Summer Transfer Window

[Mercer]

1 minute ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Jamie Vardy came up that way also but I suspect he's got more desire and pure will to win than Armstrong, There's no lost causes with Vardy.

Think Vardy is a far more intelligent and technically better footballer.

Sees a picture, takes up great positions, time his runs and has a surprisingly very good first touch.

[tomphil]

He's a throwback Vardy to the 90's / 00's goal poachers, another dying breed. Similar to Kevin Gallagher imo.

[CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber]

With the current situation of a likely global recession, whilst being beholden to the chicken folk paying at least some interest in their 'investment', and our squad needing funds to patch up some glaring holes, combined with a manager that has an average at best transfer record; I reckon this thread could reach new levels of fury this summer. 

Edited July 19, 2020 by CrouchingNunhiddenCucumber

[Stuart]

20 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

@Scotland1 Are you comparing Mowbray to Kean? cos you are you are well out of order for doing so?

Let’s look at it objectively. And it is impossible to compare their Championship records as Kean’s limited stats are better but had a better squad.

Similarities:

- Mowbray and Kean (we are told) come from the same agency stock

- They are both happy to work for Venkys despite the apparent conditions

- Both have been in charge when we were relegated

- Both are unable to get the best out of their players

- Both make excuses for failure and are never themselves culpable

- Both have stayed/stay beyond the time they would have been allowed at any other club

- Fanbase split and in both cases there were fans believing we would only end up with a worse manager so we shouldn’t change - even pointing to Kean’s start to the championship season.

 

Differences:

- Managerial experience in the UK (credibility)

- Kean’s tenure was at the height of anti-Venkys feeling (possibly one of the causes of it) and fans cared enough to take a stand while Mowbray’s time is at the height of fan apathy (possibly one of the causes of it) and fans are turning away in droves

- Perception of them as human beings / motives

Some subjective musings:

If we are to go along with the “there’s no point in changing” argument (as there has been no decent argument for keeping him based on his own record/performances/direction) then we have to accept the club is still just as rotten as when Kean was here and the current incumbent must be satisfied working in such conditions.

The only plus for Mowbray (and by association Waggott) is that we will now finish higher than we did last season.

60pts (15th) vs 63-66pts (8th - 12th)

On the one hand that could be called “progress” but as we have now just ended the FFP cycle (despite the COVID-19 deferral) and we are told the cupboard is bare (Mowbray blew all of the money on two players) then the counter-argument is that 8th is the absolute peak before the next rebuild. But some may say that Mowbray’s first year was promotion from League One, so the decision then is, do we believe that over the next three year cycle, starting with a championship platform, he will fare better? My view, based on his record and his stubborn misuse of players out of position and rotation and transfer policy is ‘no’ but others may say he is building for the future. I guess the acid test is whether he keeps our key players this Summer and shores up our goalkeeper and defence. Based on what happened last Summer and the lack of any change in January I don’t believe he will but that is the question for me.

The next three years then:

- Will Venkys keep footing the bills for the duration - let alone fund a promotion push?

- Will Mowbray tell them to keep their powder dry?

- Will we have any fans left if we are faced with watching this brand of football and mediocre WDL results for another three years?

- Will it actually result in promotion?

Clearly he is going to be given yet another transfer window so it will be interesting to see what happens. Even more telling will be if anything changes above Mowbray. If Venkys were given a target of reaching the play-offs and 70 points then objectively this is failure - is anyone culpable? Will we see a John Jensen style sacrifice in the coaching staff?

The key difference between the Kean and Mowbray eras is that most fans have reached a point where they feel there is absolutely nothing they can do but watch, while not necessarily buying a ticket to do so.

We all love the club but right now we have the owners, board and manager we deserve. If more people had stuck together to oust Kean while we were in the PL, maybe if the FF had been united in front of Balaji then we might be sat where Burnley are instead of heading down the Bolton Road.

[Admiral Nelsen]

2 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Let’s look at it objectively. And it is impossible to compare their Championship records as Kean’s limited stats are better but had a better squad.

