Summer Transfer Window

[philipl]

A lot of muddled thinking going on here.

1) obviously covid makes money tight but not getting a points deduction from FFP is the absolute constraint. Totally deluded thinking if you ignore that.

2) career development of quite a few Rovers youngsters is going to be stymied by Leagues 1 and 2 salary caps unless Rovers turn into Father Christmas but see point 1 above

3) this is the who blinks first week. Covid FFP, there are some very desperate clubs and players out there. Anything or nothing could happen but Rovers people are working their proverbials off to make things happen.

4) October 16 goes by with nothing. Well there are still free agents out there. The issue with Bell is other than JRC at a push or Del totally out of position, Amari'i has no competition or back up. Downing or Aleesami might not be the solution for a complete season at LB but give competition/ back up. 

5) Charlie Mulgrew still needs sorting. There is probably a very expensive (for Rovers) deal to be done there. Quite how he fits into Fleetwood is Joey Barton's problem.

6) Fingers crossed a King deal eases FFP pressure otherwise we really will be in sell to buy territory in January BECAUSE OF FFP

 

[islander200]

6 hours ago, philipl said:

A lot of muddled thinking going on here.

1) obviously covid makes money tight but not getting a points deduction from FFP is the absolute constraint. Totally deluded thinking if you ignore that.

2) career development of quite a few Rovers youngsters is going to be stymied by Leagues 1 and 2 salary caps unless Rovers turn into Father Christmas but see point 1 above

3) this is the who blinks first week. Covid FFP, there are some very desperate clubs and players out there. Anything or nothing could happen but Rovers people are working their proverbials off to make things happen.

4) October 16 goes by with nothing. Well there are still free agents out there. The issue with Bell is other than JRC at a push or Del totally out of position, Amari'i has no competition or back up. Downing or Aleesami might not be the solution for a complete season at LB but give competition/ back up. 

5) Charlie Mulgrew still needs sorting. There is probably a very expensive (for Rovers) deal to be done there. Quite how he fits into Fleetwood is Joey Barton's problem.

6) Fingers crossed a King deal eases FFP pressure otherwise we really will be in sell to buy territory in January BECAUSE OF FFP

 

6)this season won't be counted toward FFP.Most clubs hardly have any income.They are waiting till window is closed to make an announcement to prevent silly spending

[philipl]

3 minutes ago, islander200 said:

6)this season won't be counted toward FFP.Most clubs hardly have any income.They are waiting till window is closed to make an announcement to prevent silly spending

I agree that is the sensible way forward. I would also look at 19/20 from March onwards for exclusion as well if possible.

BUT

FFP as currently drafted are still the official rules

Breaking the rules and offering "but we thought the rules were going to be changed" is a sure way of getting a transfer and a points deduction.

Edited October 13, 2020 by philipl

[JHRover]

9 minutes ago, philipl said:

I agree that is the sensible way forward. I would also look at 19/20 from March onwards for exclusion as well if possible.

BUT

FFP as currently drafted are still the official rules

Breaking the rules and offering "but we thought the rules were going to be changed" is a sure way of getting a transfer and a points deduction.

The focus should be promotion. Everything else is secondary. 

Sooner or later we are going to have to push things to try and get promoted. Obeying FFP rules to the letter might sound nice, but the sensible way forward is promotion asap. Medium term in this division just sees more significant losses and rebuilding following player departures.

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

10 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Sooner or later we are going to have to push things to try and get promoted. Obeying FFP rules to the letter might sound nice, but the sensible way forward is promotion asap.

So breaching FFP guarantees promotion? Because if it doesn't it's hello League 1 if there's a points deduction.

[JHRover]

25 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

So breaching FFP guarantees promotion? Because if it doesn't it's hello League 1 if there's a points deduction.

Who has been deducted points for overspending re. FFP rules?

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

3 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Who has been deducted points for overspending re. FFP rules?

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/efl-financial-fair-play-explained-2688083

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53612257

Have a look at the League table. You'll see a team on -7. 

So you're happy to 'bet the ranch' and risk relegation to try to achieve promotion? 

