Mowbray: Stay or Go - A Poll

[roversfan99]

5 minutes ago, tomphil said:

I don't recall many slagging off the Armstrong signing or fee. It was more a case of 14 million spent on forwards and nothing on the backline that had people's backs up.

Armstrong was a bargain and TM has done well with him. That's in his plus column.

Thing there though is he had goalscoring pedigree in lge 1 and he had pace. There were qualities there for all to see but he was still young. We also had a good look at him and signed him straight off.

To be fair, well into this season most were calling for him to be dropped, he hadnt scored or assisted many in the Championship and was often quite lazy. Now he has really kicked on.

[JacknOry]

At least there was something to hang on to with AA. He had previously notched 20+(?) goals in L1 under TM and had lightning pace. The only question was whether he could step that up to Championship level. Previous loans to Champs clubs suggested otherwise but the lad was/is still young. It seemed a perfectly reasonable gamble to take the kid in permanently for a couple mil. 

As we know now, it is a gamble that should pay off.14 goals is it so far this season? Decent chance of getting close to 20? Players that notch those sort of numbers in this league start to attract admirers, especially those with age on their side which represents the potential for increased sell-on potential.

On the flip side we spent 7 million quid on BB and had nothing but a short highlight reel to hold on to. Younger admittedly, and still with the chance to change our minds but he hasnever scored goals anywhere, let alone consistently at any level.   

[K-Hod]

League one fodder?? This re writing of history has really plumbed new depths!

[tomphil]

43 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

To be fair, well into this season most were calling for him to be dropped, he hadnt scored or assisted many in the Championship and was often quite lazy. Now he has really kicked on.

He definitely seemed to get complacent early doors. He was being picked all the time despite poor form which doesn't help. Neither did sticking up top on his own and hoofing it.

Mowbray seems to have sussed how to get the best out of him. 

[Miller11]

League one fodder? 
I’ve also seen the job Mowbray has done described as “stabilising us when we were in a tailspin on our way to league 2”

This revisionist history is appalling. And the ever more popular notion that we have “found our level” and are “about where we should be” is a disgrace to the legacy and memory of Jack Walker.

 

 

[tomphil]

Once Coyle walked through the door we became relegation fodder had Lambert stayed we wouldn't have been.  It wouldn't have been great but i reckon he'd have ground out a mid/lower mid finish.

[OldEwoodBlue]

Just imagine.... paying agent fees to Craig for Lambert... That didn't work out very well, he wanted money to spend.... "who else you got?"

Pay more agent fees to Craig for Coyle....oh the nasty fans didn't like him and keep talking about Suhail.... "who else you got?"

Pay more agent fees to Craig for Mowbray....

The Suhail and "Craig" show, washing season ticket money since 2010.

[K-Hod]

8 minutes ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

Just imagine.... paying agent fees to Craig for Lambert... That didn't work out very well, he wanted money to spend.... "who else you got?"

Pay more agent fees to Craig for Coyle....oh the nasty fans didn't like him and keep talking about Suhail.... "who else you got?"

Pay more agent fees to Craig for Mowbray....

The Suhail and "Craig" show, washing season ticket money since 2010.

Craig?

[OldEwoodBlue]

Just now, K-Hod said:

Craig?

Honeyman

[Amo]

3 hours ago, rovers11 said:

However that progress has to continue next season. 

It's always tomorrow. The same excuses were trotted out for Bowyer. Even when it was blindingly obvious he was a bottler who couldn't break that glass ceiling into the top six, some fans still wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. "Next season! Next season will be the one!" We blew our best shot of going up by sticking with him too long.

Edited July 8, 2020 by Amo

[Paul Mani]

It’s thought provoking...

Main positive...

He’s done a good job overall in reversing our ‘basket case club’ image with a steady hand. We’ll likely finish on more points this season than last. An accumulation of more points this season, in context with losing Dack at Christmas would without doubt show that the team has made positive progress.

I also like the way our young players are being integrated into the team.

Main negative...

The £11m spent on Brereton and Gally hangs heavily around Mowbrays neck. If those two were chipping in with 10 goals each this season we’d be sat comfortably in the top 6 now (even without Dack). Mowbray must know that.

