Season Restart

[roversfan99]

"Today’s outcome ensures that the League and its Clubs remains as faithful as possible to the previously agreed Regulations and that there is consistency in the approach adopted across the EFL in all divisions if required."

I do particularly enjoy this quote by Rick Parry. The consistency of relegating teams having played all games and promoting teams based on an incomplete season and a formula.

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Absolutely ridicilous. Potentially Championship clubs relegated after a full season and replaced by teams who havent. And needlessly shuffling teams between Leagues 1 and 2, neither of which are finished!

If you are just playing the top 2 leagues, stop relegation from the Championship down.

If you cant finish the leagues then you cant promote and relegate teams. If they genuinely think they have any integrity then they can shove their PPG formulaes up their arse.

The league 1 clubs voted for what they want. The majority of league 1 clubs voted the reasons they did. Yes they are losing and winners for this. I don't know if you saw Fleetwood owner on the football show on Sky Sports this morning who was talking about how he would vote and why. Plus he discuss his club's budgets for next season and he said he would be cutting the budget for next season by 20 to the 30 percent. 

Yes its not be overall fair but the clubs made a choice now by a democracy vote. I would imagine that Sunderland and Peterborough aren't happy with the current situation or the outcome of the vote. 

 

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

The league 1 clubs voted for what they want. The majority of league 1 clubs voted the reasons they did. Yes they are losing and winners for this. I don't know if you saw Fleetwood owner on the football show on Sky Sports this morning who was talking about how he would vote and why. Plus he discuss his club's budgets for next season and he said he would be cutting the budget for next season by 20 to the 30 percent. 

Yes its not be overall fair but the clubs made a choice now by a democracy vote. I would imagine that Sunderland and Peterborough aren't happy with the current situation or the outcome of the vote. 

 

There are an equal number of winners and losers regardless. And the fact that it is as the result of a democratic vote of teams all of whom have various conflicts of interests does not make it righteous.

It should never have been an option to vote on. It should have been a case of can we finish the season, no? Well the season is not completed, therefore no promotions and relegations have been earnt.

[chaddyrovers]

11 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

There are an equal number of winners and losers regardless. And the fact that it is as the result of a democratic vote of teams all of whom have various conflicts of interests does not make it righteous.

It should never have been an option to vote on. It should have been a case of can we finish the season, no? Well the season is not completed, therefore no promotions and relegations have been earnt.

Clubs made different proposals like Peterborough or Tranmere. Most clubs didnt vote to play. 18 clubs vote to finish the season on PPG system. Is it ideal? No. But clubs didnt want to unfurlough their players due to costs issues. Which I can understand. 

4 teams in playoffs. Hope Fleetwood or Wycombe come up tbh through the playoffs. 

[roversfan99]

19 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Clubs made different proposals like Peterborough or Tranmere. Most clubs didnt vote to play. 18 clubs vote to finish the season on PPG system. Is it ideal? No. But clubs didnt want to unfurlough their players due to costs issues. Which I can understand. 

4 teams in playoffs. Hope Fleetwood or Wycombe come up tbh through the playoffs. 

Youve again not addressed my point, just reiterated the fact that it was voted on which I stated was not necessarily indicative of the best way. Votes between teams involved in the situation is not final proof that PPG promotions and relegations are the correct way forward.

Unfurloughing players is irrelevant to the discussion at hand because I have also accepted that these divisions cannot finish. I am not saying that they should finish it because its impossible, financially and logistically.

My whole argument is against the fairness of extrapolating the results from an incomplete season to determine promotions and relegations, especially into the Championsip which WILL be finished. Its unfair, as far as im concerned, if the season isnt finished, if a team hasnt fully earnt promotion or fully earnt relegation, then it shouldnt happen. Theres no need to promote and relegate teams in incomplete seasons.

Forgot the FA's point of view, or indeed the possibility of a democratic vote between teams involved. From a totally neutral viewpoint, what would in your opinion have been the best conclusion from the 2 possibilities, cancel the season or promote and relegate based on formulaes?

[RevidgeBlue]

9 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Youve again not addressed my point, just reiterated the fact that it was voted on which I stated was not necessarily indicative of the best way. Votes between teams involved in the situation is not final proof that PPG promotions and relegations are the correct way forward.

