Mowbray: Stay or Go - A Poll

[Mercer]

41 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

It can, but more properly it ought to be the foundations on which to build success.

Now is that likely under Venkys? Perhaps not, but this last 3 years is the closest we've come to being something like a normal club since they arrived & should not be thrown away just because the grass might be greener on the other side. 

Foundations?

Under Mowbray's tenure, the club has probably lost close to £60million.  Mowbray has spunked fees and wages of £20million+ up the wall on Brereton and Gallagher, the effects will still be felt in the accounts for the next 2 or 3 years.

We have an unbalanced and threadbare squad, in the main bereft of quality with exceptions that can be counted on one hand - a squad that will need major surgery in the close season.

As for player development, where are the 18 / 19 year olds (the next Phil Jones, Damien Duff, David Dunn etc) banging on the first team door who will become 'big players' for us (other clubs produce them)?   We have half a dozen lads going on 21 or so who some folk rave about, however, they have failed to become first team players.

In the main, I think our football is dire.  IMO, we have no identity.  To think fans called Big Sam who left us pushing for the top 8 in the PL.

If you seriously think these are foundations, I'm just glad Mowbray didn't build on feckin sand!!!

Edited July 6, 2020 by Mercer

[Atko's Engine]

53 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Well, there would be if Pulis was the only manager we could possibly choose from if Mowbray ever left but as he isn't I can't see it's particularly relevant!

?

Haha, fair enough! Ewood Ace and Amo (I think) couldn't believe there was a discussion to be had, so that point was really aimed at them.

 

[JHRover]

1 hour ago, Atko's Engine said:

 

TM is doing a good job in most peoples' eyes in the wider footballing world, in the face of no small amount of adversity, albeit whilst not pulling up trees; I often think fans are perhaps understandably over critical of their beloved club to be able to be a bit more objective and see the bigger picture, preferring instead to focus intensely on the areas of desired improvement and gloss over the successes almost as though they're an irrelevance.

 

Steve Kean was doing a good job in the eyes of many outside Ewood Park. Those who witnessed the horror First hand knew different.

I'm not comparing Mowbray to Kean but I'm not really bothered what People outside the club think of us. We shouldn't make our decisions as a club on perceptions or what appears nice. 

Even today many people seem to associate Mowbray with nice football. I'm not sure why because in 3 years I've seen little of it. It seems to be a legacy of positive publicity from his time at West Brom. 

The club should purely focus on the here and now. Forget about upsetting people, being nice, or perceptions. Make decisions based on the needs of the club. 

Remember when Southampton fired Adkins after back to back promotions to get Pochettino. Talk about bold, brave and ambitious. 

[Hasta]

15 hours ago, Atko's Engine said:

But still, it's because TM found Dack that BB & Gally are being compared (unfavourably) with him...

Give over. If we pay £7million for an attacker and he scores 1 league goal in 2 seasons,whilst looking generally very  poor, i dont think people are judging him harshly by beimg compared to Dack.  It's difficult to think of many worse strikers for Rovers in 30 years who have started more than 10 league games for us. Chris Brown, but then Im struggling. 

The £12mill outlay is lookimg a massive failure by Mowbray which has hampered us this season and with FFP probably for seasons to come. 

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Hasta

[Atko's Engine]

16 minutes ago, 47er said:

Yes Dack was an outstandingly good signing but nothing excuses Brereton and nothing excuses playing Gallagher on he wing over and over again when everyone can see it doesn't work. Nothing excuses the goal-keeping situation. Nothing excuses the failure to sort out the defence and to depend on loans for key positions.

Everyone will accept what you say about Dack but so much else has gone wrong.

Massive rebuilding job needed at Ewood in the summer, no confidence Mowbray will make the right decisions with whatever money is made available to him by our crackpot owners.

 

But to give a fair assessment you can't just focus on the bad and ignore the good, or even the outstandingly good. The profit that could ultimately be made on Dack and Armstrong is probably double the losses on Gally & BB, who will still have some resale value (yes, they will!), at least for another 12-18 months.

Re the keeper situation, the number of times Raya was pelted on here for his howlers (rightly so) has been forgotten. There was a widely held view of being well rid, too inconsistent, not PL quality. Now he's doing well elsewhere and his cheaper replacement is having a wobble, it's fair game to throw back at TM.

