Leeds at Home 4.7.20

[Atko's Engine]

41 minutes ago, DaveyB said:

I know it's disappointing and frustrating to lose three quick games on the bounce, but I do think that some of the reaction has been a bit OTT. Personally I think that we've been more unlucky than abject

The game at Wigan - wasn't a great performance by any stretch and tbh it didn't ever look like we were going to do enough to win, but at the same time, until Walton dropped a ricket, it didn't ever look to be a game that we were in danger of losing either.

The game at Barnsley - the result doesn't look great, but first half we had over 70% possession, were in complete control of the game and had two or three fairly clear cut chances to score. Had we taken one of those then I think we would have gone on to win fairly comfortably.
Having gone behind, Mowbray tried to change things up and within 7 minutes we had Brereton sent off - and whilst I can see why it was given as a red, it was a fairly soft one and 8 or 9 times out 10 that is a yellow at most - and the sending off then affects our ability to get back into the game, especially as it comes so soon after making 4 subs and changing the formation.

The game yesterday - lots of teams will lose to Leeds, and tbh I can't imagine many of us saw us getting 3 points here, but that said we did ok - especially in the first half. Again we created 2 or 3 clear cut chances, plus had a goal ruled out for less contact on their defender than there was on Travis for their first. Had we managed to get back to 1-1 or even to get our noses in front then the second half may have been a different game.

Like I say it's disappointing/annoying to have lost all 3 games, but I think we were unlucky to lose at least 2 of those and there's a danger of letting the results colour our view of the performances.

 

And on Mowbray generally - obviously he's made some mistakes. The signings of Gallagher and Brereton look worse by the week, and Walton - there's glimpses of a player in there - he had a decent spell of games from mid-Jan to the start of the lockdown, but his form at the beginning of the season and especially since the restart has been atrocious - so that has to be another black mark against the manager.
However, when you consider the run of injuries we've had this season, I think he's done a decent enough job to have us up with a chance of the playoffs for so long. For instance, against Barnsley we were missing 4 left backs, our main centre-half, 2 centre-mids, and our best/most creative/most prolific player - and like I said we still dominated the game, in the first half at least.
(To put that into perspective, if you took Liverpool - arguably the best team in the world atm - and this afternoon against Villa took away Robertson, Milner + the next two in line for LB, Van Dijk, Henderson & Fabinho plus one of either Mane or Salah - I would probably back them still to win, but it would be much more in the balance than with those players - many on here don't seem to be able accept that missing so many means that it's more likely that we will struggle against teams like Barnsley.)

And, I know that's just one game, but we've been missing Cunningham, Evans and Dack for a large chunk of the season. Dack in particular, at the time when he got injured, was such a blow. Our team was built around him, almost everything went through him and he got injured just at the start of a run of games in quick succession, which didn't give us chance to adjust properly and meant we had a poor run in those games around Christmas. When we finally did have time to adjust properly we got back to playing well and went on a good run, which got us within touching distance of the playoffs.
And again, for those who don't see the importance of losing just 1 or 2 key men from your team, I have a City supporting mate who is adamant that the reason the gap between them and Liverpool is so big this season is down to Laporte being injured for much of the season. If a team that has spent half a Billion £s on players can be so affected by the loss of just one player, then surely we can accept that losing our best player might just affect Rovers a little bit.

 

I realise that I'm shouting into the void somewhat on here - as many of you made up your minds on Mowbray a long time ago. But for me, I can see progression each season and so I think that he has earned next season to see if we can make a serious, sustained push for the playoffs. If not, then I may well come round to the group mentality on here and call for him to be replaced.

I think this is a really well reasoned post and offers a great counter argument to the (also well-reasoned, mostly) criticisms about lots of Mowbray's transfer activities, team selections & tactical decisions, and i agree with pretty much all of it.

Teams that succeed are lucky as well as skillful, most successful teams will tell you that. With injuries we've certainly been unlucky & they've served to highlight deficiencies elsewhere, which would have been less obvious otherwise. 

As ever, the truth probably lies somewhere in between. Re transfers he's failed spectacularly so far re Gallagher & Brereton, yet done wonderfully with Dack & Armstrong. He's made some strange team selections, but whilst some failed others have come up trumps.