Unfurloughing players is irrelevant to the discussion at hand because I have also accepted that these divisions cannot finish. I am not saying that they should finish it because its impossible, financially and logistically.

My whole argument is against the fairness of extrapolating the results from an incomplete season to determine promotions and relegations, especially into the Championsip which WILL be finished. Its unfair, as far as im concerned, if the season isnt finished, if a team hasnt fully earnt promotion or fully earnt relegation, then it shouldnt happen. Theres no need to promote and relegate teams in incomplete seasons.

Forgot the FA's point of view, or indeed the possibility of a democratic vote between teams involved. From a totally neutral viewpoint, what would in your opinion have been the best conclusion from the 2 possibilities, cancel the season or promote and relegate based on formulaes?

It's even unfairer to scrap the season meaning that team's efforts are unrewarded if they've done well or they've got away with it if they've tanked.

The fairest solution is for ANY League that can afford to do so to play the League out in full. If any other Leagues can't afford to do so that's a mutually exclusive issue and needs must unfortunately. 

Just say for the sake of argument that Norwich played 38 games and finished in the bottom 3 and the Championship can't finish for some reason and final positions there  have to be allocated on a PPG basis.  To me it's still a lot fairer  that Norwich  and the other bottom 2 still go down and the teams that finished in the top 3 places on a PPG basis go up from the Chamionship to replace them than they get away with it.

[rigger]

Fair or not, it doesn’t matter. I for one am glad a decision has been made. Now let’s get on with it.

[roversfan99]

12 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

It's even unfairer to scrap the season meaning that team's efforts are unrewarded if they've done well or they've got away with it if they've tanked.

The fairest solution is for ANY League that can afford to do so to play the League out in full. If any other Leagues can't afford to do so that's a mutually exclusive issue and needs must unfortunately. 

Just say for the sake of argument that Norwich played 38 games and finished in the bottom 3 and the Championship can't finish for some reason and final positions there  have to be allocated on a PPG basis.  To me it's still a lot fairer  that Norwich  and the other bottom 2 still go down and the teams that finished in the top 3 places on a PPG basis go up from the Chamionship to replace them than they get away with it.

Of course the only truly fair way is to complete the season and that is not an option.

Its unfortunate that teams that have put in the work of much of the season but the season has not been completed for reasons out of our hands. It goes without saying that things could and would change before the season and it is inherently flawed to extrapolate and formulate results of an incomplete season against teams of varying difficulties (some teams will have remaining games easier than others etc) to then promote and relegate teams.

The season has not been completed therefore whilst teams have all put in lots of work, none have yet fully EARNT their promotions or relegations.

Youve used an extreme example, so could I. Wycombe have a game in hand which they could have lost, and they were outside the play offs. Theyve shot up 4 places on the assumption that they would pick up points in that game. Conversely if they had won theyd have been level with 2nd. So tight.

[neophox]

Our squad looks very strong for the run in. Everyone fit except Dack who is running... 

 

The youngsters hungry and knocks on the door... will be hard for Mowbray to pick a team...

[RevidgeBlue]

4 minutes ago, neophox said:

Our squad looks very strong for the run in. Everyone fit except Dack who is running... 

 

The youngsters hungry and knocks on the door... will be hard for Mowbray to pick a team...

Fitness will be absolutely key for this run in, any side that could somehow find a way to come back in physically and mentally sharper than everyone else could absolutely breeze through the last few games.

Not holding my breath based  on what I've seen of us in the past but you never know.

[Hasta]

8 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

Promotion and relegation will happen in EFL this season whether they carry on or not

That's the problem. The EFL have decided promotion and relegation should happen regardless. That should have been left to the clubs.

 

The options to the clubs vote on should have been

- Void the season with no promotion or relegation

- Void the season and promote / relegate on a PPG basis.

- Finish the season

 

I imagine that would have been a better indicator of what the lower league clubs thought was fair, and wouldn't have been a landslide.

 

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by Hasta

[chaddyrovers]

46 minutes ago, Hasta said:

That's the problem. The EFL have decided promotion and relegation should happen regardless. That should have been left to the clubs.

