Mowbray: Stay or Go - A Poll

[Mashed Potatoes]

17 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Completely disagree.

Sheffield United at least upgraded with the loan signing of Henderson.

We have absolutely downgraded with the loan signing of Walton.

I did say "If the keeper is good". I was referring to the principle of using loanees.

[Blue blood]

10 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Just my opinion. No need to suggest that I’m pertaining to know more than you. I thought this board was for us to debate.

I have watched both keepers and I do not see the link. Steele was consistently poor in every facet of his game. Walton has a lot of quality but lacks consistency.

imo the comparison was lazy.

If you are crap in two thirds of the games you play, then by any definition, a player can not be said to have a lot of quality. 

If you are crap in two thirds of the games you play I'd also say that seems fairly consistent to me, albeit not in a welcome way. 

[Paul Mani]

3 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

Agree Steele never had a purple patch but do remember one (maybe 2?) games where he played well for us. Definitely not a patch but shows anyone can have a good day. The odd good day doesn't make a player, consistency does.

The problem is, as you say, when Walton isn't in a purple patch he is horrific. No team can afford that, especially when these account for 60-70% of his performances. Raya may have made errors but nowhere near as many as Walton did. Since the restart alone Walton must take some of the blame for the vast majority of the goals we have conceeded. That's suicidal for a football team, it's giving yourself a handicap. Also even knowing his potential for that must have a huge negative impact on the defence even when he isn't dropping those clangers. I never played at any decent level but even I experience the difference in a team's demeanour depending on if we had a good or dodgy keeper behind us. It totally changed how you would defend. 

I think for me the long and short is that Walton doesn't just make the errors a young keeper makes- he does far worse then that. He regularly makes mistakes and costs goals when they really shouldn't be goals. All young keepers have a few clangers in them, Walton has a shedload. It's going to require huge improvement for him to get to a level we  would want - improving on two thirds of his performances, and significant improvement at that, is not a simple or minor process. That to me shouts out liability and something we should steer well clear of. He can't be classed as anything but an unmitigated disaster. If we had points from just two of the games he has cost us, we would be on course for playoffs. Not that there aren't other reasons for not being in playoffs but you see the point. The man is a hinderance not a help.  

 

Whilst I respect your opinion I disagree with your point and I believe that you are reacting emotively to the poor performances since his return from COVid.

Im not saying Walton is brilliant but there’s a difference between that and ‘unmitigated disaster’. Sure, he cannot be solely responsible for the most clean sheets, most away wins, etc stats but he is certainly a big part of that progress and a ‘hinderance’ could never have been involved in a process which yielded those results.

As a side issue, some those now pointing to our wonderful defence and ‘defending from the front’ are also the guys saying Mowbray is tactically clueless and made a shit load of bad signings last summer.

Let. That. Sink. In. ?

[tomphil]

21 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Just my opinion. No need to suggest that I’m pertaining to know more than you. I thought this board was for us to debate.

I have watched both keepers and I do not see the link. Steele was consistently poor in every facet of his game. Walton has a lot of quality but lacks consistency.

imo the comparison was lazy.

How can it be lazy we are talking about young keepers trying to make the grade of which both were/are. Steele was 3rd choice at Boro, Walton 4th choice at Brighton, behind......

I'll agree Walton seems to better physical tools than Steele as for me that's where his main problem was. The fact he couldn't reach the halfway line with kicks gave him and the team problems that it wouldn't under a stronger guy.

Other than that you have 2 keepers who are similar in a way that they make too many unforced errors off their own bat. 

As Tim Flowers said being a good keeper there's no secret ingredient  it's all about minimizing the mistakes.

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by tomphil

[tomphil]

5 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Whilst I respect your opinion I disagree with your point and I believe that you are reacting emotively to the poor performances since his return from COVid.

Im not saying Walton is brilliant but there’s a difference between that and ‘unmitigated disaster’. Sure, he cannot be solely responsible for the most clean sheets, most away wins, etc stats but he is certainly a big part of that progress and a ‘hinderance’ could never have been involved in a process which yielded those results.