He's a steady pair of hands, not great but not rubbish. With a bit more conviction and / or luck, we'd be much better off. 

Would we be better off without him? Maybe, but many alternatives that others have touted as better than Mowbray have struggled too when managing at clubs that are far better run than ours. Others have gambled on young management potential, but also struggled.

There's no obvious, likely-to-succeed choice for next season. The option that would be most economical & probably garner most support from the fans on both sides would be for TM to take a DoF role & for Johnson to take the helm as manager, a best of both worlds approach. Does Johnson's recently-obtained role with NI scupper or assist in that? I don't know, but I think that could succeed and I would support it enthusiastically.

Otherwise, think he's just about done enough to start next season. Money is low, this close season is short and alternative options are thin on the ground, but there's no doubting he has a big job on his hands close season and it's a close call with him in last chance saloon.

 

[Mattyblue]

‘Results colouring the view of the performances’, well until we get points for 70% possession garnered by passing the ball around our own half then that’s kind of what fans will do...

[WacoRover]

Agreed, Davey & Atko. Mowbray does not deserve much of the spiteful comments directed his way. But I do agree somewhat on his transfers, player development and some of his tactics.

We’re still a better club than a year ago. Injuries hit us hard, and mowbray squared the team away each time. He deserves some consideration for that. 

Until We have nothing to play for- save relegation- and the club clearly identities a better, more suited candidate, we don’t need manager-go-round again. It may not be popular here, but we could do a lot worse.

[DaveyB]

6 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

‘Results colouring the view of the performances’, well until we get points for 70% possession garnered by passing the ball around our own half then that’s kind of what fans will do...

Indeed. And don’t get me wrong, I’m as p***ed off as anyone when we lose - ask my wife, she’ll tell you I was like a bear with a sore head on Tuesday and again last night. 
 

But, that doesn’t mean that the performances were abject, or spineless or whatever. Just because we lose doesn’t mean that automatically we’ve played crap - just as winning doesn’t mean that we were brilliant (a point that many on here are usually very quick to point out!)

[Mattyblue]

If you think we put in decent performances at Barnsley and Wigan then you’ve lower standards than me..

Edited July 5, 2020 by Mattyblue

[DaveyB]

As I’ve said I think that the first half at Barnsley was good and had we taken one of our chances we would probably have gone on to win 3 or 4 nil - but ultimately goals change games, we didn’t take our chances, they did. That’s the way it goes, and it’s annoying, frustrating etc, but equally doesn’t completely negate the positive parts of the performance. 
 

The performance at Wigan wasn’t good - but also wasn’t abject. It looked like it had 0-0 written all over it from about 10 mins in - and would have been if it weren’t for Walton (whose individual performances since the restart could legitimately be labelled abject imo)

[AllRoverAsia]

Is this Facebook in disguise?

Talk about Wood and Trees. And Cookoos

Edited July 5, 2020 by AllRoverAsia

[philipl]

In past seasons, we have usually given table toppers a real fright at Ewood even if we might have eventually lost.

Yesterday, we were suppine.

[philipl]

16 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

If you think we put in decent performances at Barnsley and Wigan then you’ve lower standards than me..

Brentford and Stoke put in decent performances against Wigan and Barnsley.

[Atko's Engine]

ARA, folk are entitled to an opposing view to the majority and to express it, whether or not you agree.   There's nothing in the few posts above that doesn't stand up to reason, albeit it is a minority view.

Not only that, DaveyB, Waco & myself have done so whilst recognising the merits of the arguments against Mowbray.

All we're saying is there's always 2 sides to the argument. It's hardly ever black & white, things are always more nuanced than that. 

 

[Atko's Engine]

28 minutes ago, philipl said:

Brentford and Stoke put in decent performances against Wigan and Barnsley.

Brentford are a better side than us granted, but they came up against a club that fell on its knees just 2 days pre kick off with the Administration debacle. When we played them, they were a top-of-the-form table team that until then was unbeaten in 7 with 5 clean sheets in a row.

As for Stoke, yes they put Barnsley away very well yesterday. But 4 days earlier they got rinsed by Wigan more so than we did, and I don't think anyone would swap our position for Stoke's, right?! 

Like I said above, nothing in this debate is black & white.

