Summer Transfer Window

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

‘Shit’, is that what the stats say?

No. I very clearly said "in my opinion". Read.

[Mattyblue]

Oh. I was hoping for some more bar charts 

 

I asked and he delivered ⬇️

Edited August 5, 2020 by Mattyblue

[Dreams of 1995]

Just now, JoeH said:

Please ask away, I'm happy to use any statistic in any situation. I don't use it when it suits. Load of tosh.

Ok then.

What do the important stats say about Raya?

Edited August 5, 2020 by Dreams of 1995

[tomphil]

9 hours ago, Richard Oakley said:

@chaddyroversThanks for confirming that everyone involved at the club with transfers has gone on holiday.My apologies for not qualifying my 'everyone'. You've said that you don't know, if Mowbray knows his budget. You hope the club will issue a statement clarifying this.

Do you think we'll sign anyone before pre-season starts? Do we have to sell before we can sign anyone?

@Paul Mani tells us that Venkys always put money in. @arbitro  posted a response he'd had from the Ticket Office describing the club as 'cash-strapped'. Another poster wrote that Venkys had stopped topping up the wages of furloughed staff as from the beginning of August. How much are our trade creditors now owed? How much is the State Bank of India owed? Why then has no attempt been made to raise funds from the sale of season tickets?@J H Rover has been attempting to get the community to question the non-sale of season tickets only to be poo-poohed. 

There is an attempt to make things look normal. Talking to a player. Enquiring about others. Allegedly making bids for players. A facade of normalcy. Yet, were things normal, there'd be staggered holidays so that business can occur. I'm wondering, if the proverbial fat lady is about to sing.

There's still external debt in the form of overdraft that will be heading towards its limit no doubt. I'm pretty sure that's be pinned on the club and its assets so that's the thing to watch.  Probably around 15 million and it'll have interest and charges so that for me is what those in Ewood will want to keep under control.

The owners pay enough in to cover wages etc but not sure they'd want to wipe that off or a large lump of it.  Doesn't seem to work like that with them.

As for Pr Mani well like a few others he conveniently chooses to omit the last time something like this happened. For whatever reason Vs turned the taps off at the wrong time, or down to a trickle at least. The club had to borrow left right and center to keep going then the sales began. Of course by then we ended up under embargo so it couldn't be reinvested so for a spell we signing utter dross off the usual client lists. Still wracked up a million or more in agents fees though, they didn't go hungry. No cash buys for several years until Williams for a few hundred grand.  As we know all that led to relegation.

These circumstances are odd now though we've gone from looking in a reasonably healthy position compared to any other time under their ownership.  To possibly a very precarious one but the club has plenty assets now, just a question of when not if the auction starts.

Edited August 5, 2020 by tomphil

[Guest]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

Ok then.

What do the stats say about Raya?

Awesome. Here's David Raya's 2018/19 Data for Rovers.

Just incase the wording is a little fuzzy, we've got Long Pass Accuracy, Long Passes Per 90, Short/Medium Pass Acc %, Short/Medium Passes Per 90, Goals xGa (expected against), xG Against Per 90, Save %, Goals Per 90 (When Raya plays). 

The Championship mean average is the dotted line. This data is stolen from another source (Andy Watson) , but happy to research myself and back up.

[JHRover]

At a proper football club after selling Raya there would have been a coherent strategy to replace him and address other areas before splurging the whole lot on someone like Gallagher with no defined role for him in the team. Then the cupboard is bare for spending on crucial positions so we end up scuttling around for a few generous loans to plug gaps, kicking the can down the road for another 12 months.

Now it is coming back to bite.

I almost struggle to believe that Mowbray likes Gallagher enough to splash his entire budget on him especially when you look at where and how he has used him in the side. Very strange.

It's almost as though someone else took a shine to him last time he was here and obtained the funds from Venkys to make it a permanent deal, on the basis he was likely to grow in value of course.

Selling, reluctantly, a decent player every few years may be necessary or helpful but it is the way in which that comes about that is the concern. The Brentford way works because they have replacement targets lined up ready to go and spend the money back on the squad.