 

The options to the clubs vote on should have been

- Void the season with no promotion or relegation

- Void the season and promote / relegate on a PPG basis.

- Finish the season

 

I imagine that would have been a better indicator of what the lower league clubs thought was fair, and wouldn't have been a landslide.

 

 

From Today EFL Statement 

Following a vote on each by all 71 Clubs, it was overwhelmingly agreed (by a majority of all Clubs and a majority in the Championship) to adopt the EFL Board’s proposal into EFL Regulations, which now means the following applies in the event a division curtails its 2019/20 season or it is ended by any other means.

1. Final divisional placings will be determined on unweighted points per game (if required).
2. Promotion and relegation should be retained.
3. Play-Offs will be played in all circumstances but will not be extended (beyond four teams). 

So the clubs have a vote and decided the proposal from EFL and rejected the proposals from Ipswich, Lincoln, Stevenage, Barnsley and Tranmere. 

Then clubs in league 1 and 2 had vote on the EFL proposals. And they voted on them and ended the season on PPG  

[Stuart]

4 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

From Today EFL Statement 

Following a vote on each by all 71 Clubs, it was overwhelmingly agreed (by a majority of all Clubs and a majority in the Championship) to adopt the EFL Board’s proposal into EFL Regulations, which now means the following applies in the event a division curtails its 2019/20 season or it is ended by any other means.

1. Final divisional placings will be determined on unweighted points per game (if required).
2. Promotion and relegation should be retained.
3. Play-Offs will be played in all circumstances but will not be extended (beyond four teams). 

So the clubs have a vote and decided the proposal from EFL and rejected the proposals from Ipswich, Lincoln, Stevenage, Barnsley and Tranmere. 

Then clubs in league 1 and 2 had vote on the EFL proposals. And they voted on them and ended the season on PPG  

A majority vote in this scenario is completely unjust. There would only ever be a minority of clubs impacted negatively so any motion would always carry at their expense. The ‘football family’ is an oxymoron.

No finish to the season should have meant null and void. It’s the only fair and equitable outcome.

Nobody earned promotion, regardless of how well they had done to that point or how much they “earned” or “deserved” it - according to some. Nobody had been relegated - notwithstanding Bolton’s certainty for the drop.

A vote simply allowed the EFL to abdicate any responsibility and enable them to blame clubs. Who are clubs going to sue for losses? It’s a cop out, an understandable one perhaps but still a cop out.

It is what it is now though, and we move on but the EFL should never again utter the now derisory phrase: integrity of the game. There is none. A little like ‘fit and proper owners’. Pah!

 

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Youve again not addressed my point, just reiterated the fact that it was voted on which I stated was not necessarily indicative of the best way. Votes between teams involved in the situation is not final proof that PPG promotions and relegations are the correct way forward.

Unfurloughing players is irrelevant to the discussion at hand because I have also accepted that these divisions cannot finish. I am not saying that they should finish it because its impossible, financially and logistically.

My whole argument is against the fairness of extrapolating the results from an incomplete season to determine promotions and relegations, especially into the Championsip which WILL be finished. Its unfair, as far as im concerned, if the season isnt finished, if a team hasnt fully earnt promotion or fully earnt relegation, then it shouldnt happen. Theres no need to promote and relegate teams in incomplete seasons.

Forgot the FA's point of view, or indeed the possibility of a democratic vote between teams involved. From a totally neutral viewpoint, what would in your opinion have been the best conclusion from the 2 possibilities, cancel the season or promote and relegate based on formulaes?

Its not the FA view who had a say on the EFL promotion and relegation here so you are wrong on this. 

The clubs from league 1 and 2 had a vote and they vote they will the did. You seem to not want to accept what they clubs owners decide democratically 

is it fair that Swindon or Crewe don't go up after playing so well all season and being in the top 2 before this Coronavirus pandemic hot the country that is out of their control? it is fair that they don't go up due to other teams in that league are unwilling to unfurlough their players to due cost reasons and no incentive to return. 