Similarities:

- Mowbray and Kean (we are told) come from the same agency stock

- They are both happy to work for Venkys despite the apparent conditions

- Both have been in charge when we were relegated

- Both are unable to get the best out of their players

- Both make excuses for failure and are never themselves culpable

- Both have stayed/stay beyond the time they would have been allowed at any other club

- Fanbase split and in both cases there were fans believing we would only end up with a worse manager so we shouldn’t change - even pointing to Kean’s start to the championship season.

 

Quite hard to reconcile those statements with looking at it objectively when there's plenty of room to disagree. 

Even if we were to accept the basic principle of those statements as true, the difference in scale between the two is enormous. There's plenty of room to criticise Mowbray and even want shut of him without throwing around ridiculous comparisons to Kean. 

[Stuart]

4 minutes ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

Quite hard to reconcile those statements with looking at it objectively when there's plenty of room to disagree. 

Even if we were to accept the basic principle of those statements as true, the difference in scale between the two is enormous. There's plenty of room to criticise Mowbray and even want shut of him without throwing around ridiculous comparisons to Kean. 

Simply looking at their similarities.

I notice you removed the most damning ones.

[1864roverite]

Venkys have to find the club there is no doubt about their intentions in respect of that. The academy will be funded to the tune of £2m and I suspect the dead wood will bring quite a big savings wage wise. I think we will see the end of Mulgrew, Bennett, Samuel, Hart, Smallwood and possibly Downing. Other movers might include Graham which as I said could give a huge saving wage wise.

This team needs building around Lenihan.

We need to get an experienced goalkeeper or blood one of the youngsters to give him a chance to prove his worth.

We need a plan a,b,c,d and all the way to Z!

[DE.]

Comparisons between TM and Kean are weak at best. For all Mowbray's faults he is an actual manager rather than a coach pretending to be in charge. Agency links are what they are but Kean was a complete and utter fraud as a manager, whereas Mowbray is just one of many average managers with flaws he is unable and/or unwilling to change. Even on his worst day TM is a better manager than Kean could ever hope to be. 

Also unlike Kean I don't sense any outright deceit from Mowbray, only a stubbornness and questionable ethos at times when it comes to tactics and team selection. The only time I think Mowbray has not been entirely truthful is the 'defenders are coming' debacle where something seems to have prevented him from fulfilling that promise, but we never learned whether it was direct Venky mandate or other issues. Two loans towards the end of the window was not what anybody was hoping for and one of those loans only lasted a month or so before being injured for the rest of the season. Granted there was also the Mulgrew situation which was odd to say the least, and I still don't think we've heard the truth about that. By and large though I think Mowbray is honest with the fans about most things, even if at times very frustrating to listen to, whereas Kean came up with a new lie every time he was interviewed - to the point where we had the classic #SteveKeanLies trend on Twitter for a week or so.

[Admiral Nelsen]

17 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Simply looking at their similarities.

I notice you removed the most damning ones.

There are legitimate criticisms, and I accept that not everyone is going to have the same positive view of the manager as I do. 

I was pointing out that even if were to accept those similarities to be true (clearly not objective, but putting that aside) there's a world of difference between whatever degree of under-performance that we might arguably be going through presently and the unmitigated catastrophe of the Kean years. 

If I have shares in a company and they lose value, it's very easy for me to complain and apportion blame without comparing it to the Wall Street Crash. 

[K-Hod]

There are better managers out there than Tony Mowbray, but Steve Kean is basically the anti christ where our club is concerned.
I honestly think any comparisons are a gigantic stretch. Mowbray has his flaws and I regularly point them out, but Kean is in a different universe.

[chaddyrovers]

45 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Similarities:

- Mowbray and Kean (we are told) come from the same agency stock

- They are both happy to work for Venkys despite the apparent conditions

- Both have been in charge when we were relegated

- Both are unable to get the best out of their players

- Both make excuses for failure and are never themselves culpable

- Both have stayed/stay beyond the time they would have been allowed at any other club

- Fanbase split and in both cases there were fans believing we would only end up with a worse manager so we shouldn’t change - even pointing to Kean’s start to the championship season.