Most clubs at this level rely on loans. I don't like it any more than you, but it's a fact. Leeds this season, Sheff Utd last season; loan players in key positions, they don't seem to have done too bad by it. Walton is roughly equal to what Raya was last season, Adarabioyo is an upgrade on last season, Cunningham likewise. They've not been bad loans, though in the latter case we were very unlucky.

Replacement loans will be needed in summer, or cheap buys, of course they will. If he gets ones of similar quality to this year, and they stay available for most of the season, Dack returns fit, an U23 or 2 come through like Travis & Nyambe then things can improve further without major money needing to be spent.

[Gav]

1 hour ago, Atko's Engine said:

But Dack has to be part of a balanced debate about the merits of TM's time here doesn't he? He's still a success and a player we all think befits a promotion-challenging team, even if Gally & Brereton have come since and (so far) flopped.

Dack is a very good player, sorely missed, no doubt about that.

But the players around him need to be improved, significantly, we have 3 quality players, the rest are absolute dross.

Over to you Tony, you have 10 games to prove people wrong.

[Stuart]

I’ve heard it all now. We only think Gallagher and Brereton are poor because we have Dack? Nothing to do with their own performances and goal stats?

[AllRoverAsia]

31 minutes ago, Stuart said:

I’ve heard it all now. We only think Gallagher and Brereton are poor because we have Dack? Nothing to do with their own performances and goal stats?

its up there with "if we had scored 1 against Barnsley we could have gone on to score 4 or 5"

[Mattyblue]

Ha! ‘The wider football world’, do me a favour!

Nobody in football does a bad job, the pundits on Sky and his fellow managers will have been lauding Lee Johnson for the ‘great job he’s done’... until they’re sacked, then it’s ‘yeah it was probably time to freshen it up there’.

Jobs for the boys.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Mattyblue

[tomphil]

7 hours ago, Hasta said:

Give over. If we pay £7million for an attacker and he scores 1 league goal in 2 seasons,whilst looking generally very  poor, i dont think people are judging him harshly by beimg compared to Dack.  It's difficult to think of many worse strikers for Rovers in 30 years who have started more than 10 league games for us. Cbris Brown, but them Im struggling. 

The £12mill outlay is lookimg a massive failure by Mowbray which has hampered us this season and with FFP probably for seasons to come. 

 

He's made that outlay to cover for the eventual loss of Dack and to give us another way of playing in the meantime should he be out. He's said as much himself at times over the last 12 months or so usually when one or the other has had a rare good game. Or good ten mins in Bens case.

Now it's been time to step up it isn't working for several reasons but you can bet if we'd taken some points out of the last 3 he'd be trumpeting how they and this formation are the future. They are, he's taken this opportunity to try and bed it in for next season and the signs aren't good he's going to have to go some to gloss this one over.

Verdict is pray Dack comes back well and stays and that he fires off Samuel, loans out Brereton, brings Gally off the wing and finds another actual striker from somewhere.

Not much to ask ?

Edited July 7, 2020 by tomphil

[Blue blood]

56 minutes ago, Stuart said:

I’ve heard it all now. We only think Gallagher and Brereton are poor because we have Dack? Nothing to do with their own performances and goal stats?

Yeah there is a school of thought that a player stands on their own merit. And saying it's only in comparison to Dack that they look bad is pure fantasy. 

Let's compare them to a few other strikers then. Chris Brown - Beretons goal record is 1 better for 7 million more. Or Goodwillie - more goals then Bereton at a fraction of the cost, and we all know he was dire too. Or how about Samuel - looks similar in ability to the other two at a fraction of the costs. They look bad compared to any signing because they were poor buys. 

7 hours ago, Atko's Engine said:

But to give a fair assessment you can't just focus on the bad and ignore the good, or even the outstandingly good. The profit that could ultimately be made on Dack and Armstrong is probably double the losses on Gally & BB, who will still have some resale value (yes, they will!), at least for another 12-18 months.

We don't know this for certain. It's hard to use as an argument when it's in the future in uncertain times after the virus. 

As an aside how much resale value do you think BB and Gally have? The fact it will be a fraction of what we paid might be an indicator they are not very good. 

Quote

Re the keeper situation, the number of times Raya was pelted on here for his howlers (rightly so) has been forgotten. There was a widely held view of being well rid, too inconsistent, not PL quality. Now he's doing well elsewhere and his cheaper replacement is having a wobble, it's fair game to throw back at TM.

