a blasé attitude towards fans. “If they don’t come just blame them”. 

This might have been the case before Venkys arrived but 10 years of being ignored and treated like shit tends to take its toll on people.

[Stuart]

1 minute ago, Cherry Blue said:

 

I doubt it too. Hungarian FA are allowing crowds back on condition that every second row remains empty with every forth seat occupied. Their infection rate per 1m population is a tenth of UKs.

 

So half capacity and then 1/5th of that.

31,000 —> 15,500 —> 3,100 fans

Probably be fine for next season at this rate.

Just imagine the Twitter spin as we sell out every game. (At least you’d hope we’d sell out  )

[rigger]

4 minutes ago, Cherry Blue said:

 

I doubt it too. Hungarian FA are allowing crowds back on condition that every second row remains empty with every forth seat occupied. Their infection rate per 1m population is a tenth of UKs.

 

I think a more reliable barometer ,of when football in UK will open its gates, than Hungary. Will be the rate that other restrictions in UK are lifted.