As a side issue, some those now pointing to our wonderful defence and ‘defending from the front’ are also the guys saying Mowbray is tactically clueless and made a shit load of bad signings last summer.

Let. That. Sink. In. ?

I think the key there Mr Know it all intk ( yeah right )  is we can't keep it up otherwise we'd be successful, no ?

That's the whole point.

[Paul Mani]

3 minutes ago, tomphil said:

How can it be lazy we are talking about young keepers trying to make the grade of which both were/are. Steele was 3rd choice at Boro, Walton 4th choice at Brighton, behind......

I'll agree Walton seems to better physical tools than Steele as for me that's where his main problem was. The fact he couldn't reach the halfway line with kicks gave him and the team problems that it wouldn't under a stronger guy.

Other than that you have 2 keepers who are similar in a way that they make too many unforced errors off their own bat. 

As Tim Flowers said being a good keeper there's no secret ingredient  it's all about minimizing the mistakes.

 

As I said mate. It’s just about opinions. We don’t have to agree.

imo Steele didn’t make unforced errors. He was just simply crap. Which has been proven everywhere he’s been since. He’s poor physically, technically, positionally...the full shebang.

Walton is not poor in any of those departments. He’s just inconsistent. That’s why Brighton believe he will be their number 1 once he’s spent enough time getting in the Championship getting experience.

So yeah, in my opinion it was a lazy comparison. 

[Mattyblue]

Well nobody was comparing them as styles of goalkeeper, so you’ve gone off on your own tangent.

Walton as Brighton first choice? I suppose  they could get relegated at some point.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Mattyblue

[Paul Mani]

1 minute ago, tomphil said:

I think the key there Mr Know it all intk ( yeah right )  is we can't keep it up otherwise we'd be successful, no ?

That's the whole point.

Why can’t he keep it up? We’ll likely get more points this season than we did last season and his job is to do the same again next season. So long as he does that then what’s the problem? 

But seriously, why so bitter? Amazing how many grown men feel the need to get personal because someone doesn’t agree with what they say.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

2 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Well nobody was comparing them as styles of goalkeeper, so you’ve gone off on your own tangent.

Walton as Brighton first choice? I suppose  they could get relegated at some point.

They will be with Walton in goal.

[tomphil]

1 minute ago, Paul Mani said:

As I said mate. It’s just about opinions. We don’t have to agree.

imo Steele didn’t make unforced errors. He was just simply crap. Which has been proven everywhere he’s been since. He’s poor physically, technically, positionally...the full shebang.

Walton is not poor in any of those departments. He’s just inconsistent. That’s why Brighton believe he will be their number 1 once he’s spent enough time getting in the Championship getting experience.

So yeah, in my opinion it was a lazy comparison. 

We've had a long line of novice keepers since Robinson so naturally they are all going to be compared to each other until we actually sign something that is already proven.

Walton are Steele are the most comparable 2 of all that line of novices and Walton is going the same way. Making constant nervous clangers with no crowd or with a crowd isn't a good sign. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 hour ago, arbitro said:

The main negative for me has been that we have dropped 25 points from winning positions. Losing leads has been a recurring theme under Mowbray.

I hate to say this but I'd like to bet that the Dingles have hardly dropped any points from winning positions. If they go 1-0 up they usually go on to win the game. Of course they've got two good defenders at centre half and a really good goalkeeper. As Brian Clough used to say " Nobody can lose you a game quicker than your goalkeeper, so get the best 'keeper you can ".

[K-Hod]

44 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Whilst I respect your opinion I disagree with your point and I believe that you are reacting emotively to the poor performances since his return from COVid.

Im not saying Walton is brilliant but there’s a difference between that and ‘unmitigated disaster’. Sure, he cannot be solely responsible for the most clean sheets, most away wins, etc stats but he is certainly a big part of that progress and a ‘hinderance’ could never have been involved in a process which yielded those results.