[roversfan99]

Another very poor performance against a far superior team in which some of the same criticisms are again evident.

Should have scored early on and looked better with Holtby as a 10 and Armstrong a 9. Then they just went on to totally dominate and out class us.

Gallaghers miss summed him up, a pathetic way to spend 5m and high wages. Never did I expect him to score. Rothwell achieved absolutely nothing yet again. Armstrong wonder goals are the only goal threat we have. And Walton is a dismal signing, so many mistakes. And Johnson is another really poor signing, he can barely run.

Dont want to see Samuel, Graham etc from now on. Nothing can be gained. Some regular starts for Rankin Costello, Chapman, Davenport, Buckley and mayve even Thompson.

Mowbray has to be let go now. As it is, he is safe, the owners dont care and the budgets to plan for next year havent been considered.

 

[WacoRover]

I am not excusing any of our last three performances, from a managerial or player standpoint. But where were the positive comments this season, when Rovers took 21 of 30 points (Nov. 2-Dec 26) and 20 of 36 (Jan. 11-June 20)?

We had decent chances to score in all three; TM cannot be blamed when Samuel and SG whiffed on great opportunities. Going forward, those are good reasons not to play them. But don’t sack mowbray now. That makes no sense with 5 games, and it wouldn’t be fair to the new gaffer, either. 

 

Edited July 5, 2020 by WacoRover

[Leonard Venkhater]

3 hours ago, DaveyB said:

I know it's disappointing and frustrating to lose three quick games on the bounce, but I do think that some of the reaction has been a bit OTT. Personally I think that we've been more unlucky than abject

The game at Wigan - wasn't a great performance by any stretch and tbh it didn't ever look like we were going to do enough to win, but at the same time, until Walton dropped a ricket, it didn't ever look to be a game that we were in danger of losing either.

The game at Barnsley - the result doesn't look great, but first half we had over 70% possession, were in complete control of the game and had two or three fairly clear cut chances to score. Had we taken one of those then I think we would have gone on to win fairly comfortably.
Having gone behind, Mowbray tried to change things up and within 7 minutes we had Brereton sent off - and whilst I can see why it was given as a red, it was a fairly soft one and 8 or 9 times out 10 that is a yellow at most - and the sending off then affects our ability to get back into the game, especially as it comes so soon after making 4 subs and changing the formation.

The game yesterday - lots of teams will lose to Leeds, and tbh I can't imagine many of us saw us getting 3 points here, but that said we did ok - especially in the first half. Again we created 2 or 3 clear cut chances, plus had a goal ruled out for less contact on their defender than there was on Travis for their first. Had we managed to get back to 1-1 or even to get our noses in front then the second half may have been a different game.

Like I say it's disappointing/annoying to have lost all 3 games, but I think we were unlucky to lose at least 2 of those and there's a danger of letting the results colour our view of the performances.

 

And on Mowbray generally - obviously he's made some mistakes. The signings of Gallagher and Brereton look worse by the week, and Walton - there's glimpses of a player in there - he had a decent spell of games from mid-Jan to the start of the lockdown, but his form at the beginning of the season and especially since the restart has been atrocious - so that has to be another black mark against the manager.
However, when you consider the run of injuries we've had this season, I think he's done a decent enough job to have us up with a chance of the playoffs for so long. For instance, against Barnsley we were missing 4 left backs, our main centre-half, 2 centre-mids, and our best/most creative/most prolific player - and like I said we still dominated the game, in the first half at least.
(To put that into perspective, if you took Liverpool - arguably the best team in the world atm - and this afternoon against Villa took away Robertson, Milner + the next two in line for LB, Van Dijk, Henderson & Fabinho plus one of either Mane or Salah - I would probably back them still to win, but it would be much more in the balance than with those players - many on here don't seem to be able accept that missing so many means that it's more likely that we will struggle against teams like Barnsley.)

