Summer Transfer Window

[JHRover]

49 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

He ignores these facts all the time. 

He also ignores that without the injections of cash they put in the club we'd have to sell everyone. 

The 'I'm not defending Venky's' caveat applies. 

What are you on about now?

Who has ignored injections of cash Venkys make? Yes they put a lot of money in. Welcome to the Championship in 2020. You think we are alone in relying on rich owners to fund the club?

The point was and is a simple one. It was claimed that we are on the precipice and face a points deduction/relegation if we spend more money on players. I refute that. I have explained why. No club has been docked points or relegated due to spending too much money on players. They tried to get Birmingham for it this season with a second points deduction but failed, and likewise Derby got away with it too.

Previous points deductions for Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham were not for spending too much but rather actions to avoid sanctions including dishonesty and not following an embargo put in place by the league.

 

 

[islander200]

42 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Strange way for a club to operate then. On the precipice yet quite willing to dish out £400,000 on needless wages through the summer.

Something doesn't add up.

Yeah so why do you keep banging the drum that we haven't spent any money when in the last 3 years we clearly have?

Like I said one player has been sold in the last 3 years in Raya for a massive 3 million.The clubs who have spent have either had parachute payments or have sold their better players to fund incoming transfers.

You mentioned Sheffield Wednesday and Derby County,they both finished below us last season and I'd put money on us finishing ahead of them this  season too and neither of them have been promoted despite big spending.

I'd be disappointed if we don't bring another couple in before deadline but I'm a realist and recognise it will most likely be loans as despite what you say no fans being allowed back in will impact on every club in the EFL

[Angry_Pirate]

Basically 3 days utill the window shuts and this thread (our business?) is dead on its arse.

Haven't been on here for a week which says it all. For about 20 pages I thought we were signing Chris Houghton though, so that was exciting. 

[islander200]

1 hour ago, JHRover said:

Well actually we sold Raya which covered the majority of our transfer spending in 2019 and 2020 (Gallagher, Kaminski). The rest of our business has been loans or frees. They had a good spend following promotion in 2018, since then there has been limited expenditure in comparison to incomings.

Admittedly some of those frees and loans on good money and it is noted that we haven’t sold any of our prized assets other than Raya. But to do that we would need serious interest and I'm not sure there has been much of that to date.

I agree things are better now than in 2012. I wasn't saying they weren't. Just my opinion that getting worked up about FFP and potential issues down the line in the current climate is pointless, because it will certainly be put onto the back-burner and if it isnt then most of the league will be in trouble. Not just us.

Did Gallagher not come in for 5 million so tell me how Raya covers Gallagher and Kaminski?

To you and me Raya might have been a prized asset but he wasn't to the manager.

You also think Bradley Johnson and Lewis Holtby came here without significant signing on fee's?Most certainly in the case of Holtby who had a big money offer from China.Did Tosin cost us nothing too?

What about the spending the summer before?

Edited October 13, 2020 by islander200

[rigger]

1 hour ago, JHRover said:

No it doesn't. I've just explained that. 

The only clubs deducted points were for offences other than overspending. One was for fiddling their books to dodge restrictions and the other for ignoring a transfer embargo.

Nobody has been docked points for spending too much on players, which was the original suggestion made as to what would happen if we signed a few more players this summer.

Nobody has been docked points for spending too much on players, yet. Someone will be the first. If we leave the option open, it will probably be us.  

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

1 hour ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

Semantics. You haven't explained anything. 

If you overspend, you breach FFP. you get points deducted. Those are the rules. Are you saying those aren't the rules?

And if you sell your ground in order to circumvent FFP rules (as SWFC did) so that you can spend money on players you can't afford are you saying that isn't overspending?!

Also another question you ignored - are you prepared to breach FFP to gamble on promotion and run the risk of a points deduction and relegation to L1?

@JHRover  You forgot to answer the above questions.

[islander200]

1 minute ago, rigger said:

Nobody has been docked points for spending too much on players, yet. Someone will be the first. If we leave the option open, it will probably be us.  

Yeah and a transfer embargo is nearly as bad as a points deduction,last time we had one it was a nightmare and played a very significant part in us getting relegated a couple of years later 

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

29 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Previous points deductions for Sheffield Wednesday and Birmingham were not for spending too much but rather actions to avoid sanctions including dishonesty and not following an embargo put in place by the league.

You just ignore the points the don't fit your narrative.

SWFC sold their stadium to try and circumvent FFP sanctions, because they spent too much money in relation to their income, and if they hadn't sold their stadium they would have posted a loss of over £30m... because they spent too much on players.