Here it will be confusion, inertia then permission for a few loans instead.

Edited August 5, 2020 by JHRover

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Mattyblue said:

Oh. I was hoping for some more bar charts 

"ignore" me then if you don't like what I post.

You'll find that football is all about data in 2020, every club is using it to get ahead.

[Mattyblue]

1 minute ago, JoeH said:

"ignore" me then if you don't like what I post.

You'll find that football is all about data in 2020, every club is using it to get ahead.

Agreed, very important. 

So could you clear up why Goode should be avoided at all costs ‘because the data’...   yet Raya who has ‘awesome’ data is ‘shit’ and it’s great that he was sold?

Edited August 5, 2020 by Mattyblue

[Guest]

 

Just now, Mattyblue said:

So could you clear up why Goode should be avoided at all costs ‘because the data’...   yet Raya who has ‘awesome’ data is ‘shit’ and it’s great that he was sold?

Again. Read. I didn't call Raya's data awesome, I just said awesome to Dreams asking the question. FFS.

The desperation to try and "catch me out" is bloody funny. I literally just said awesome to someone, nothing to do with David Raya, it was a single worded stand-alone sentence. 

Edited August 5, 2020 by JoeH

[Guest]

Just now, Mattyblue said:

So could you clear up why Goode should be avoided at all costs ‘because the data’

Goode should be avoided because he would cost £1m+ and we have a player 2-years younger who played in that same Northampton side, with very similar, if not slightly better, data. Simple. Always maintained that.

[Mattyblue]

Just now, JoeH said:

 

Again. Read. I didn't call Raya's data awesome, I just said awesome to Dreams asking the question. FFS.

You are an angry bugger aren’t ya when challenged, not sure you’ve got to grips with this place yet.

 Ok does Raya have poor stats? (That’s golden glove winner David Raya). Stats that make him ‘shit’?

Edited August 5, 2020 by Mattyblue

[BG1492]

7 minutes ago, JoeH said:

"ignore" me then if you don't like what I post.

You'll find that football is all about data in 2020, every club is using it to get ahead.

We get that but the boys at clubs using data are probably doing their graphs correctly. 

[phili]

Can we all agree, 10-15 years ago, Raya would never have made a first team appearance with us, with the strength of goalkeepers we used to have. I think he is probably of the same level as Alan Fettis or John Filan and shows how far we have fallen under Venky's.

Raya had started to stagnate with us, wasn't learning from his mistakes and our coaching set up now is nowhere near where it needs to be to develop or rehabilitate any players. For all concerned it was probably best he left, but our issue is we didn't replace him and used the funds for another part of the team.

[Mattyblue]

Just now, phili said:

Can we all agree, 10-15 years ago, Raya would never have made a first team appearance with us, with the strength of goalkeepers we used to have. I think he is probably of the same level as Alan Fettis or John Filan and shows how far we have fallen under Venky's.

Raya had started to stagnate with us, wasn't learning from his mistakes and our coaching set up now is nowhere near where it needs to be to develop or rehabilitate any players. For all concerned it was probably best he left, but our issue is we didn't replace him and used the funds for another part of the team.

Of course, or he’d have been loaned out to this level to make his mistakes.

We used to be so strong with keepers that even Shay Given couldn’t get a sniff!

 

[Dreams of 1995]

Just now, JoeH said:

Awesome. Here's David Raya's 2018/19 Data for Rovers.

Just incase the wording is a little fuzzy, we've got Long Pass Accuracy, Long Passes Per 90, Short/Medium Pass Acc %, Short/Medium Passes Per 90, Goals xGa (expected against), xG Against Per 90, Save %, Goals Per 90 (When Raya plays). 

The Championship mean average is the dotted line. This data is stolen from another source (Andy Watson) , but happy to research myself and back up.

Nah, nah. I said important stats. Why do I need to see his season before last stats? Is that because this seasons stats doesn't back you up?