And, I know that's just one game, but we've been missing Cunningham, Evans and Dack for a large chunk of the season. Dack in particular, at the time when he got injured, was such a blow. Our team was built around him, almost everything went through him and he got injured just at the start of a run of games in quick succession, which didn't give us chance to adjust properly and meant we had a poor run in those games around Christmas. When we finally did have time to adjust properly we got back to playing well and went on a good run, which got us within touching distance of the playoffs.
And again, for those who don't see the importance of losing just 1 or 2 key men from your team, I have a City supporting mate who is adamant that the reason the gap between them and Liverpool is so big this season is down to Laporte being injured for much of the season. If a team that has spent half a Billion £s on players can be so affected by the loss of just one player, then surely we can accept that losing our best player might just affect Rovers a little bit.

 

I realise that I'm shouting into the void somewhat on here - as many of you made up your minds on Mowbray a long time ago. But for me, I can see progression each season and so I think that he has earned next season to see if we can make a serious, sustained push for the playoffs. If not, then I may well come round to the group mentality on here and call for him to be replaced.

Good points, well made.

I accept your point about TM's misfortune with injuries.

My view is that it is like a government, which neglected the social care system, leaving it anything but robust. Along comes Covid-19 and the crisis is far worse than it should have been with all the cracks exposed.

Even in children's football, a calamity keeper and 3 non-scoring forwards would give you a mountain to climb and that is how Blackburn Rovers entered this important season. 

It is not just the disappointment of the last 3 games either, although the performances have certainly tried my patience. And I do at least try to make it a policy not to post immediately after a defeat!

Since the high of our excellent away win at Bristol, it is something like 5 wins in 19 games. I haven't looked at the statistics, but I am pretty certain that we have put fewer crosses into the box than most other teams. No recognised winger, a pathological reliance on Gallagher to get down the line and Bennett, having to go back on his other foot are just a few of the reasons.

Mostly our build-up is too slow and we seem to have too much pointless possession, going nowhere. Add to that, the team needs significant additions in too many key positions. Too many to give any credence to TM's professed long term building strategy.

A club that seems to be going nowhere, standing still...before the resultant slide backwards. That's my worry...but I do so want to be proved wrong!

 

[tomphil]

The manager has to shoulder some responsibility for the missed chances imo.  When you constantly buy wide right sided forwards with no real goal scoring pedigree you simply cannot be surprised when they spurn good chances.  Good strikers do but they also sniff out goals and often take that one gilt edged chance that might fall for them in games.  Poor strikers don't and there's a world of difference.

We know TM has a weak spot when it comes to a proper defensive set up but it seems he's similar in the striker dept.  If that was Graham, Armstrong or Dack missing them you moan but when it's Gallagher or Samuel or Brereton you cannot be in the least bit surprised. There's 3 there combined cost of about 12 million with barely a consistent scoring record between them they just aren't finishers or poachers.

He should be trying to make at least one of them into a proper target man but he doesn't so putting your stock in them to win you games is misguided. It's poor management i'm sorry but he has to be called out on it, what we see from Samuel is just history repeating itself but he's obsessed with him for some unfathomable reason.

What we see from Gallagher & brereton are two lads shot of confidence not helped in anyway by the constant messing around with their positions. No team who was 1 point off the play offs should be playing like they don't believe but this lot do. 

[Herbie6590]

3 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

To be honest when did we last look like we actually wanted to be out there ? When did we last look like a team that enjoys playing football ?

Sheffield Wednesday away

[chaddyrovers]

4 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

To be honest when did we last look like we actually wanted to be out there ? When did we last look like a team that enjoys playing football ?

Bristol City at home. 4 games ago. Brentford, Charlton and Sheffied Wednesday away. Hull at home. 

 

 

[KS Cracovia]

4 hours ago, MarkBRFC said:

Nothing to do with Leeds. Just speaking to a mate of mine who went for a few in town yesterday afternoon and it was just local idiots causing trouble.

Cheers pal.

[DarthPaul]

8 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Bristol City at home. 4 games ago. Brentford, Charlton and Sheffied Wednesday away. Hull at home. 

 

 

5 times a season? Your standards are certainly lower than mine... 

[Exiled_Rover]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Another very poor performance against a far superior team in which some of the same criticisms are again evident.

Should have scored early on and looked better with Holtby as a 10 and Armstrong a 9. Then they just went on to totally dominate and out class us.

Gallaghers miss summed him up, a pathetic way to spend 5m and high wages. Never did I expect him to score. Rothwell achieved absolutely nothing yet again. Armstrong wonder goals are the only goal threat we have. And Walton is a dismal signing, so many mistakes. And Johnson is another really poor signing, he can barely run.