Most clubs at this level rely on loans. I don't like it any more than you, but it's a fact. Leeds this season, Sheff Utd last season; loan players in key positions, they don't seem to have done too bad by it. Walton is roughly equal to what Raya was last season, Adarabioyo is an upgrade on last season, Cunningham likewise. They've not been bad loans, though in the latter case we were very unlucky.

Walton equal to Raya?!? Not saying Raya was all that, but Walton has made as many howlers since the restart than Raya made in a season. Walton is having a wobble? He was duff till December and has been terrible since the restart. Only his Gran would say that's a wobble and he hasn't been a bad signing, everyone else can tell he is guff. 

Also Cunningham is hard to judge on the few games he played. Agree he was looking good but it's not fair to judge off so few games.

Quote

Replacement loans will be needed in summer, or cheap buys, of course they will. If he gets ones of similar quality to this year, and they stay available for most of the season, Dack returns fit, an U23 or 2 come through like Travis & Nyambe then things can improve further without major money needing to be spent.

The flowing point is relevant to this and the all clubs rely on loans comment. You are seriously ignoring the extent of work that needs to happen within the squad. 

Firstly yes loans augment a squad and are key - although i definitely want better quality than Walton - but they normally are the missing pieces of a jigsaw not the entire side of one puzzle. Having 3 of 5 of the back line changing is asking for trouble. Defences are built on continuity and quality and whilst a key loan in there is absolutely fine, when more of the defence won't be here next season you'll never get the continuity that is needed for a good defence. 

Also again you underestimate what needs doing to the squad. On top of the replacement loans Johnson, Graham, Mulgrew and Downing are well over 30 and need replacing on the grounds of age. We still haven't got adequate cover in defence, and that's before we even start thinking of improving quality. 

In terms of youngsters breaking in to have the impact you are saying. Nayambe came in at the end of the relegation season, Travis last year. So one every two years suggests that we won't be hugely building a squad around them. 

Honestly I think you look at the evidence of TMs transfers and I struggle to see how anyone can be confident he will get the adequate quality needed. Half his signings were successful this year - and that's his best record yet - but half were disasterous. We as a club cannot have that level of hit and miss in our transfers and shows no faith should be put in the manager to improve the squad. 

 

 

[Mattyblue]

Raya dropped an odd, but yeah, a usually big howler. Walton is letting a soft goal in every other game.

Plus, Raya was a young keeper full of potential learning his trade, and he was OURS. So I was comfortable with the odd clanger.

Instead we’ve sold him for a pittance, he’ll be sold for at least treble what we got when Brentford cash in. And we get lumbered with a bang average stopper who costs us a load of points and then buggers off in a few weeks, leaving us with no first team keeper (assuming Leuts goes too) at all.

Piss poor planning for such a vital position, but we can at least be grateful that his fee paid for half of Sam Gallagher.

 

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by Mattyblue

[Atko's Engine]

I'm not saying there's not work to do, of course there is. And I'm also not saying BB & Gally have been poor only by reference to Dack, of course they have from any viewpoint, especially given their fees.

I'm just of the view that continuing with TM is as likely to bring success as is ditching him and gambling on a replacement, and I think I've explained rationally why I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I may be proved wrong, or right, or we may never know.

Each to their own eh? 

[tomphil]

I quote TM " We sold the goalie to buy a striker"

[47er]

13 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

I'm not saying there's not work to do, of course there is. And I'm also not saying BB & Gally have been poor only by reference to Dack, of course they have from any viewpoint, especially given their fees.

I'm just of the view that continuing with TM is as likely to bring success as is ditching him and gambling on a replacement, and I think I've explained rationally why I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I may be proved wrong, or right, or we may never know.

Each to their own eh? 

On that basis every new manager is a gamble and we should never change because things might get worse. 

He doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt, he's failed. We are stuck in the middle of mediocrity going nowhere till we start going downwards. We are bereft of money, dignity and ideas.

What we have are poor results, boring football, low crowds, big debts and a fantastic history.

We are a few years away from the likes of Bolton, Oldham, and Wigan and I suggest you wake up.

[Kie_BRFC]

13 hours ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

Costing our wonderful club

You boycott every week

[JHRover]

Read Mowbray's comments today and weep.

I think we are back in late Bowyer/Paul Lambert territory with a wall of silence from India, no communication and likely no budget.

Mowbray isn't completely daft and will know what to expect. His comments are to me of a man who is preparing the fanbase for an unpleasant summer with little to no money.

I spent all last summer complaining about using the loan market to fill crucial positions like GK and CB. I was worried back then that we would face this situation yet many told me I was overreacting and there was nothing wrong with using loans if it saved us money.