He won the golden glove because he kept the most clean sheets this season. That is the only stat that counts for a goalkeeper.

Joe, you don't help yourself at all. You go on tirades about why we shouldn't sign players using an assemblage of graphs, stats and so on - which is fine, by the way - but then in another argument, when it suits, you use out of date stats and don't provide the actual meaningful ones. 

The fact remains that last season David Raya was an exceptional Championship standard goalkeeper. In fact, a post on the Brentford forum perfectly sums my thoughts up and to paraphrase: this is the glass ceiling for Championship keepers, and until we get promoted we won't get better. 

 

 

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

6 minutes ago, JoeH said:

"ignore" me then if you don't like what I post.

You'll find that football is all about data in 2020, every club is using it to get ahead.

What the data doesn't tell you is that although a goalkeeper may make a save (added to the data)  it was a routine save from a weak shot that the Keeper not only failed to hold but palmed out to the feet of the on-rushing striker who scored form 5 yards out. Raya did that the other day for Brentford. 

[Guest]

Just now, Mattyblue said:

You are an angry bugger aren’t ya when challenged

You didn't "challenge" me, you claimed I said something that I categorically didn't, teased me for my enjoyment of data and are continuously on the wind up. You're acting a child and it's highly frustrating. If you don't like what I post, "ignore"/block me and move on. Stop picking away at every word I dare to post. 

Just now, Mattyblue said:

not sure you’ve got to grips with this place yet.

I understand "this place" completely. It's actually very simple to get your head around. There are playground bully types like you who nit-pick away at everything people dare to post on the forum, who will never not respond to what you say, of course as well never quoting or tagging you therefore its impossible to keep track. Then you have normal people, people who want to discuss Rovers without the whole thing being a competition, about who can catch who out and who can win the game. 

Just now, BG1492 said:

We get that but the boys at clubs using data are probably doing their graphs correctly. 

Data work is a huge part of my job. I don't "do my graphs incorrectly". I post data from trusted sources and react accordingly. I don't lie about it and I always post my source for the data so people can see for themselves. Anybody who asks can see whatever they want because it's something I enjoy, I don't change anything that's fact.

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

Nah, nah. I said important stats. Why do I need to see his season before last stats? Is that because this seasons stats doesn't back you up?

He won the golden glove because he kept the most clean sheets this season. That is the only stat that counts for a goalkeeper.

Joe, you don't help yourself at all. You go on tirades about why we shouldn't sign players using an assemblage of graphs, stats and so on - which is fine, by the way - but then in another argument, when it suits, you use out of date stats and don't provide the actual meaningful ones. 

The fact remains that last season David Raya was an exceptional Championship standard goalkeeper. In fact, a post on the Brentford forum perfectly sums my thoughts up and to paraphrase: this is the glass ceiling for Championship keepers, and until we get promoted we won't get better. 

I'm not trying to be funny pal but you never once asked me for his 2019/20 stats. I just assumed you wanted his Rovers stats. That wasn't supposed to be a dupe, to mug you off or try to make it look a certain way, you legitimately NEVER said which one you wanted. FFS.

I'm not doing anything "so it suits", I just assumed as we were talking about the time that we sold Raya, that we were discussing his data at Rovers from that season.

[phili]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

Nah, nah. I said important stats. Why do I need to see his season before last stats? Is that because this seasons stats doesn't back you up?

He won the golden glove because he kept the most clean sheets this season. That is the only stat that counts for a goalkeeper.

Joe, you don't help yourself at all. You go on tirades about why we shouldn't sign players using an assemblage of graphs, stats and so on - which is fine, by the way - but then in another argument, when it suits, you use out of date stats and don't provide the actual meaningful ones. 

The fact remains that last season David Raya was an exceptional Championship standard goalkeeper. In fact, a post on the Brentford forum perfectly sums my thoughts up and to paraphrase: this is the glass ceiling for Championship keepers, and until we get promoted we won't get better. 

 

 

That's his last season with us and our poor defence and coaching department.