[philipl]

2 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/efl-financial-fair-play-explained-2688083

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53612257

Have a look at the League table. You'll see a team on -7. 

So you're happy to 'bet the ranch' and risk relegation to try to achieve promotion? 

And Birmingham two seasons ago and Derby came within a whisker this season.

[islander200]

1 hour ago, philipl said:

I agree that is the sensible way forward. I would also look at 19/20 from March onwards for exclusion as well if possible.

BUT

FFP as currently drafted are still the official rules

Breaking the rules and offering "but we thought the rules were going to be changed" is a sure way of getting a transfer and a points deduction.

 

1 hour ago, philipl said:

I agree that is the sensible way forward. I would also look at 19/20 from March onwards for exclusion as well if possible.

BUT

FFP as currently drafted are still the official rules

Breaking the rules and offering "but we thought the rules were going to be changed" is a sure way of getting a transfer and a points deduction.

I'm not suggesting we overspend but there won't be any need to sell in this  January's market if it is suspended for a year as expected.

It will give us a bit of leeway,so if we don't go up this year then we can sell an asset or two in the summer

Edited October 13, 2020 by islander200

[tomphil]

8 hours ago, philipl said:

A lot of muddled thinking going on here.

1) obviously covid makes money tight but not getting a points deduction from FFP is the absolute constraint. Totally deluded thinking if you ignore that.

2) career development of quite a few Rovers youngsters is going to be stymied by Leagues 1 and 2 salary caps unless Rovers turn into Father Christmas but see point 1 above

3) this is the who blinks first week. Covid FFP, there are some very desperate clubs and players out there. Anything or nothing could happen but Rovers people are working their proverbials off to make things happen.

4) October 16 goes by with nothing. Well there are still free agents out there. The issue with Bell is other than JRC at a push or Del totally out of position, Amari'i has no competition or back up. Downing or Aleesami might not be the solution for a complete season at LB but give competition/ back up. 

5) Charlie Mulgrew still needs sorting. There is probably a very expensive (for Rovers) deal to be done there. Quite how he fits into Fleetwood is Joey Barton's problem.

6) Fingers crossed a King deal eases FFP pressure otherwise we really will be in sell to buy territory in January BECAUSE OF FFP

 

I don't think these days most of Rovers youngsters will be on a whole lot more than some average lge 1 and 2 clubs pay.  Probably less in a few instances so i don't see that being a problem to be honest unless they can't pay anything and want them for free.

Even so if they can pay the insurance at least to cover and injuries then it's still worth getting out youngsters game time and experience elsewhere. We are paying them anyway and i'm sure that kind of thing happens anyway.

[JHRover]

41 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/efl-financial-fair-play-explained-2688083

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53612257

Have a look at the League table. You'll see a team on -7. 

So you're happy to 'bet the ranch' and risk relegation to try to achieve promotion? 

Could you tell me what offences Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham were actually deducted points for?

As I recall Sheffield Wednesday were sanctioned because they sold their stadium and then backdated it in their accounts in a clear attempt to cheat the system and fiddle the books. In the Judgment of the panel it was noted that they hadn't been sanctioned for spending too much. It was the way they tried to get around it.

Birmingham were put into a transfer embargo yet ignored it and went out and spent a 7 figure sum on that Danish/Norwegian full back they have. In response the League took them to a disciplinary panel for ignoring the embargo and continuing to spend.

Neither were deducted points for spending too much money. Nor would we be, within reason, e.g. signing a half decent left back or a couple of extra players for depth. I'm not suggesting a £20 million warchest, but increasing wages to closer to they were last season would be manageable and wouldn't result in sanctions and would give us a better chance of promotion this season.

I just wish people would accept that it comes down to Venkys and not the League as to how much we spend.

[JHRover]

39 minutes ago, philipl said:

And Birmingham two seasons ago and Derby came within a whisker this season.

Coming within a whisker means nothing. They weren't sanctioned, so it doesn't matter.

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

Just now, JHRover said:

Could you tell me what offences Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham were actually deducted points for?

