Mowbray: Stay or Go - A Poll

[oldjamfan1]

6 minutes ago, Amo said:

And Brereton hasn't been a monumental failure?

I think you're being a silly goose.

I think they were talking about newcomers from  last summer to be fair. I don't think even Paul can deny that Brereton has been underwhelming (to say the least!)

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, Mattyblue said:

Well nobody was comparing them as styles of goalkeeper, so you’ve gone off on your own tangent.

Walton as Brighton first choice? I suppose  they could get relegated at some point.

They are just farming out their 4 th choice keeper in the hope someone will buy him that's all that's happening there.

[Admiral Nelsen]

33 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Like I said. Opinions...Only Gally has failed for me. Downing, Ada, Cunningham class. Johnson has been exactly what I thought and been useful in some games, not in others and I refuse to say that Walton has been a failure, if nothing because he’s been central to our best defensive showing since we dropped out of the PL.

 

I'm with you with most of that, but I'd still see Walton as being under-par. I think our stronger defence says more about about getting a stronger partner for Darragh (and perhaps Lenihan staying fit for longer). Walton will take some credit too, and I do like some things about him, but he's made one or two too many errors. By no means a disaster, but equally I think we need better. 

[tomphil]

34 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

Cunningham is a leap to "class". He only played a quarter of the season.

Mowbray should be given another season. At the end of the day progress has been made, we are a better team now than last, but the only problem lies in the fact that once again we are forced to have a high turnover of players. Now, we can all blame Mowbray, but name me a season under Venkys where we haven't required such a high turnover of players? Some think the blame lies solely at the managers door but surely that pattern points to another influence. The only consistent in all of this is them.

If Tony Mowbray can find a player of Tosin's class, Walton's class, Downing's class and then somehow afford the two wingers + left back we require this summer than fair play. There'll need to be a few loans again, but these loans need to be tied in quickly, and once again we will be late to the party because we can't decide on any budget until we meet the royalty of Pune.

Lastly, Mowbray needs to admit that Elliott Bennett isn't good enough for this squad. It's criminal he is still being shoe horned in to any position going on the pitch. 

 

Agree on Cunningham all he proved is that he was a more comfortable left back than Williams or Bell there's absolutely no guarantee he'd have kept it up all season. The signs were good but he was all at sea a few times as well, such a shame we didn't get to find out if he really was the real deal.

You've highlighted the good there of TM and also one of his major weaknesses and for me the two tend to balance each other out somewhat overall.

Could be worse hell yes but also should be better at times he lends to the inconsistency by being very inconsistent himself.

[Amo]

50 minutes ago, oldjamfan1 said:

I think they were talking about newcomers from  last summer to be fair. I don't think even Paul can deny that Brereton has been underwhelming (to say the least!)

Fairy nuff.

Gallagher was such an iffy signing. Never impressed under Mowbray and did sweet eff all on loan at Brum, but didn't stop us splashing £5m on him. Then Mowbray proceeds to play him as an outside forward. Bizarre.

[roversfan99]

2 hours ago, Paul Mani said:

As I said mate. It’s just about opinions. We don’t have to agree.

imo Steele didn’t make unforced errors. He was just simply crap. Which has been proven everywhere he’s been since. He’s poor physically, technically, positionally...the full shebang.

Walton is not poor in any of those departments. He’s just inconsistent. That’s why Brighton believe he will be their number 1 once he’s spent enough time getting in the Championship getting experience.

So yeah, in my opinion it was a lazy comparison. 

People always put too much into statements like these. I don't ever recall a manager coming out and saying "we've loaned him out because we dont rate him and are trying to put him in the shop window enough for a lower league club to buy him."

All I do know is that Walton is nowhere near being Premier League quality. He is below average in a League with a poor overall standard of goalkeeping. He must have gone into double figures now in terms of goals he should have prevented. Even in his best run of form he was solid rather than stand out, hes not the type that will keep you in games.

[47er]

2 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

‘You’re all ridiculous...
but err you are entitled to your opinion and I don’t get personal, remember’

Welcome back Paul 

Nailed it!