And why did Birmingham get placed under an embargo that ultimately resulted in a points deduction? That's right, because they spent too much money on players when good old 'Arry was in charge.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/birmingham-city-fc-transfer-embargo-14885448

So the primary cause of SWFC and BFC being deducted points was because they spent too much money on players in relation to their income. That's how FFP works. 

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

11 minutes ago, rigger said:

Nobody has been docked points for spending too much on players, yet. Someone will be the first. If we leave the option open, it will probably be us.  

Yes they have. BFC and SWFC. As explained above. 

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

18 minutes ago, islander200 said:

Did Gallagher not come in for 5 million so tell me how Raya covers Gallagher and Kaminski?

To you and me Raya might have been a prized asset but he wasn't to the manager.

You also think Bradley Johnson and Lewis Holtby came here without significant signing on fee's?Most certainly in the case of Holtby who had a big money offer from China.Did Tosin cost us nothing too?

What about the spending the summer before?

The money spent on Brereton has also been ignored. That deal was made permanent on 2019. 

[rigger]

1 minute ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

Yes they have. BFC and SWFC. As explained above. 

If you look at my statement you will notice that the first part, up to the comma, is a quote from JHRover. Then I added, yet. This was to point out that someone will be the first at some point .

[Ewood Ace]

4 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

Yes they have. BFC and SWFC. As explained above. 

They were both deducted points for breaching profit and sustainability rules. Profit and sustainability are two words that haven't been heard at Ewood for nearly a decade and won't be heard again unless we get back into the Premiership.

 

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

2 minutes ago, rigger said:

If you look at my statement you will notice that the first part, up to the comma, is a quote from JHRover. Then I added, yet. This was to point out that someone will be the first at some point .

And my point was they already have. 

[philipl]

1 hour ago, JHRover said:

Strange way for a club to operate then. On the precipice yet quite willing to dish out £400,000 on needless wages through the summer.

Something doesn't add up.

Honouring contracts and commitments do add up.

[philipl]

11 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

They were both deducted points for breaching profit and sustainability rules. Profit and sustainability are two words that haven't been heard at Ewood for nearly a decade and won't be heard again unless we get back into the Premiership.

 

And what is FFP?

And what are Rovers rubbing up against other than sustainability supported by the owners, not profitability?

Edited October 13, 2020 by philipl

[JHRover]

38 minutes ago, islander200 said:

Yeah so why do you keep banging the drum that we haven't spent any money when in the last 3 years we clearly have?

Like I said one player has been sold in the last 3 years in Raya for a massive 3 million.The clubs who have spent have either had parachute payments or have sold their better players to fund incoming transfers.

You mentioned Sheffield Wednesday and Derby County,they both finished below us last season and I'd put money on us finishing ahead of them this  season too and neither of them have been promoted despite big spending.

I'd be disappointed if we don't bring another couple in before deadline but I'm a realist and recognise it will most likely be loans as despite what you say no fans being allowed back in will impact on every club in the EFL

We have spent money yes. Where did I say we hadn't. I thought the point I was making was that we could bring in additional players and not be deducted points.

18 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

Yes they have. BFC and SWFC. As explained above. 

No they haven't. Try reading the verdicts of the Independent Disciplinary Panels.

If Sheffield Wednesday hadn't lied about when they sold Hillsborough and put the sale in the previous season's accounts they would have been fine. If Birmingham hadn't signed Pedersen whilst under a transfer embargo they would have been fine. The league tried, and failed, to dock points from both Derby and Birmingham this year for spending too much (both spent considerably more than us). So why should we spend our lives living in fear of points deductions that rivals have dodged?

21 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

You just ignore the points the don't fit your narrative.

SWFC sold their stadium to try and circumvent FFP sanctions, because they spent too much money in relation to their income, and if they hadn't sold their stadium they would have posted a loss of over £30m... because they spent too much on players.

And why did Birmingham get placed under an embargo that ultimately resulted in a points deduction? That's right, because they spent too much money on players when good old 'Arry was in charge.

https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/birmingham-city-fc-transfer-embargo-14885448

So the primary cause of SWFC and BFC being deducted points was because they spent too much money on players in relation to their income. That's how FFP works. 

Thanks for confirming my point. Neither points deduction was for spending too much on players but later attempts by those clubs to cheat their way around it through underhand means.

If Sheff Wed had sold their stadium a year earlier, like Derby, Villa and Reading all did, they would have got off with nothing. If Birmingham had obeyed the embargo, like we did, they wouldn't have had any points deducted.

41 minutes ago, islander200 said:

Did Gallagher not come in for 5 million so tell me how Raya covers Gallagher and Kaminski?

