Summer Transfer Window

[BG1492]

It’s all about opinions Joe which your allowed to have just as much as anybody.

You don’t need to provide stats to push your opinion, especially when they don’t really provide anything worth noting.

[Dreams of 1995]

Just now, JoeH said:

We lost so many games because of him that season and Brentford just lost the play-off final because of him too. He can be as modern as he wants in my opinion, I don't need to use data to say he's not a Premier League keeper, in my opinion.

Yet. You are nailing your flag to the mast at the age of 24. He's a child in goalkeeping terms. He has another 13 years in him at least. This was his 3rd full competitive season, his 2nd at this level, and he kept the most clean sheets and narrowly missed out on promotion because, and I quote from the Brentford lot, "of a shocking few minutes".

He had a great season with them and I couldn't help but think what we missed out on. David Raya is a cut above most goalkeepers at this level that's for sure, where he stands in the rankings of Premier League keepers is another matter, but that will come.

We also weren't discussing whether he was a Premier League keeper, you called him a shit keeper. He clearly isn't a shit keeper because he is the best at our level. 

[Dreams of 1995]

Just now, phili said:

Our academy goalkeeping coaches did a very good job developing Raya and are more experienced than our first team goalkeeping coach, who we have recruited on the cheap.

Fair point Phili, I kind of get where you are coming from. He has performed better at Brentford but, without being in the set up, it is hard to say whether or not the goalkeeping training there just kept up his development or whether it accelerated it. For all we know, he could have been on course to deliver a similar season here.

Although the Brentford GK coach did leave for Arsenal I believe, which probably tells its own story!

[Sparks Rover]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

Yet. You are nailing your flag to the mast at the age of 24. He's a child in goalkeeping terms. He has another 13 years in him at least. This was his 3rd full competitive season, his 2nd at this level, and he kept the most clean sheets and narrowly missed out on promotion because, and I quote from the Brentford lot, "of a shocking few minutes".

He had a great season with them and I couldn't help but think what we missed out on. David Raya is a cut above most goalkeepers at this level that's for sure, where he stands in the rankings of Premier League keepers is another matter, but that will come.

We also weren't discussing whether he was a Premier League keeper, you called him a shit keeper. He clearly isn't a shit keeper because he is the best at our level. 

I called him a shit keeper plenty last season and last night vindicated me....he's a disaster waiting to happen.  Looks nice with easy shits to stop, but he's got a mental block.

[Ewood Ace]

55 minutes ago, JoeH said:

“I don’t sit here thinking we’re going to sell a major asset to help us recruit, but if somebody bids money which we think is right for a player we think we should let go because we can improve the team, then we will do that.”  - Tony Mowbray

I wouldn't be against selling say a key player to reinvest in the side. Norwich and Sheffield United did it and both got promoted and Brentford did it and got to the play off final. But I would have absolutely zero faith in Tony Mowbray to reinvest that money to improve the team, he'd most likely come back with a handful of magic beans.

[phili]

Just now, Sparks Rover said:

I called him a shit keeper plenty last season and last night vindicated me....he's a disaster waiting to happen.  Looks nice with easy shits to stop, but he's got a mental block.

I think a lot of the errors will go with more experience and more coaching.

He will now know he has to work on that part of his game, especially when Fulham say they identified the weakness and spent the last week working on set pieces to exploit it. To be honest i didn't think Parker had that sort of intelligence.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, BG1492 said:

It’s all about opinions Joe which your allowed to have just as much as anybody.

You don’t need to provide stats to push your opinion, especially when they don’t really provide anything worth noting.

I am aware, I post data because I find it interesting. Whenever I happen a) Make a mistake, b) make a claim based off of that data or c) use "too much" data I am mocked by several on here for daring to use it. Definitely doesn't feel like freedom to have an opinion at all

[JacknOry]

9 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

If every club is using it to get ahead then for the vast majority of them it isn't working.

Ironically, Brentford that is renowned for going the analytical route and arguably getting ahead from it, signed the 'shit' Raya.

[Guest]

Just now, JacknOry said:

Ironically, Brentford that is renowned for going the analytical route and arguably getting ahead from it, signed the 'shit' Raya.

And then he cost them promotion...

[JacknOry]

Just now, JoeH said:

And then he cost them promotion...

No, they wouldnt have been in the final if not for him. 

[Dreams of 1995]

Just now, JoeH said:

And then he cost them promotion...

He also got them in that position for the first time in decades

[Guest]

Just now, JacknOry said:

No, they wouldnt have been in the final if not for him. 