Well we all know who Kean agent was Stuart so don't start rewriting History. The last 4 four managers have apparently from the same agency. 

What are these apparent conditions Stuart that these managers have to work in? 

Kean took us down in a full season in charge whilst Mowbray came in February. But Mowbray got us back up at the 1st attempt whilst Kean resigned in September in our 1st season in Championship. Funny enough his last game was lost to Tony Mowbray Boro team at Ewood Park on Friday 21st September. 

Mowbray has failed to get his best out of their players? have you forget Dack's scoring record since joining the club, Or Armstrong having his best scoring record since his days at Coventry on loan again under Mowbray. Or that the fact that He has got the best out of Lenihan and Travis this season and are now part of our best players. 

Mowbray has stay beyond his time that would have allowed at other club? Outrageous statement to me when you have no idea what others owners have done. So Stuart please can explain how you can come to make such a statement? 

Fanbase split? The fanbase might be split on here but if you read other social media sites plenty of support for Mowbray out there. Also I would point to @K-Hod post on fanbase support towards Mowbray. Have you heard any chants for Mowbray to be sack at the games you attended this season? You sit hear the dugout in the family stand so you would hear these chants? have they been any? 

1 hour ago, Stuart said:

The next three years then:

- Will Venkys keep footing the bills for the duration - let alone fund a promotion push?

- Will Mowbray tell them to keep their powder dry?

- Will we have any fans left if we are faced with watching this brand of football and mediocre WDL results for another three years?

- 

Clearly he is going to be given yet another transfer window so it will be interesting to see what happens. Even more telling will be if anything changes above Mowbray. If Venkys were given a target of reaching the play-offs and 70 points then objectively this is failure - is anyone culpable? Will we see a John Jensen style sacrifice in the coaching staff?

Venky's have so far footing the bills. So what suggest they wont in the future? 

Mowbray ain't going to them to keep their powder dry but more the owners telling him his budget and Mowbray will get on with it. As Mowbray said yesterday post match interview the owners have to decide how we go forward whether they want to push for promotion by spending to push up into the top 6, or Bring through the young players or balance approach where we bring through our talented players and sign few players. Mowbray has said he has different transfer budget list of players we can sign so we will see. 

on Fans, they have to make their own decisions. Will you still be there Stuart supporting the club in 3 years time? 

Who says the Owners target was reaching the playoffs? Do you know this as fact? or was the owners looking for challenging for a playoff place and will they look at Dack injury costing us a place in that top 6 as a major factor like other posters have suggested like myself. 

Mowbray isn't Steve Kean type to throw his staff under the bus like he did. Do you think Mowbray would throw his staff under the bus? 

1 hour ago, Stuart said:

If more people had stuck together to oust Kean while we were in the PL, maybe if the FF had been united in front of Balaji

The fans forum have been united in front of Balaji? you mean the trip to India which some members spoke to Balaji about Kean's future? 

 

 

[Stuart]

Amazing stuff  

[neophox]

1 hour ago, Stuart said:

Let’s look at it objectively. And it is impossible to compare their Championship records as Kean’s limited stats are better but had a better squad.

Similarities:

- Mowbray and Kean (we are told) come from the same agency stock

- They are both happy to work for Venkys despite the apparent conditions

- Both have been in charge when we were relegated

- Both are unable to get the best out of their players

- Both make excuses for failure and are never themselves culpable

- Both have stayed/stay beyond the time they would have been allowed at any other club

- Fanbase split and in both cases there were fans believing we would only end up with a worse manager so we shouldn’t change - even pointing to Kean’s start to the championship season.

 

Differences:

- Managerial experience in the UK (credibility)

- Kean’s tenure was at the height of anti-Venkys feeling (possibly one of the causes of it) and fans cared enough to take a stand while Mowbray’s time is at the height of fan apathy (possibly one of the causes of it) and fans are turning away in droves

- Perception of them as human beings / motives

Some subjective musings:

If we are to go along with the “there’s no point in changing” argument (as there has been no decent argument for keeping him based on his own record/performances/direction) then we have to accept the club is still just as rotten as when Kean was here and the current incumbent must be satisfied working in such conditions.