To you and me Raya might have been a prized asset but he wasn't to the manager.

You also think Bradley Johnson and Lewis Holtby came here without significant signing on fee's?Most certainly in the case of Holtby who had a big money offer from China.Did Tosin cost us nothing too?

What about the spending the summer before?

Estimated total costs of Gallagher and Kaminski were just over £5 million. Estimated sale of Raya was upwards of £3 million. You can guarantee that a chunk of the Gallagher fee was instalments and add ons that come down the line rather than up front.

Raya was a prized asset. He was one of our own, an academy product who we had been patient with and nurtured through into the first time. Not perfect by any stretch but a good young keeper. The manager sold him to Brentford of all clubs. Was that because he wanted rid of Raya or because he wanted £3 million into his transfer kitty to get other players?

I think I acknowledged earlier that they had a decent spend the year before on Armstrong and Brereton. The point I made was that since 2018 (so the 2 years of 2019 and 2020) the fees we have paid out on transfers - Kaminski, Gallagher etc - have been majority accounted for through the sale of Raya.

The argument being made was that we hadn't sold anyone and that we had spent money over the last couple of years. Dealing purely in transfer fees that isn't correct, because the majority of expenditure has been covered through the Raya sale.

Of course the loans and frees will have had associated costs. You will never find a transfer that costs £0. You will never have a departure that doesn't save the club money. You don't label every incoming as an extra burden on finances whilst ignoring the substantial funds going the other way on players out of contract etc.

[JHRover]

8 minutes ago, philipl said:

Honouring contracts and commitments do add up.

What contracts? Legally those players were out of contract as of the end of June 2020.

The club/Mowbray made a decision and committed to extensions of 4 weeks through to the end of July 2020 after the Luton game. That wasn't a commitment they had to honour, it was a choice.

You might call it the 'right thing to do' or whatever but if the club is on the cusp of FFP carnage as you suggest then you don't authorise further substantial outlay of that level for no apparent benefit.

What do you reckon as an estimated cost of that decision (at a time when the club had no income due to Covid)? Minimum £80,000 per week is my guestimate.

Richie Smallwood, Dominic Samuel, Danny Graham, Stewart Downing, Sam Hart and Jayson Leutwiler were all given new deals, and likewise agreements were reached with Man City for Tosin and Brighton for Walton for them to stay on. I expect all were on similar terms to their existing arrangements.

Now from a footballing perspective I had no objection to those decisions, except perhaps the Smallwood and Hart ones as it was obvious neither were ever going to feature, but from a financial POV no. Also given where we sat in late June after the Barnsley and Wigan defears we didn't have a promotion push to fight for so there was no immediate need for them to stay.

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

7 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Thanks for confirming my point. Neither points deduction was for spending too much on players but later attempts by those clubs to cheat their way around it through underhand means.

I didn't confirm your point. Again you ignore the bits that don't suit your narrative. They had to cheat their way out BECAUSE thye'd spent too much money. I even provided you with the link to the Birmingham case. I'll quote if for you again so you understand:-

Blues are said to have been stung under Financial Fair Play guidelines following last summer's spending spree under Harry Redknapp

It's in the headline. 

 

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

10 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I think I acknowledged earlier that they had a decent spend the year before on Armstrong and Brereton. The point I made was that since 2018 (so the 2 years of 2019 and 2020) the fees we have paid out on transfers - Kaminski, Gallagher etc - have been majority accounted for through the sale of Raya.

Brereton was 2019. 

[islander200]

8 minutes ago, JHRover said:

We have spent money yes. Where did I say we hadn't. I thought the point I was making was that we could bring in additional players and not be deducted points.

No they haven't. Try reading the verdicts of the Independent Disciplinary Panels.

If Sheffield Wednesday hadn't lied about when they sold Hillsborough and put the sale in the previous season's accounts they would have been fine. If Birmingham hadn't signed Pedersen whilst under a transfer embargo they would have been fine. The league tried, and failed, to dock points from both Derby and Birmingham this year for spending too much (both spent considerably more than us). So why should we spend our lives living in fear of points deductions that rivals have dodged?

Thanks for confirming my point. Neither points deduction was for spending too much on players but later attempts by those clubs to cheat their way around it through underhand means.

If Sheff Wed had sold their stadium a year earlier, like Derby, Villa and Reading all did, they would have got off with nothing. If Birmingham had obeyed the embargo, like we did, they wouldn't have had any points deducted.

Estimated total costs of Gallagher and Kaminski were just over £5 million. Estimated sale of Raya was upwards of £3 million. You can guarantee that a chunk of the Gallagher fee was instalments and add ons that come down the line rather than up front.