Maybe. I guess that's the balancing act. A goalkeeper who I won't deny can save a shot, his reflexes are impressive, but also a goalkeeper full of big time errors, which makes him unusable for me.

I still advocate for David Marshall. Experience between the sticks. Someone steady who isn't throwing goals in our own net every three games.

[JacknOry]

Have you ever thought it might be you Joe? I did ask you to look at the way you speak to people the other day in your last rant. You think your opinion is the be all and end all and cannot stomach people disagreeing.

Anyway, will leave it there as busy at work and do not fancy another few hours of back and forth.

[Guest]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

He also got them in that position for the first time in decades

Not on his own... had a great defence in-front of him with Jansson.

[JacknOry]

Just now, JoeH said:

Not on his own... had a great defence in-front of him with Jansson.

So he didnt lose them the final on his own either? You cannot use the defense to play down his heroics and then lay the blame solely on him for them not getting promoted. 

Edit: Really leaving it here now. Too much to do.

Edited August 5, 2020 by JacknOry

[Guest]

Just now, JacknOry said:

So he didnt lose them the final on his own either? You cannot use the defense to play down his heroics and then lay the blame solely on him for them not getting promoted. 

 

He was solely and completely individually at fault for that first goal, which lost them the final. If that doesn't go in its still anyone's game. He's not however completely responsible over 46 games for every defensive clean sheet. 

[phili]

i think the occasion got to Brentford players. They will be stronger for it next season.

Getting promotion next season is going to be difficult. I can see of those coming down, Norwich and Watford competing for automatic promotion. Brentford being very strong. Then you can guarantee Middlesbrough being in the playoffs. I can see Cardiff and Swansea being back up there and i have a feeling Stoke will be very strong this season. 

We really need to get our transfers to be perfect this season to have any chance of getting into the playoffs.

[JacknOry]

Just now, JoeH said:

He was solely and completely individually at fault for that first goal, which lost them the final. If that doesn't go in its still anyone's game. He's not however completely responsible over 46 games for every defensive clean sheet. 

Ok, after this im closing the browser lol.

In the same way that his 'individual penalty' save got them to the final? 

Brentford conceded two goals, conceding the first is not necessarily why they lost is it? They lost the match 2-1, hence the team failed. 

The 'team' lost, you could blame their strikers for not scoring prior to Fulham going ahead or their midfield for not stopping Cairney and Reed from controlling it or their manager for not being bold enough. When a GK makes a mistake it can lead to a goal but it is the TEAMS contribution throughout the entire match the determines the result. 

 

[1864roverite]

Unless you are premier league then the whole face of football transfers and money has changed forever. The days of huge wages are over the days of asking big fees for overrated players are over. Now is the time we will see managers in the EFL warm their wages wheeling and dealing us the way forward freebies and loans. If you have a diamond then it is the way of the football that they will be sold to the highest bidder. Rovers are a selling club we have to get used to it. So if we see a player sold it’s good business and the model we will have to get used to!

[HowieFive0]

36 minutes ago, phili said:

That's his last season with us and our poor defence and coaching department.

A good goalkeeping coach, good defenders infront of him and a manager who believes in him and doesn't critize him and we are seeing what a good keeper he can be. 

The goalkeeping coach should take some of the blame then for the goal last night. Obviously all season Rayas starting position on set pieces has been similar and Fulham coaches highlighted this to their players prior to the game (Cairney confirmed this in his interview) and Parker was seen telling Bryan to hit that near post in his convo just prior to taking the free kick.

[Dreams of 1995]

Just now, JoeH said:

He was solely and completely individually at fault for that first goal, which lost them the final. If that doesn't go in its still anyone's game. He's not however completely responsible over 46 games for every defensive clean sheet. 

??

If he is in goal then he is responsible for those clean sheets, as are the defenders. Likewise when they concede there is responsibility attached to the defenders too.

 

[Richard Oakley]

35 minutes ago, tomphil said:

There's still external debt in the form of overdraft that will be heading towards its limit no doubt. I'm pretty sure that's be pinned on the club and its assets so that's the thing to watch.  Probably around 15 million and it'll have interest and charges so that for me is what those in Ewood will want to keep under control.

The owners pay enough in to cover wages etc but not sure they'd want to wipe that off or a large lump of it.  Doesn't seem to work like that with them.