Well here we are. The spine of the team set to depart, a manager who is a failure in the transfer market and owners who are back to not communicating.

[tomphil]

I think it's going to be a make the best of what you've got summer i'm fully prepared for that. It won't be great but if we manage to retain most if not all the best players it needn't be a disaster. The transition to ball retention nonsense needs binning off and we need to go to being a team who wants to get as many points as possible as quickly as possible.

The deadwood and silly human angle needs binning off as well sorry if that's blunt to those easily offended by that's the reality of it. Save some cash by finally ousting the under achievers and put faith in the youth. No way will this squad on the pitch miss Mulgrew. Smallwood, Samuel and they'll just have to cope about the place not having them there draining thousands per week to be nice lads.

 Pathetic talk that is from the manager grow a pair of bollocks.

The strive for stability will rule again next season so we'll have to lump it.  If there's a fire sale we are going down and only a McCarthy of Pulis might stop it.

[Blue blood]

1 hour ago, Atko's Engine said:

I'm not saying there's not work to do, of course there is. And I'm also not saying BB & Gally have been poor only by reference to Dack, of course they have from any viewpoint, especially given their fees.

I'm just of the view that continuing with TM is as likely to bring success as is ditching him and gambling on a replacement, and I think I've explained rationally why I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I may be proved wrong, or right, or we may never know.

Each to their own eh? 

I don't necessarily disagree with this. In fact I fear this is the likeliest outcome. However that isn't down to TM being particularly good but by virtue of any possible replacement - given we are run by a third rate agency - being absolutely terrible.

TM is mediocre at best, pretty poor in my book, but the same said agency gave us Coyle and Lambert both of whom are worse. The other appointments include Bowyer who was a bit more astute in the transfer market but less so tactically, and Appleton and Berg who didn't seem to be great shakes at all. TM is arguably the best of these by a fair way (maybe Bowyer but his record elsewhere is weak so probably not.) So looking at the evidence the likelihood is we will do worse. Much worse. 

To me the sad facts of Rovers these days are that TM isn't very good and yet under the current set up is as good as we will get. If the owners were to look at recruiting outside the agency with a bit more ambition TM would be out the door straight away imo as there are good realistic candidates out there. But whilst the owners will only ship in a solitary bargain basement store, we ain't going to get any of them. 

[MarkBRFC]

30 minutes ago, tomphil said:

I think it's going to be a make the best of what you've got summer i'm fully prepared for that. It won't be great but if we manage to retain most if not all the best players it needn't be a disaster. The transition to ball retention nonsense needs binning off and we need to go to being a team who wants to get as many points as possible as quickly as possible.

The deadwood and silly human angle needs binning off as well sorry if that's blunt to those easily offended by that's the reality of it. Save some cash by finally ousting the under achievers and put faith in the youth. No way will this squad on the pitch miss Mulgrew. Smallwood, Samuel and they'll just have to cope about the place not having them there draining thousands per week to be nice lads.

 Pathetic talk that is from the manager grow a pair of bollocks.

The strive for stability will rule again next season so we'll have to lump it.  If there's a fire sale we are going down and only a McCarthy of Pulis might stop it.

Completely agree, there must be 3 lads from the under 23's who can contribute the same as to what they have this season.

[Amo]

Nothing will change until Venky's are gone. Don't let the semblance of normality beguile you, we're still a basketcase that is being run by agents on the down-low.  

[Mashed Potatoes]

1 hour ago, Kie_BRFC said:

You boycott every week

No.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

4 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

Ha! ‘The wider football world’, do me a favour!

Nobody in football does a bad job, the pundits on Sky and his fellow managers will have been lauding Lee Johnson for the ‘great job he’s done’... until they’re sacked, then it’s ‘yeah it was probably time to freshen it up there’.

Jobs for the boys.

It's same with the players, nobody will say a thing until the manager actually gets the bullet then the truth sometimes comes out.

[Rogerb]

3 hours ago, JHRover said:

 

I think we are back in late Bowyer/Paul Lambert territory with a wall of silence from India, no communication and likely no budget.

 

History suggests that when the owners stop communicating with the manager the manager is on borrowed time and starved of funds. Circumstances would suggest we are nearing the end of mowbrays tenure not like owners to have the longest serving manager in the division

[RevidgeBlue]

4 hours ago, tomphil said:

I quote TM " We sold the goalie to buy a striker"

When's he coming in?