As a side issue, some those now pointing to our wonderful defence and ‘defending from the front’ are also the guys saying Mowbray is tactically clueless and made a shit load of bad signings last summer.

Let. That. Sink. In. ?

Can I just ask, who’s pointing to our wonderful defence? How many goals have we conceded recently?!

[47er]

Just now, K-Hod said:

Can I just ask, who’s pointing to our wonderful defence? How many goals have we conceded recently?!

You beat me to it. He's making it up. However those who said Mowbray is tactically clueless and made bad signings (don't remember "shit-loads" though) are alive and well!  

Edited July 9, 2020 by 47er

[Paul Mani]

Just now, K-Hod said:

Can I just ask, who’s pointing to our wonderful defence? How many goals have we conceded recently?!

Well considering we’ve had a record amount of clean sheets but our keeper is shite, then how else are we getting them?

Overall, our defending has been better than last year right? Statistically? 

[Blue blood]

38 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Whilst I respect your opinion I disagree with your point and I believe that you are reacting emotively to the poor performances since his return from COVid.

Im not saying Walton is brilliant but there’s a difference between that and ‘unmitigated disaster’. Sure, he cannot be solely responsible for the most clean sheets, most away wins, etc stats but he is certainly a big part of that progress and a ‘hinderance’ could never have been involved in a process which yielded those results.

Not a reaction to his performances since the start up - although you have to admit these have been shocking. The first half of the season I was a big critic too as he was poor then as well. If anything people were forgetting the poor start he made for us as he picked up from around Christmas time onwards. 

And yes I would say as a signing in such a key position he has been a disaster because two thirds of his performances, not just since the restart - which is revisionism - have been appalling. That to me is the definition of a bad signing. 

And actually as the Wigan and Preston games for two show, one player can undo the good work of the rest as the team as evidenced by these examples. Our good or decent defending was undone by Walton's needless errors. It shows the keeper is in some ways very much in debted to the rest of the team. 

38 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

As a side issue, some those now pointing to our wonderful defence and ‘defending from the front’ are also the guys saying Mowbray is tactically clueless and made a shit load of bad signings last summer.

Let. That. Sink. In. ?

I think if you look people are more saying he makes basic rookie errors that shouldn't be made - like playing players out of position and keeping with underperforming favourites. These are clueless moves. Clearly he isn't a terrible manager - we've lived through Coyle and Kean so we Rovers fans can spot a bad manager - but he does make stupid, needless mistakes that really are basic football 101 principles. To say otherwise and that these aren't clueless moves is a nonsense. Fortunately other players have compensated for this as have some of TMs tactics on occasions, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. You can be an ok manager but make clueless decisions in there. 

As for a load of bad players last summer was 50:50 on good and bad players. Gally and Walton have both been poor. I don't really think there's much debate on this and Johnson has been overall poor too. That's not a great signing ratio and a huge waste of resources and botches in some vital positions. 

[Blue blood]

54 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Whilst I respect your opinion I disagree with your point and I believe that you are reacting emotively to the poor performances since his return from COVid.

Im not saying Walton is brilliant but there’s a difference between that and ‘unmitigated disaster’. Sure, he cannot be solely responsible for the most clean sheets, most away wins, etc stats but he is certainly a big part of that progress and a ‘hinderance’ could never have been involved in a process which yielded those results.

Not a reaction to his performances since the start up - although you have to admit these have been shocking. The first half of the season I was a big critic too as he was poor then as well. If anything people were forgetting the poor start he made for us as he picked up from around Christmas time onwards. 

And yes I would say as a signing in such a key position he has been a disaster because two thirds of his performances, not just since the restart - which is revisionism - have been appalling. That to me is the definition of a bad signing. 

And actually as the Wigan and Preston games for two show, one player can undo the good work of the rest as the team as evidenced by these examples. Our good or decent defending was undone by Walton's needless errors. It shows the keeper is in some ways very much in debted to the rest of the team. 