 

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

 

Youve used an extreme example, so could I. Wycombe have a game in hand which they could have lost, and they were outside the play offs. Theyve shot up 4 places on the assumption that they would pick up points in that game. Conversely if they had won theyd have been level with 2nd. So tight.

You have used Wycombe as an example but Wycombe have spent the most weeks in the top 2 this season of any club in the league

[roversfan99]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Its not the FA view who had a say on the EFL promotion and relegation here so you are wrong on this. 

The clubs from league 1 and 2 had a vote and they vote they will the did. You seem to not want to accept what they clubs owners decide democratically 

is it fair that Swindon or Crewe don't go up after playing so well all season and being in the top 2 before this Coronavirus pandemic hot the country that is out of their control? it is fair that they don't go up due to other teams in that league are unwilling to unfurlough their players to due cost reasons and no incentive to return. 

 

You have used Wycombe as an example but Wycombe have spent the most weeks in the top 2 this season of any club in the league

Whatever, a different governing body then. 

Swindon and Crewe hadnt earnt promotion. I am not saying that the season should finish, I have repeatedly said that i know it cannot be finished so stop coming back to me with stuff about unfurloughing as its irrelevant. Ergo the 2 choices are to extrapolate and formulate to assume that the teams would have all carried on at the exact same pace in terms of picking up points which they wouldnt. Of course its unfortunate that teams have put in work but if it cant be completed it cant be completed.

The fact that the teams voted DOES NOT make it 100% foolproof. Firstly these teams all have conflicts of interest, different league positions etc. I am criticising that they have even been given the option to choose PPG. Surely the teams at risk of relegation from the Championship should also get a say considering they will be relegated on merit and replaced by teams in a good position but far from achieving promotion. @Hasta mentions that they seemingly werent given the option to null and void and that is right but I would go one step forward and say the PPG option shouldnt have been there. Allowing a vote makes the EFL shirk responsibility rather than being a positive move, they should have evaluated whether the season can be finished, and upon realising it couldnt, called it a bad job and null and voided the season. Its not ideal but its better than the flawed shite as a result of passing the buck that has resulted.

If a few weeks earlier this had happened then Wycombe might have gone up as you say so it just shows how crazy it is to essentially use the league table as it stands well before its supposed conclusion.

The frustration is you arent driven by and dont clearly state your own opinion, you act as essentially an EFL spokesperson and dont directly address the points made to you which is ironically what the EFL would do. 

 

[Prelude]

[roversfan99]

Further proof of how flawed PPG is! And how you cannot realistically extrapolate the current rate of points. Millwall are 2 points off 6th place Preston but a much more favourable run in. They would have been penalised for the order in which their fixtures were created.

It would be really interesting to see the League 1 and 2 equivalents.

[chaddyrovers]

4 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Whatever, a different governing body then. 

Swindon and Crewe hadnt earnt promotion. I am not saying that the season should finish, I have repeatedly said that i know it cannot be finished so stop coming back to me with stuff about unfurloughing as its irrelevant. Ergo the 2 choices are to extrapolate and formulate to assume that the teams would have all carried on at the exact same pace in terms of picking up points which they wouldnt. Of course its unfortunate that teams have put in work but if it cant be completed it cant be completed.

The fact that the teams voted DOES NOT make it 100% foolproof. Firstly these teams all have conflicts of interest, different league positions etc. I am criticising that they have even been given the option to choose PPG. Surely the teams at risk of relegation from the Championship should also get a say considering they will be relegated on merit and replaced by teams in a good position but far from achieving promotion. @Hasta mentions that they seemingly werent given the option to null and void and that is right but I would go one step forward and say the PPG option shouldnt have been there. Allowing a vote makes the EFL shirk responsibility rather than being a positive move, they should have evaluated whether the season can be finished, and upon realising it couldnt, called it a bad job and null and voided the season. Its not ideal but its better than the flawed shite as a result of passing the buck that has resulted.

If a few weeks earlier this had happened then Wycombe might have gone up as you say so it just shows how crazy it is to essentially use the league table as it stands well before its supposed conclusion.

The frustration is you arent driven by and dont clearly state your own opinion, you act as essentially an EFL spokesperson and dont directly address the points made to you which is ironically what the EFL would do. 