As I recall Sheffield Wednesday were sanctioned because they sold their stadium and then backdated it in their accounts in a clear attempt to cheat the system and fiddle the books. In the Judgment of the panel it was noted that they hadn't been sanctioned for spending too much. It was the way they tried to get around it.

Birmingham were put into a transfer embargo yet ignored it and went out and spent a 7 figure sum on that Danish/Norwegian full back they have. In response the League took them to a disciplinary panel for ignoring the embargo and continuing to spend.

Neither were deducted points for spending too much money. Nor would we be, within reason, e.g. signing a half decent left back or a couple of extra players for depth. I'm not suggesting a £20 million warchest, but increasing wages to closer to they were last season would be manageable and wouldn't result in sanctions and would give us a better chance of promotion this season.

I just wish people would accept that it comes down to Venkys and not the League as to how much we spend.

Read the articles, that's why I linked them. And you answer your own question anyway. What you failed to mention is that it doesn't matter how you breach FFP rules, what matters is if you do. And SWFC sold their stadium to pay for the players they couldn't afford. It all boils down to the same FFP breaches in the end, hence why points were deducted.

Your last sentence is clearly nonsense. 

[JHRover]

23 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

It all boils down to the same FFP breaches in the end, hence why points were deducted.

No it doesn't. I've just explained that. 

The only clubs deducted points were for offences other than overspending. One was for fiddling their books to dodge restrictions and the other for ignoring a transfer embargo.

Nobody has been docked points for spending too much on players, which was the original suggestion made as to what would happen if we signed a few more players this summer.

[islander200]

27 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Could you tell me what offences Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham were actually deducted points for?

As I recall Sheffield Wednesday were sanctioned because they sold their stadium and then backdated it in their accounts in a clear attempt to cheat the system and fiddle the books. In the Judgment of the panel it was noted that they hadn't been sanctioned for spending too much. It was the way they tried to get around it.

Birmingham were put into a transfer embargo yet ignored it and went out and spent a 7 figure sum on that Danish/Norwegian full back they have. In response the League took them to a disciplinary panel for ignoring the embargo and continuing to spend.

Neither were deducted points for spending too much money. Nor would we be, within reason, e.g. signing a half decent left back or a couple of extra players for depth. I'm not suggesting a £20 million warchest, but increasing wages to closer to they were last season would be manageable and wouldn't result in sanctions and would give us a better chance of promotion this season.

I just wish people would accept that it comes down to Venkys and not the League as to how much we spend.

We have spent in the last 3 years though.You don't seem to acknowledge that.The big spenders in this division have sold star players to spend money.We haven't sold anyone.

Yeah we have lost a few from last season and the wage bill has been reduced for now but we have a few valuable assets that are coming into the last year or two of their contracts who will all want improved terms to renew.

I'm not defending Venkys here but I much prefer the way the club is being run now compared to s few years ago when we were handing out ridiculous contracts,Murphy, Etuhu,Best etc etc that led to a transfer embargo and put the club back years .

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

2 minutes ago, JHRover said:

No it doesn't. I've just explained that. 

The only clubs deducted points were for offences other than overspending. One was for fiddling their books to dodge restrictions and the other for ignoring a transfer embargo.

Nobody has been docked points for spending too much on players, which was the original suggestion made as to what would happen if we signed a few more players this summer.

Semantics. You haven't explained anything. 

If you overspend, you breach FFP. you get points deducted. Those are the rules. Are you saying those aren't the rules?

And if you sell your ground in order to circumvent FFP rules (as SWFC did) so that you can spend money on players you can't afford are you saying that isn't overspending?!

Also another question you ignored - are you prepared to breach FFP to gamble on promotion and run the risk of a points deduction and relegation to L1?

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

1 minute ago, islander200 said:

We have spent in the last 3 years though.You don't seem to acknowledge that.The big spenders in this division have sold star players to spend money.We haven't sold anyone.

He ignores these facts all the time. 

He also ignores that without the injections of cash they put in the club we'd have to sell everyone. 