The only plus for Mowbray (and by association Waggott) is that we will now finish higher than we did last season.

60pts (15th) vs 63-66pts (8th - 12th)

On the one hand that could be called “progress” but as we have now just ended the FFP cycle (despite the COVID-19 deferral) and we are told the cupboard is bare (Mowbray blew all of the money on two players) then the counter-argument is that 8th is the absolute peak before the next rebuild. But some may say that Mowbray’s first year was promotion from League One, so the decision then is, do we believe that over the next three year cycle, starting with a championship platform, he will fare better? My view, based on his record and his stubborn misuse of players out of position and rotation and transfer policy is ‘no’ but others may say he is building for the future. I guess the acid test is whether he keeps our key players this Summer and shores up our goalkeeper and defence. Based on what happened last Summer and the lack of any change in January I don’t believe he will but that is the question for me.

The next three years then:

- Will Venkys keep footing the bills for the duration - let alone fund a promotion push?

- Will Mowbray tell them to keep their powder dry?

- Will we have any fans left if we are faced with watching this brand of football and mediocre WDL results for another three years?

- Will it actually result in promotion?

Clearly he is going to be given yet another transfer window so it will be interesting to see what happens. Even more telling will be if anything changes above Mowbray. If Venkys were given a target of reaching the play-offs and 70 points then objectively this is failure - is anyone culpable? Will we see a John Jensen style sacrifice in the coaching staff?

The key difference between the Kean and Mowbray eras is that most fans have reached a point where they feel there is absolutely nothing they can do but watch, while not necessarily buying a ticket to do so.

We all love the club but right now we have the owners, board and manager we deserve. If more people had stuck together to oust Kean while we were in the PL, maybe if the FF had been united in front of Balaji then we might be sat where Burnley are instead of heading down the Bolton Road.

Compare Kean to Mowbray? 

Mowbray far better but would had like Jokanovic here. 

We could have been were Bolton will be next season so it could easily been worse. 

Edited July 19, 2020 by neophox

[Armchair supporter supremo]

We need an entire new backline and goalkeeper and they need to be solid, determined, experienced players if the aim is to genuinely get right into the play off spots, other than that I think the squad has more than enough attacking players good enough to see most teams off in this league. 

[Stuart]

4 minutes ago, neophox said:

Compare Kean to Mowbray? 

Mowbray far better but would had like Jokanovic here. 

We could have been were Bolton will be next season so it could easily been worse. 

We could yet still be where Bolton are. If anything it seems inevitable. Venkys won’t sell so administration is almost a certainty at some point.

If you take away how odious Kean was and the circumstances under which he first got the job then it is possible to make some comparisons. Especially if we are to believe that Mowbray is from the same agent stock - which suggests that our club remains a closed shop.

In terms of personality and credibility (to a man) there is of course no comparison but it’s interesting to have a look. For me, the parallels are closer with Bowyer and Mowbray than with Kean. I don’t hate people but I despise that man with every fibre.

By comparison, Mowbray is just a stubborn bloke who is too loyal to low ability but good attitude players, but who is answerable to nobody.

Put it this way, either all of our managers under Venkys are just as bad as each other, Kean and Mowbray included... or we should be able to expect better as the next one.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

3 hours ago, tomphil said:

He's a throwback Vardy to the 90's / 00's goal poachers, another dying breed. Similar to Kevin Gallagher imo.

It might be before your time but Rochdale had a similar player to Vardy in a lad called Alan Taylor. He'd been at PNE as a kid and got let go. He ended up playing at Morecambe in non league.  Rochdale took a gamble on him and before long the scouts from bigger clubs were watching him. West Ham jumped in and paid a decent fee for him as one for the future. He was thrown in to FA Cup quarter final at Arsenal because some senior players were injured and he scored both goals in a 2-0 win. He scored both goals in the semi final and he also got both goals in the final ! Earlier in the season I'd been watching him running around the mud of Spotland in the old fourth division, now he's running around Wembley with the cup. Rags to riches

He failed to thrive after that for much longer unfortunately. He was very quick like Vardy and a series of injuries robbed him of the pace he relied on. He ended up having a spell at the dingledome.