Imo those goals (or lack of) are the main reason we can’t put sides away who are compact and happy to defend for their lives. Like Barnsley and Wigan.

My feeling is that he has three games to improve on last seasons points tally. If he can’t do that then he should face the reality of being replaced. 
 

I fully expect TM to be in place next season when I think will be his biggest ever challenge at Rovers. By definition of the word ‘progress’ Rovers must basically spend next season in the top 6. That’s going to be a big ask on our budget but imo the manager lives and dies by it.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Paul Mani

[Stuart]

Just now, Paul Mani said:

It’s thought provoking...

Main positives...

He’s done a good job overall in reversing our ‘basket case club’ image with a steady hand. We’ll likely finish on more points this season than last. An accumulation of more points this season, in context with losing Dack at Christmas would without doubt show that the team has made positive progress.

I also like the way our young players are being integrated into the team.

Main negative...

The £11m spent on Brereton and Gally hangs heavily around Mowbrays neck. If those two were chipping in with 10 goals each this season we’d be sat comfortably in the top 6 now (even without Dack). Mowbray must know that.

Imo those goals (or lack of) are the main reason we can’t put sides away who are compact and happy to defend for their lives. Like Barnsley and Wigan.

My feeling is that he has three games to improve on last seasons points tally. If he can’t do that then he should face the reality of being replaced. 
 

I fully expect TM to be in place next season when I think will be his biggest ever challenge at Rovers. By definition of the word ‘progress’ Rovers must basically spend next season in the top 6. That’s going to be a big ask on our budget but imo the manager lives and dies by it.

You don’t think our lack of goalkeeper and shipping goals - 2 even in a game we won - is one of our main negatives too?

Our awful tactics?

Persevering with playing players out of position game after game?

And the root cause of both that and your main negative is...?

[Paul Mani]

Just now, Stuart said:

You don’t think our lack of goalkeeper and shipping goals - 2 even in a game we won - is one of our main negatives too? Pre COVid I thought Walton had done well overall (haven’t we had record clean sheets?)

Our awful tactics? The awful tactics that will likely lead us to a higher points tally, more clean sheets and more away wins than before?

Persevering with playing players out of position game after game? Again a case of opinion (Gallagher and Brereton) but in the main due to injuries surely? 

And the root cause of both that and your main negative is...? Tony Mowbray...who then by definition is the root cause of all the positives too right?

Just opinions Stuart. Above I’ve put potential counter arguments to all your points.

There are lots of positives and negatives that can be talked about and debated.

The ones I mentioned are the ones I feel are most relevant. Life would be dull if we all felt the same.

[Stuart]

5 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Just opinions Stuart. Above I’ve put potential counter arguments to all your points.

There are lots of positives and negatives that can be talked about and debated.

The ones I mentioned are the ones I feel are most relevant. Life would be dull if we all felt the same.

The manager is responsible for everything. That’s why it is such a difficult and short term job.

Sadly the positives (plural?) you mention are far outweighed by the negatives.

At any other club, Mowbray would have been already replaced by now. Instead we are now his longest ever managerial gig and he is the longest serving manager in the division.

[Mattyblue]

Walton was poor to begin with, improved in the winter, has been even poorer since lockdown.

Apart from Steele, I can’t remember a Rovers keeper gifting so many goals in a season. We can’t make this mistake again in such an important position (or perhaps don’t sell your keeper for F all in the future)

‘He’ll be number 1 for Brighton next season’, indeed 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Mattyblue

[arbitro]

1 hour ago, Paul Mani said:

It’s thought provoking...

Main positive...

He’s done a good job overall in reversing our ‘basket case club’ image with a steady hand. We’ll likely finish on more points this season than last. An accumulation of more points this season, in context with losing Dack at Christmas would without doubt show that the team has made positive progress.

I also like the way our young players are being integrated into the team.

Main negative...

The £11m spent on Brereton and Gally hangs heavily around Mowbrays neck. If those two were chipping in with 10 goals each this season we’d be sat comfortably in the top 6 now (even without Dack). Mowbray must know that.