The 'I'm not defending Venky's' caveat applies. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Hoochie Bloochie Mama

[JHRover]

1 minute ago, islander200 said:

We have spent in the last 3 years though.You don't seem to acknowledge that.The big spenders in this division have sold star players to spend money.We haven't sold anyone.

Yeah we have lost a few from last season and the wage bill has been reduced for now but we have a few valuable assets that are coming into the last year or two of their contracts who will all want improved terms to renew.

I'm not defending Venkys here but I much prefer the way the club is being run now compared to s few years ago when we were handing out ridiculous contracts,Murphy, Etuhu,Best etc etc that led to a transfer embargo and put the club back years .

Well actually we sold Raya which covered the majority of our transfer spending in 2019 and 2020 (Gallagher, Kaminski). The rest of our business has been loans or frees. They had a good spend following promotion in 2018, since then there has been limited expenditure in comparison to incomings.

Admittedly some of those frees and loans on good money and it is noted that we haven’t sold any of our prized assets other than Raya. But to do that we would need serious interest and I'm not sure there has been much of that to date.

I agree things are better now than in 2012. I wasn't saying they weren't. Just my opinion that getting worked up about FFP and potential issues down the line in the current climate is pointless, because it will certainly be put onto the back-burner and if it isnt then most of the league will be in trouble. Not just us.

[roversfan99]

Is there any indication that we are in serious risk/breach of FFP on the assumption that the rules are not flexed/eased due to covid and indeed we dont sell our playing assets this summer? Not from anything I can see. The manager has been consistent in saying that there is no urgency to sell Armstrong or indeed any specific player, so surely @philipl implying that we are at risk of a points deduction if we dont sell is just scaremongering.

This summer, we spent a reported £450k on one player, a couple more in on frees and Adarabioyo, Walton, Downing, Graham, Samuel, Smallwood, Hart and Leutwiler all are now off the wage bill. I dont agree with the prospect of risking a points deduction but with our current approach there is no suggestion of that being the case.

[booth]

FFP need abolishing asap.

[philipl]

1 hour ago, JHRover said:

Coming within a whisker means nothing. They weren't sanctioned, so it doesn't matter.

As I have written, deluded.

Sorry, but FFP is the biggest risk/threat Rovers currently face. 

[philipl]

11 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Is there any indication that we are in serious risk/breach of FFP on the assumption that the rules are not flexed/eased due to covid and indeed we dont sell our playing assets this summer? Not from anything I can see. The manager has been consistent in saying that there is no urgency to sell Armstrong or indeed any specific player, so surely @philipl implying that we are at risk of a points deduction if we dont sell is just scaremongering.

This summer, we spent a reported £450k on one player, a couple more in on frees and Adarabioyo, Walton, Downing, Graham, Samuel, Smallwood, Hart and Leutwiler all are now off the wage bill. I dont agree with the prospect of risking a points deduction but with our current approach there is no suggestion of that being the case.

Yes,

the numbers are being extremely carefully monitored. 

And it is as knife edge as you suggest.

£100k saved here allows £100k spending there. 

[JHRover]

1 minute ago, philipl said:

As I have written, deluded.

Sorry, but FFP is the biggest risk/threat Rovers currently face. 

Not according to Waggott it isnt.

And would a club under such imminent threat allow contract extensions for Smallwood, Hart, Samuel, Graham, Leutwiler and Tosin in the middle of a pandemic with the stadium shut? 

About £400,000 in wages over more than a month frittered away just there unnecessarily. Hardly the behaviour of a club on the limit.

[philipl]

Just now, JHRover said:

Not according to Waggott it isnt.

And would a club under such imminent threat allow contract extensions for Smallwood, Hart, Samuel, Graham, Leutwiler and Tosin in the middle of a pandemic with the stadium shut? 

About £400,000 in wages over more than a month frittered away just there unnecessarily. Hardly the behaviour of a club on the limit.

I am not arguing the merits.

I am telling you how it is.

[JHRover]

7 minutes ago, philipl said:

I am not arguing the merits.

I am telling you how it is.

Strange way for a club to operate then. On the precipice yet quite willing to dish out £400,000 on needless wages through the summer.

Something doesn't add up.