Edited July 19, 2020 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[tomphil]

2 hours ago, 1864roverite said:

Venkys have to find the club there is no doubt about their intentions in respect of that. The academy will be funded to the tune of £2m and I suspect the dead wood will bring quite a big savings wage wise. I think we will see the end of Mulgrew, Bennett, Samuel, Hart, Smallwood and possibly Downing. Other movers might include Graham which as I said could give a huge saving wage wise.

This team needs building around Lenihan.

We need to get an experienced goalkeeper or blood one of the youngsters to give him a chance to prove his worth.

We need a plan a,b,c,d and all the way to Z!

I'd settle for mid table again if this was the case as it would genuinely be being rebuilt so maybe a step back to take a few forwards in future seasons.  As long as they combined it with a more energetic positive brand of football and mindset.

[LDRover]

I don't think we have any players that will be poached by Premier League teams, I'd be wary of the bigger Championship clubs though. 

I don't rate Armstrong as highly as some but he has improved markedly over the 2nd half of the season, there will be clubs interested in him. Lenihan is young but now experienced at this level, I'd be surprised if he's not courted and Nyambe's physicality could lead to a cheeky bid.

I think Travis still has a lot to learn and his passing can be shocking on occasions, however, his attitude and will to win are spot on. I just hope he continues to progress here next season.

As for incomings, well we'll be bringing in 5 or 6 Europeans won't we?

[Bigdoggsteel]

54 minutes ago, Armchair supporter supremo said:

We need an entire new backline and goalkeeper and they need to be solid, determined, experienced players if the aim is to genuinely get right into the play off spots, other than that I think the squad has more than enough attacking players good enough to see most teams off in this league. 

A whole new backline? Nyambe and Lenihan? 

[DE.]

14 minutes ago, LDRover said:

Lenihan is young but now experienced at this level,

To be honest at 26 I don't think we can call Lenihan a youngster anymore. He should be entering the prime of his career at this point. By and large he's a solid Championship defender but at this point that is probably his limit. His best chance of playing in the PL is probably being promoted with a Championship club. 

[JacknOry]

Arma has finally shown that he can score a good amount of goals at this level. Centrally too, so you would imagine that he will have suitors. 

Not sure how he and Dack would work in a similar way to Dack and DG up front though. Dacks injury helped him because he would usually be wide.

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, Stuart said:

Amazing stuff  

what a great response Stuart. No answers to any those specific questions ask? 

[Fraserkirky]

GK - New/Hilton

RB - Nyambe/JRC

RCD - New/Carter

LCD - Lenihan/New

LB - New/Bell

RCM -Travis/Buckley

CM - New/Evans

LCM - Rothwell/Davenport

Trequartisa - Dack/Holtby

Striker - New/Gallagher

Striker- Armstrong/Brereton 

Utility/Squad - Bennett, Wharton, Williams, Vale, Chapman

Ins: GK, 2xCentre Backs, Left Back, Defensive Midfielder, Striker

Outs: Graham, Samuel, Smallwood, Leutweiler, Hart, Mulgrew, Johnson, Thompson, Tosin, Walton

This how I see it, 10 out, 6 in and use youth players to fill out squad. 
 

 

 

 

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, Stuart said:

Venkys won’t sell so administration is almost a certainty at some point.

Why administration is almost a certainly? 

why do Venkys get out of that? 

[Rover8T4]

13 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Why administration is almost a certainly? 

why do Venkys get out of that

All debt is owed to the owners so by putting themselves into administration is pointless, players will be let go, Brentford have proved by selling your assets doesn't always end bad, Recruitment needs to be right

Edited July 19, 2020 by Jlee1984