Dont want to see Samuel, Graham etc from now on. Nothing can be gained. Some regular starts for Rankin Costello, Chapman, Davenport, Buckley and mayve even Thompson.

Mowbray has to be let go now. As it is, he is safe, the owners dont care and the budgets to plan for next year havent been considered.

 

This hatred people have of Rothwell is baffling. Holtby was invisible, bar a 15 minute spell, yesterday. That's unacceptable yet nobody is calling him out.

Rothwell put Gallagher clean through for his miss. He was also instrumental in the build up play to the disallowed goal (how that was disallowed, but Travis was mugged for theirs is another matter).

He's not a fantastic player, but people gloss over the good stuff he does because they've made their mind up about him. 

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, Exiled_Rover said:

This hatred people have of Rothwell is baffling. Holtby was invisible, bar a 15 minute spell, yesterday. That's unacceptable yet nobody is calling him out.

Rothwell put Gallagher clean through for his miss. He was also instrumental in the build up play to the disallowed goal (how that was disallowed, but Travis was mugged for theirs is another matter).

He's not a fantastic player, but people gloss over the good stuff he does because they've made their mind up about him. 

Hatred? The reason that hes come under fire is that early on his attribute ie being quick and able to run at people were excited as they arent attribues weve seem often from Rovers players in recent years.

2 years on, a record of 2 goals and 3 assists is nowhere near enough and far too often he is totally ineffective. 

Holtby started the game really well but totally faded I would agree and was overall quite poor.

[Boroblue]

24 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Hatred? The reason that hes come under fire is that early on his attribute ie being quick and able to run at people were excited as they arent attribues weve seem often from Rovers players in recent years.

2 years on, a record of 2 goals and 3 assists is nowhere near enough and far too often he is totally ineffective. 

Holtby started the game really well but totally faded I would agree and was overall quite poor.

I agree initially he was everything you describe. Mowbray refused to play him regularly because those exact same attributes you describe he said where a liability. Mowbray has beaten the ability out of him play my way or not at all. So he has becomr one dimensional and only passes sideways or back. Never mind though at least it fits the system and now he gets games.

[roversfan99]

33 minutes ago, Boroblue said:

I agree initially he was everything you describe. Mowbray refused to play him regularly because those exact same attributes you describe he said where a liability. Mowbray has beaten the ability out of him play my way or not at all. So he has becomr one dimensional and only passes sideways or back. Never mind though at least it fits the system and now he gets games.

I would certainly ask questions about Mowbrays handling of him but I think its incredibly harsh to suggest that hes had the ability beaten out of him. Prior to joining the signing was very much a low risk gamble of a youngish player who had not really exerted himself as someone who had that end product even at League 1 level. After a couple of years of defensive wingers and wide strikers Rothwell broke through last year, running at players, scored a couple of screamers and I do think in hindsight it was a bit of a false dawn.

[Boroblue]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

I would certainly ask questions about Mowbrays handling of him but I think its incredibly harsh to suggest that hes had the ability beaten out of him. Prior to joining the signing was very much a low risk gamble of a youngish player who had not really exerted himself as someone who had that end product even at League 1 level. After a couple of years of defensive wingers and wide strikers Rothwell broke through last year, running at players, scored a couple of screamers and I do think in hindsight it was a bit of a false dawn.

I would agree if rothwell was an isolated incident but he’s not. Raya is a prime example. Armstrong until dacks injury was useless. I would even place holtby in this category regardless of experience .  I’m not for a second suggesting that rothwell is the second coming but there is a pattern particularly with younger players. It’s the is it the workman or should we blame the tools. 

[Exiled_Rover]

45 minutes ago, Boroblue said:

I would agree if rothwell was an isolated incident but he’s not. Raya is a prime example. Armstrong until dacks injury was useless. I would even place holtby in this category regardless of experience .  I’m not for a second suggesting that rothwell is the second coming but there is a pattern particularly with younger players. It’s the is it the workman or should we blame the tools. 

Asks Nyambe to cover the entire right flank on his own, then berates him when teams get in behind him.

He's a bad man manager.