As for Pr Mani well like a few others he conveniently chooses to omit the last time something like this happened. For whatever reason Vs turned the taps off at the wrong time, or down to a trickle at least. The club had to borrow left right and center to keep going then the sales began. Of course by then we ended up under embargo so it couldn't be reinvested so for a spell we signing utter dross off the usual client lists. Still wracked up a million or more in agents fees though, they didn't go hungry. No cash buys for several years until Williams for a few hundred grand.  As we know all that led to relegation.

These circumstances are odd now though we've gone from looking in a reasonably healthy position compared to any other time under their ownership.  To possibly a very precarious one but the club has plenty assets now, just a question of when not if the auction starts.

Last time Venkys turned the tap off they told us they wanted the club to be self-sustaining. This time, nothing. Staff are still owed the wages they deferred, which means Venkys haven't covered wages.

At the start of our 2019 financial year, we owed £15m to the bank. I think all the losses in that financial year were added to the bank overdraft.When Barclays were owed that amount of money, they had to start the liquidation process to get their money back.The overdraft was not secured to any assets then and I doubt it is this time. RoverCanada and Vinjay keep a closer eye on things than I do. I'm guessing, going on gut feeling. The accounts show a steady rise year on year under Venkys for trade creditors.

'Mercer quoted an article in which Mowbray said we didn't have to sell any of our star men, but everyone else could be sold.That depends on who Mowbray classes as our starmen. Anyone who is sold would have to be replaced as well, if that would leave us below our approved squad size (I'm assuming Mowbray knows that). If we're selling to pay off people,how much is going to be left over to bring in new players?

It's been posted that the club is seeking a relaxation of FFP. Aside from telling us we're going to be in breach of it again, it could signify another investor prepared to put sizeable funds into the club.Now, I think I'm clutching at straws.

[roversfan99]

51 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Absolutely. I wouldn't claim data is the only factor in determining a players ability. I don't think David Raya was good enough in 2018/19 because of the data AND my own personal viewing of him. As you say, data can't pick up certain factors, and that's always going to be the case. I don't deny that.

In fairness, you suggested that Wharton was better than Goode, presumably based solely on data. All that being said, Goode cleaned up on all the player of the season awards down at Northampton. Surely that is a better indicator on who is the better player at the moment? Not that I suggest signing him.

Data is of very little use on its own, especially comparing 2 teams, or even less so across 2 different leagues or seasons.

Say even if you compared Dillon Phillips who keeps getting mentioned and Christian Walton. You might see Phillips has played far more long balls and saved more shots. That will partly because Charlton will have far different tactics and inferior players in front will lead to shots being faced far more frequently and probably from closer in. Comparing chalk and cheese already really.

The main "data" of use is whether attacking players have many goals or assists. That is of use of course.

[tomphil]

16 minutes ago, Richard Oakley said:

Last time Venkys turned the tap off they told us they wanted the club to be self-sustaining. This time, nothing. Staff are still owed the wages they deferred, which means Venkys haven't covered wages.

At the start of our 2019 financial year, we owed £15m to the bank. I think all the losses in that financial year were added to the bank overdraft.When Barclays were owed that amount of money, they had to start the liquidation process to get their money back.The overdraft was not secured to any assets then and I doubt it is this time. RoverCanada and Vinjay keep a closer eye on things than I do. I'm guessing, going on gut feeling. The accounts show a steady rise year on year under Venkys for trade creditors.

'Mercer quoted an article in which Mowbray said we didn't have to sell any of our star men, but everyone else could be sold.That depends on who Mowbray classes as our starmen. Anyone who is sold would have to be replaced as well, if that would leave us below our approved squad size (I'm assuming Mowbray knows that). If we're selling to pay off people,how much is going to be left over to bring in new players?

It's been posted that the club is seeking a relaxation of FFP. Aside from telling us we're going to be in breach of it again, it could signify another investor prepared to put sizeable funds into the club.Now, I think I'm clutching at straws.

Who would get into bed besides Venkys though and who would they allow ?  Nobody except close pals of theirs i'd imagine.

Who puts the money in for these investment type signings though would be of interest to me .

As for wages i think they more or less guarantee to cover the playing side but club staff in Blackburn might come out of different takings. Not sure it's all one big pot but may be wrong.

Edited August 5, 2020 by tomphil

[RoversClitheroe]

1 hour ago, phili said:

Can we all agree, 10-15 years ago, Raya would never have made a first team appearance with us, with the strength of goalkeepers we used to have. I think he is probably of the same level as Alan Fettis or John Filan and shows how far we have fallen under Venky's.

I mean we were in the premier League with Friedel so you'd hope so....