Quote

As a side issue, some those now pointing to our wonderful defence and ‘defending from the front’ are also the guys saying Mowbray is tactically clueless and made a shit load of bad signings last summer.

Let. That. Sink. In. ?

I think if you look people are more saying he makes basic rookie errors that shouldn't be made - like playing players out of position and keeping with underperforming favourites. These are clueless moves. Clearly he isn't a terrible manager - we've lived through Coyle and Kean so we Rovers fans can spot a bad manager - but he does make stupid, needless mistakes that really are basic football 101 principles. To say otherwise and that these aren't clueless moves is a nonsense. Fortunately other players have compensated for this as have some of TMs tactics on occasions, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. You can be an ok manager but make clueless decisions in there. 

As for a load of bad players last summer was 50:50 on good and bad players. Gally and Walton have both been poor. I don't really think there's much debate on this and Johnson has been overall poor too. That's not a great signing ratio and a huge waste of resources and botches in some vital positions. 

[Paul Mani]

1 minute ago, 47er said:

You beat me to it. He's making it up again!

Haha - so let me ask you this. If 70% in here think the managers shit and needs replacing and the keeper is shit, then how on Earth have we achieved our record of clean sheets when Walton’s played every game and TM picks the team?

Do you hear how ridiculous that sounds? Is there not just the slightest of chances that having dreamt of a play off promotion fairytale ending, that the last three Games (upto Cardiff) have left many upset and emotional.

Take the emotion out of it and it’s very clear. In order to progress you must amass more points than the season before. Sure there are other metrics but assuming we finish higher than last season then we’ve progressed, right.

You can argue this or that and everyone is entitled to their opinion. 

[tomphil]

42 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Why can’t he keep it up? We’ll likely get more points this season than we did last season and his job is to do the same again next season. So long as he does that then what’s the problem? 

But seriously, why so bitter? Amazing how many grown men feel the need to get personal because someone doesn’t agree with what they say.

Now don't go all snowflake again already you know you got to roll with punches on here you throw enough jabs yourself.

You've got rusty on the lockdown mate.

[Mattyblue]

‘You’re all ridiculous...
but err you are entitled to your opinion and I don’t get personal, remember’

Welcome back Paul 

[Paul Mani]

9 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

Not a reaction to his performances since the start up - although you have to admit these have been shocking. The first half of the season I was a big critic too as he was poor then as well. If anything people were forgetting the poor start he made for us as he picked up from around Christmas time onwards. 

And yes I would say as a signing in such a key position he has been a disaster because two thirds of his performances, not just since the restart - which is revisionism - have been appalling. That to me is the definition of a bad signing. 

And actually as the Wigan and Preston games for two show, one player can undo the good work of the rest as the team as evidenced by these examples. Our good or decent defending was undone by Walton's needless errors. It shows the keeper is in some ways very much in debted to the rest of the team. 

I think if you look people are more saying he makes basic rookie errors that shouldn't be made - like playing players out of position and keeping with underperforming favourites. These are clueless moves. Clearly he isn't a terrible manager - we've lived through Coyle and Kean so we Rovers fans can spot a bad manager - but he does make stupid, needless mistakes that really are basic football 101 principles. To say otherwise and that these aren't clueless moves is a nonsense. Fortunately other players have compensated for this as have some of TMs tactics on occasions, but the two aren't mutually exclusive. You can be an ok manager but make clueless decisions in there. 

As for a load of bad players last summer was 50:50 on good and bad players. Gally and Walton have both been poor. I don't really think there's much debate on this and Johnson has been overall poor too. That's not a great signing ratio and a huge waste of resources and botches in some vital positions. 

Like I said. Opinions...Only Gally has failed for me. Downing, Ada, Cunningham class. Johnson has been exactly what I thought and been useful in some games, not in others and I refuse to say that Walton has been a failure, if nothing because he’s been central to our best defensive showing since we dropped out of the PL.

 

[Dreams of 1995]

Cunningham is a leap to "class". He only played a quarter of the season.