Imo those goals (or lack of) are the main reason we can’t put sides away who are compact and happy to defend for their lives. Like Barnsley and Wigan.

My feeling is that he has three games to improve on last seasons points tally. If he can’t do that then he should face the reality of being replaced. 
 

I fully expect TM to be in place next season when I think will be his biggest ever challenge at Rovers. By definition of the word ‘progress’ Rovers must basically spend next season in the top 6. That’s going to be a big ask on our budget but imo the manager lives and dies by it.

The main negative for me has been that we have dropped 25 points from winning positions. Losing leads has been a recurring theme under Mowbray.

[tomphil]

40 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Walton was poor to begin with, improved in the winter, has been even poorer since lockdown.

Apart from Steele, I can’t remember a Rovers keeper gifting so many goals in a season. We can’t make this mistake again in such an important position (or perhaps don’t sell your keeper for F all in the future)

‘He’ll be number 1 for Brighton next season’, indeed 

He and Steele are similar but most young keepers at this level seem to be in this era. Raya was sublime at times but could also be ridiculous but i think he'll always have both those traits in his locker. The difference with him seems to be make an absolute howler but bounce straight back from it no dent in his confidence at all.  Likes of Steele and Walton are wobbly all the time, have their little purple patches then return to being wobbly.

A keeper needs to excel at the basics and anything else is a bonus but nowadays it seems the opposite way. This level used to turn out good solid keepers why doesn't it anymore ? 

[Paul Mani]

31 minutes ago, arbitro said:

The main negative for me has been that we have dropped 25 points from winning positions. Losing leads has been a recurring theme under Mowbray.

Agreed. This definitely is a big problem but feels more like a symptom of various things.
 

We’re not resolute enough at times and seem to go into our shell, we don’t kill teams off with the goals our £11m strikers should be scoring but also, that stat is probably skewed by a huge positive which is that we lose so many leads because we start games so positively and often lead within the first 10 minutes against teams who then settle into the game and beat us simply because they are better.

[Paul Mani]

30 minutes ago, tomphil said:

He and Steele are similar but most young keepers at this level seem to be in this era. Raya was sublime at times but could also be ridiculous but i think he'll always have both those traits in his locker. The difference with him seems to be make an absolute howler but bounce straight back from it no dent in his confidence at all.  Likes of Steele and Walton are wobbly all the time, have their little purple patches then return to being wobbly.

A keeper needs to excel at the basics and anything else is a bonus but nowadays it seems the opposite way. This level used to turn out good solid keepers why doesn't it anymore ? 

I think the issue really is based on lack of experience. Young keepers make mistakes. Well most do...

If you want a consistent keeper then the chances are much higher if you go for them in their 30’s.

I don’t think there are any comparisons with Walton and Steele. Imo Walton has lots of good attributes and the potential to be a very good keeper in the Premier League. You can see his quality in those purple patches where he’s a formidable presence, makes great saves Is sound technically and dominates. It’s the consistency he’s lacking. Plus when he’s bad, he’s BAD.

I never ever saw any quality in Steele and I can’t remember him having a purple patch.

Walton has overseen our highest number of clean sheets since we dropped out of the PL. Just saying..

Edited July 9, 2020 by Paul Mani

[RoversClitheroe]

15 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

If the keeper is good - no problem if not ours - eg Henderson with Sheffield United.

Completely disagree.

Sheffield United at least upgraded with the loan signing of Henderson.

We have absolutely downgraded with the loan signing of Walton.

[Mattyblue]

Sorry, you don’t sell your own young keeper full of potential for a pittance, then bring in another young keeper who’s no better (worse) on loan.

Too important a position.

[tomphil]

9 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

I think the issue really is based on lack of experience. Young keepers make mistakes. Well most do...

If you want a consistent keeper then the chances are much higher if you go for them in their 30’s.

I don’t think there are any comparisons with Walton and Steele. Imo Walton has lots of good attributes and the potential to be a very good keeper in the Premier League. You can see his quality in those purple patches where he’s a formidable presence, makes great saves Is sound technically and dominates. It’s the consistency he’s lacking. Plus when he’s bad, he’s BAD.

I never ever saw any quality in Steele and I can’t remember him having a purple patch.