A good goalkeeping coach, good defenders infront of him and a manager who believes in him and doesn't critize him and we are seeing what a good keeper he can be. 

[Guest]

Just now, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

What the data doesn't tell you is that although a goalkeeper may make a save (added to the data)  it was a routine save from a weak shot that the Keeper not only failed to hold but palmed out to the feet of the on-rushing striker who scored form 5 yards out. Raya did that the other day for Brentford. 

Absolutely. I wouldn't claim data is the only factor in determining a players ability. I don't think David Raya was good enough in 2018/19 because of the data AND my own personal viewing of him. As you say, data can't pick up certain factors, and that's always going to be the case. I don't deny that.

[Dreams of 1995]

Just now, phili said:

Can we all agree, 10-15 years ago, Raya would never have made a first team appearance with us, with the strength of goalkeepers we used to have. I think he is probably of the same level as Alan Fettis or John Filan and shows how far we have fallen under Venky's.

Raya had started to stagnate with us, wasn't learning from his mistakes and our coaching set up now is nowhere near where it needs to be to develop or rehabilitate any players. For all concerned it was probably best he left, but our issue is we didn't replace him and used the funds for another part of the team.

What?

How had he stagnated? It was his 2nd full time season for us really., his first in the Championship. He continues to make them mistakes but as you allude to yourself: he isn't a Premier League goalkeeper yet, which is the only reason he wouldn't have featured 10-15 years ago.

I'm boggled by the thought he was stagnating at us. If you think only 1 full season at any given level resembles stagnation then you mustn't have any patience whatsoever.

In any case it is irrelevant because now Brentford are benefiting from our 'poor coaching set up' that from academy level has developed a ball playing shot stopper that needs some work to develop into a senior. Goalkeepers play until they are 35, you think he stagnated at 23. I don't get it. David Raya is a modern goalkeeper and losing him for £3m is another of Tony's shockers, however which way we want to revise history.

[Guest]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

David Raya is a modern goalkeeper and losing him for £3m is another of Tony's shockers, however which way we want to revise history.

We lost so many games because of him that season and Brentford just lost the play-off final because of him too. He can be as modern as he wants in my opinion, I don't need to use data to say he's not a Premier League keeper, in my opinion.

[Mattyblue]

It’s called disagreeing with you Joe. You struggle with that, you are very sure of your views, perhaps your data background is to do with that, as shown by  the nonsensical view that those that don’t have the same opinion as you on JRC must be ‘biased’, not that they simply see things differently.

So obviously you must think someone who doesn’t share your opinion a fair bit (like me) must be on ‘the wind up’, how dare I have the temerity!

Edited August 5, 2020 by Mattyblue

[tomphil]

He went out on loan but then spent a season or 2 sat on our bench. Couple that with a downgrade in coaching and keepers he wasw working with it could be argued he stagnated a bit. Certainly didn't continue to evolve, valuable learning time on the job wasted there.

[phili]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

What?

How had he stagnated? It was his 2nd full time season for us really., his first in the Championship. He continues to make them mistakes but as you allude to yourself: he isn't a Premier League goalkeeper yet, which is the only reason he wouldn't have featured 10-15 years ago.

I'm boggled by the thought he was stagnating at us. If you think only 1 full season at any given level resembles stagnation then you mustn't have any patience whatsoever.

In any case it is irrelevant because now Brentford are benefiting from our 'poor coaching set up' that from academy level has developed a ball playing shot stopper that needs some work to develop into a senior. Goalkeepers play until they are 35, you think he stagnated at 23. I don't get it. David Raya is a modern goalkeeper and losing him for £3m is another of Tony's shockers, however which way we want to revise history.

Our academy goalkeeping coaches did a very good job developing Raya and are more experienced than our first team goalkeeping coach, who we have recruited on the cheap.

[Ewood Ace]

20 minutes ago, JoeH said:

"ignore" me then if you don't like what I post.

You'll find that football is all about data in 2020, every club is using it to get ahead.

If every club is using it to get ahead then for the vast majority of them it isn't working.