Mowbray should be given another season. At the end of the day progress has been made, we are a better team now than last, but the only problem lies in the fact that once again we are forced to have a high turnover of players. Now, we can all blame Mowbray, but name me a season under Venkys where we haven't required such a high turnover of players? Some think the blame lies solely at the managers door but surely that pattern points to another influence. The only consistent in all of this is them.

If Tony Mowbray can find a player of Tosin's class, Walton's class, Downing's class and then somehow afford the two wingers + left back we require this summer than fair play. There'll need to be a few loans again, but these loans need to be tied in quickly, and once again we will be late to the party because we can't decide on any budget until we meet the royalty of Pune.

Lastly, Mowbray needs to admit that Elliott Bennett isn't good enough for this squad. It's criminal he is still being shoe horned in to any position going on the pitch. 

 

[Blue blood]

8 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Like I said. Opinions...Only Gally has failed for me. Downing, Ada, Cunningham class. Johnson has been exactly what I thought and been useful in some games, not in others and I refuse to say that Walton has been a failure, if nothing because he’s been central to our best defensive showing since we dropped out of the PL.

 

Where to start? I get it's opinions but the Walton not being a failure one seems a bit stubborn and illogical. His form for the first part of the season was poor. His form since the restart has been dire. He's dropped significantly more clangers then Raya. How the heck is that not a failure? Teams carry players, that's always been the case. And judging by his performances I think that's the case.

Johnson wasn't brought as a useful in some situations squad player. The fact he has not held down a place and looked poor on a number of occasions, at likely great expense, suggests he has been a failure. 

I get it's opinions but as I have said on other threads opinions aren't sacrosanct and unchallengeable/must be valued - for example if I thought the moon was made of cheese. And whilst football is hugely subjective I struggle to see how a chap performing badly every week from August to November and then since the restart, can be seen as a decent piece of business! 

[DE.]

34 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Well considering we’ve had a record amount of clean sheets but our keeper is shite, then how else are we getting them?

Overall, our defending has been better than last year right? Statistically? 

It was poor last season and it's poor again this season. We've conceded more than the likes of Reading, Wigan and Boro. Improvement required if we have any serious hopes of pushing beyond mid table.

[Amo]

17 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Like I said. Opinions...Only Gally has failed for me. Downing, Ada, Cunningham class. Johnson has been exactly what I thought and been useful in some games, not in others and I refuse to say that Walton has been a failure, if nothing because he’s been central to our best defensive showing since we dropped out of the PL.

 

And Brereton hasn't been a monumental failure?

I think you're being a silly goose.

[Admiral Nelsen]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

Cunningham is a leap to "class". He only played a quarter of the season.

Mowbray should be given another season. At the end of the day progress has been made, we are a better team now than last, but the only problem lies in the fact that once again we are forced to have a high turnover of players. Now, we can all blame Mowbray, but name me a season under Venkys where we haven't required such a high turnover of players? Some think the blame lies solely at the managers door but surely that pattern points to another influence. The only consistent in all of this is them.

If Tony Mowbray can find a player of Tosin's class, Walton's class, Downing's class and then somehow afford the two wingers + left back we require this summer than fair play. There'll need to be a few loans again, but these loans need to be tied in quickly, and once again we will be late to the party because we can't decide on any budget until we meet the royalty of Pune.

Lastly, Mowbray needs to admit that Elliott Bennett isn't good enough for this squad. It's criminal he is still being shoe horned in to any position going on the pitch. 

 

I'm really surprised that this doesn't seem to be a more common view. Even accepting that it's going to be hard for some to get past the money spent on Gally & Brereton, I can't quite fathom how we can be in sacking territory if we're improving. I also think that the difficulties that all clubs will have this summer makes it a very risky time indeed to be chopping and changing, and will give a very short pre-season for a new man to properly introduce his ideas, even assuming that we don't hire another dud like we have in almost every other appointment post Big Sam.

On Bennett, don't think there's any point trying to hide that he hasn't had a good season, but equally I'm not at all convinced that he plays when we have anything like a fully fit squad.