 

The teams have had a democratic vote and choose the way they did to end the season. Instead of saying it should be null and void still. Teams have voted the way they have. Are you going to accept that teams have a democratic vote on how to finish the season and they chose to end the season on PPG system? 

The Championship teams had a vote along with teams from league 1 and 2 clubs today and chose the proposal from the EFL. They could have chose other proposals on the table from the 5 teams who put them forward. But they didn't. 

I always wanted to finish the season when it was safe enough to do so. But some clubs in league 1 and 2 didn't want to restart the season when they have nothing to play cos they are comfortable mid table and have furlough the players until their contracts run out or coming back when we know when pre season will start next season so costs are well down. 

[roversfan99]

5 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

The teams have had a democratic vote and choose the way they did to end the season. Instead of saying it should be null and void still. Teams have voted the way they have. Are you going to accept that teams have a democratic vote on how to finish the season and they chose to end the season on PPG system? 

The Championship teams had a vote along with teams from league 1 and 2 clubs today and chose the proposal from the EFL. They could have chose other proposals on the table from the 5 teams who put them forward. But they didn't. 

I always wanted to finish the season when it was safe enough to do so. But some clubs in league 1 and 2 didn't want to restart the season when they have nothing to play cos they are comfortable mid table and have furlough the players until their contracts run out or coming back when we know when pre season will start next season so costs are well down. 

I have stated that voting doesnt automatically make the outcome correct, fair or agreeable and youve repeatedly ignored the points I am making in order to repeat totally irrelevant points that I have in many cases accepted so lets leave it there.

[CD_93]

Michael O’Neill has tested positive. He found out after Stoke arrived at Carrington ahead of a practice match against United.

This could be a messy few weeks,

Edited June 9, 2020 by CD_93

[chaddyrovers]

37 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I have stated that voting doesnt automatically make the outcome correct, fair or agreeable and youve repeatedly ignored the points I am making in order to repeat totally irrelevant points that I have in many cases accepted so lets leave it there.

The outcome has been decided by the EFL clubs having a vote on how to end the season. Yes it is far from ideal just like null and voiding the season is unfair to the clubs who would have gone up without this coronavirus pandemic hitting the country. I wonder if you would have the same opinion had Rovers been top of the league and 12 points clear of 3rd place with 9 games to go you would have suggest null and avoiding the season then? I bet not

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by chaddyrovers

[roversfan99]

2 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

The outcome has been decided by the EFL clubs having a vote on how to end the season. Yes it is far from ideal just like null and voiding the season is unfair to the clubs who would have gone up without this coronavirus pandemic hitting the country. I wonder if you would have the same opinion had Rovers been top of the league and 12 points clear of 3rd place with 9 games to go you would have suggest null and avoiding the season then? I bet not

You say my points are irrelevant cos you don't agree with the

You keep using the fact that they have voted as final proof that the right thing has been done. I keep saying that the vote (your scenario only provides an example of how clubs will vote dependant on how they will be affected) is IMO passing the buck and not fair, because teams have natural biases and I disagree with the options permitted, one of which is inherently flawed. A valid comeback to that argument is not "but they have voted." You are just repeating what has happened which is what I am contesting.

Your scenario about Rovers only emphasises the fact that teams are voting from varying positions of bias. I would like to think that I can be neutral about Rovers, for example when you suggest that every refereeing decision should have gone our way I try and be fair. But I may well want PPG in that scenario naturally but that doesnt make it right or fair, quite the opposite. Id be biased.

You keep talking about the financial inability of teams in Leagues 1 and 2 to complete the season but thats not something ive ever pushed for, I know its not possible.

Its obvious that teams hard work will be wasted but that is not reason to assume and extrapolate to give teams rewards and punishments (promotion and relegation) that they have not yet earnt. Its just an unfortunate reprocussion of the situation.

[chaddyrovers]

We arent going to agree so I just leave it there now @roversfan99. 

 

[roversfan99]

1 minute ago, chaddyrovers said:

We arent going to agree so I just leave it there now @roversfan99. 

 

I agree! Haha

[JPTSwindon]

So no red button on Sky for any of the matches?