Raya was a prized asset. He was one of our own, an academy product who we had been patient with and nurtured through into the first time. Not perfect by any stretch but a good young keeper. The manager sold him to Brentford of all clubs. Was that because he wanted rid of Raya or because he wanted £3 million into his transfer kitty to get other players?

I think I acknowledged earlier that they had a decent spend the year before on Armstrong and Brereton. The point I made was that since 2018 (so the 2 years of 2019 and 2020) the fees we have paid out on transfers - Kaminski, Gallagher etc - have been majority accounted for through the sale of Raya.

The argument being made was that we hadn't sold anyone and that we had spent money over the last couple of years. Dealing purely in transfer fees that isn't correct, because the majority of expenditure has been covered through the Raya sale.

 

So you are saying Brentford paid us 3 million up front for Raya?,They didn't like we didn't pay it all up front for Gallagher.

The manager dropped Raya, criticized him through the media,Raya asked to leave all things you conveniently ignore to suit your argument.

Do you know that Gallagher doesn't have clauses in his contract that will up his fee like Raya?You don't know.

You have said often we don't spend money,if I could be assed id go back and find them.

Raya transfer fee didn't cover half of what we spent last summer.

Beginning of summer you almost guaranteed us all that we wouldn't pay a fee for a goalkeeper, now we have you claim it was Raya's fee that paid for it.You are just changing things around to suit your argument.

[JHRover]

Just now, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

I didn't confirm your point. Again you ignore the bits that don't suit your narrative. They had to cheat their way out BECAUSE thye'd spent too much money. I even provided you with the link to the Birmingham case. I'll quote if for you again so you understand:-

Blues are said to have been stung under Financial Fair Play guidelines following last summer's spending spree under Harry Redknapp

It's in the headline. 

 

THE PUNISHMENT WAS FOR CHEATING NOT FOR OVERSPENDING

1 minute ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

Brereton was 2019. 

The deal was agreed to in 2018. The formalities and permanent signing went through in 2019 as we had agreed it during the loan window.

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

Just now, JHRover said:

THE PUNISHMENT WAS FOR CHEATING NOT FOR OVERSPENDING

The deal was agreed to in 2018. The formalities and permanent signing went through in 2019 as we had agreed it during the loan window.

LOL. So we paid all monies up front to Forest in 2018 for BB at the start of his loan when he only signed permanently in Jan 2019? That's a high-risk strategy!! Have you got a link to the accounts or a link to an artile that verifies your point that no monies were paid for BB after Summer 2018 (which would have appeared in the 2019 accounts anyway!)

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE PUNISHMENT WAS FOR CHEATING BECAUSE THEY HAD SPENT TOO MUCH MONEY UNDER REDKNAPP ON PLAYERS> IT'S IN THE HEADLINE IN THE BIRMINGHAM MAIL WHO I'D IMAGINE KNOW MORE ABOUT IT THAN YOU. OVERTSPENDING IS CHEATING.

I'll quote from the article again as you seem to be ignoring the facts (again)

"Blues are said to have been stung under Financial Fair Play guidelines following last summer's spending spree under Harry Redknapp. It is reported that Blues chiefs had been given a period to fix the FFP situation but that did not happen"

And from the Guardian AFTER the decision was formally made:-

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/mar/22/birmingham-city-deducted-nine-points-efl-football-league-financial-breaches

"Birmingham are facing a battle to avoid relegation after being docked nine points for a breach of the Football League’s profitability and sustainability rules"

"The cost of hiring and firing the managers Gianfranco Zola and Harry Redknapp allied to a series of expensive signings has caught up with the club and is now imprinted on a hastily amended Championship table"

So actually nothing to do with an embargo at all!

Get your facts right?

 

[roversfan99]

Does any of this add any further proof that we as an individual club are so close to the line that we have to sell an Armstrong to avoid a points deduction?

[philipl]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

Does any of this add any further proof that we as an individual club are so close to the line that we have to sell an Armstrong to avoid a points deduction?

We don't have to sell Armstrong!

What I wrote is if we did it would relieve the extreme pressure the club is under to keep within FFP.

FFP rather than Venky parsimoniousness is the squeeze we are under THIS WEEK as the window closure rushes towards us.

Won't stop us from doing creative very low cash deals- a huge amount is riding on who blinks first showing their desperation. There are clubs out there if they blink will show they are about to fold. Rovers are most definitely not in that category.

Mowbray again today is talking about creating competition for places.

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

3 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Does any of this add any further proof that we as an individual club are so close to the line that we have to sell an Armstrong to avoid a points deduction?

who said we did?