Walton has overseen our highest number of clean sheets since we dropped out of the PL. Just saying..

If you go back and look at Steele you'll find he was ropey when he first arrived but settled down a bit for a period. He was the weakest physical keeper iv'e ever seen down there but seemed to get a bit of strength in his legs and his kicking improved.

Once the GK coach John Keeley departed he seemed to go rapidly backwards again. You'll also note if you paid any attention outside of your own 'i know everything' bubble that Eastwood became decent backup under Keeley. So imo the coaching and the involvement of the coach in recruiting keepers makes a big difference.

As for the clean sheets you also might want to take into account defend as a team which starts from the front so the credit for that needs sharing around surely.  The comparisons with Steele are about him being equally as unreliable for spells as physically they are different. You seem impressed because Walton looks bigger that doesn't make him immune to the same sort of regular rabbit in the headlights moments.

[Paul Mani]

Just now, tomphil said:

If you go back and look at Steele you'll find he was ropey when he first arrived but settled down a bit for a period. He was the weakest physical keeper iv'e ever seen down there but seemed to get a bit of strength in his legs and his kicking improved.

Once the GK coach John Keeley departed he seemed to go rapidly backwards again. You'll also note if you paid any attention outside of your own 'i know everything' bubble that Eastwood became decent backup under Keeley. So imo the coaching and the involvement of the coach in recruiting keepers makes a big difference.

As for the clean sheets you also might want to take into account defend as a team which starts from the front so the credit for that needs sharing around surely.  The comparisons with Steele are about him being equally as unreliable for spells as physically they are different. You seem impressed because Walton looks bigger that doesn't make him immune to the same sort of regular rabbit in the headlights moments.

Just my opinion. No need to suggest that I’m pertaining to know more than you. I thought this board was for us to debate.

I have watched both keepers and I do not see the link. Steele was consistently poor in every facet of his game. Walton has a lot of quality but lacks consistency.

imo the comparison was lazy.

[Mattyblue]

I wasn’t comparing them as styles of goalkeeper, just they both cost us a load of goals - you know, probably the most important comparison for a ‘goalie’.

[Blue blood]

21 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

I think the issue really is based on lack of experience. Young keepers make mistakes. Well most do...

If you want a consistent keeper then the chances are much higher if you go for them in their 30’s.

I don’t think there are any comparisons with Walton and Steele. Imo Walton has lots of good attributes and the potential to be a very good keeper in the Premier League. You can see his quality in those purple patches where he’s a formidable presence, makes great saves Is sound technically and dominates. It’s the consistency he’s lacking. Plus when he’s bad, he’s BAD.

I never ever saw any quality in Steele and I can’t remember him having a purple patch.

Walton has overseen our highest number of clean sheets since we dropped out of the PL. Just saying..

Agree Steele never had a purple patch but do remember one (maybe 2?) games where he played well for us. Definitely not a patch but shows anyone can have a good day. The odd good day doesn't make a player, consistency does.

The problem is, as you say, when Walton isn't in a purple patch he is horrific. No team can afford that, especially when these account for 60-70% of his performances. Raya may have made errors but nowhere near as many as Walton did. Since the restart alone Walton must take some of the blame for the vast majority of the goals we have conceeded. That's suicidal for a football team, it's giving yourself a handicap. Also even knowing his potential for that must have a huge negative impact on the defence even when he isn't dropping those clangers. I never played at any decent level but even I experience the difference in a team's demeanour depending on if we had a good or dodgy keeper behind us. It totally changed how you would defend. 

I think for me the long and short is that Walton doesn't just make the errors a young keeper makes- he does far worse then that. He regularly makes mistakes and costs goals when they really shouldn't be goals. All young keepers have a few clangers in them, Walton has a shedload. It's going to require huge improvement for him to get to a level we  would want - improving on two thirds of his performances, and significant improvement at that, is not a simple or minor process. That to me shouts out liability and something we should steer well clear of. He can't be classed as anything but an unmitigated disaster. If we had points from just two of the games he has cost us, we would be on course for playoffs. Not that there aren't other reasons for not being in playoffs but you see the point. The man is a hinderance not a help.