[47er]

1 hour ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

Mowbray should be given another season. At the end of the day progress has been made, we are a better team now than last,

Its marginal rather than significant? Could easily be undone by end of season churn, failure of owners to fund transfers, failure of manager to sign right players.

In short any improvement is at glacial speed and we'll all be dead by the time Tony's rebuilding programme has finished.

[Hasta]

Walton is a mediocre goalkeeper. 

He's probably better than Steele but still makes too many unforced mistakes, and also concedes goals which, whilst he can't be blamed for, a better keeper would keep out. This last part is what makes a good keeper in my opinion. 

He obviously wasn't the plan when we sold Raya, but the original targets must have fallen through and he was a desperate move towards the end of the transfer window. The fact we sold our goalkeeper, and ended up loaning a goalkeeper who was inferior, is poor management.

To balance it up, the reason our defensive record is improved is that Tosin / Lenihan has been a better partnership than previous seasons. Great loan signing by Mowbray.  If we had signed Tosin then then that would be superb, but Mowbray needs to pull that quality of signing again for next season (and sort the keeper situation out)

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by Hasta

[Admiral Nelsen]

5 minutes ago, 47er said:

Its marginal rather than significant? Could easily be undone by end of season churn, failure of owners to fund transfers, failure of manager to sign right players.

In short any improvement is at glacial speed and we'll all be dead by the time Tony's rebuilding programme has finished.

Hardly glacial. Remains to be seen where we'll end up this year, but promotion from L1, 14th in the Championship, and then lets say we stay where we are in 10th this year? This is more than just trivial levels of year-on-year improvement. 

A horrible transfer window/reduction in budgets could undo everything, like you say, but this is the sea in which almost every club at our level swims. Maybe the level above too. Doesn't seem like a good reason to get rid of the man in charge, especially when he has a record of bringing in players who can improve us, even if there are a couple of expensive mistakes too.

I get that there are gripes with Mowbray, the SG & BB signings being the obvious ones, but I really don't get where the clamour to get rid comes from after looking at his record overall.

[roversfan99]

Just now, Admiral Nelsen said:

Hardly glacial. Remains to be seen where we'll end up this year, but promotion from L1, 14th in the Championship, and then lets say we stay where we are in 10th this year? This is more than just trivial levels of year-on-year improvement. 

A horrible transfer window/reduction in budgets could undo everything, like you say, but this is the sea in which almost every club at our level swims. Maybe the level above too. Doesn't seem like a good reason to get rid of the man in charge, especially when he has a record of bringing in players who can improve us, even if there are a couple of expensive mistakes too.

I get that there are gripes with Mowbray, the SG & BB signings being the obvious ones, but I really don't get where the clamour to get rid comes from after looking at his record overall.

Linear progression doesnt mean too much in terms of jumping up a few mid table positions, its very rare that you keep your team together for long enough to gradually creep up the table year on year to get promotion. But obviously that Cardiff result has changed a fluid situation that will change further in the last 4 games. We are still a point off last seasons tally, before Tuesday night it looked quite likely that we wouldnt beat that 60 point tally, in which case any progression becomes difficult to argue. So it all depends by how many if any we do beat last seasons point tally.

I think the fear is stagnation and following that, regression. It is difficult to consider us a genuine play off contender this season on account of us NEVER having broken that barrier and getting into the top 6 even once. Even now, we are clinging onto the remote hope that we win 4, and numerous other teams drop varying numbers of points. Throw in the mix the aforementioned huge purchases, amounts of money it is impossible not to think what it could have done was it not poured down the drain, and numerous areas of tactical confusion and players out of position and it does make it easy to ask questions. He has been here longer than any other manager in the division, and to get promoted you need a season above expectations. is he capable of that? Unconvinced.

Some who are defensive of Mowbray are keen to make out as if we are a small fish in a massive pond, fighting against the tide with miniscule resources but that isnt true due to the reasons I outlined earlier in the thread. 

[47er]

12 minutes ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

Doesn't seem like a good reason to get rid of the man in charge

Well we haven't finished 10th yet have we?

How about the boring football? Gav and others went bonkers about Allardyce but at least we were in the Premier League and improving. We're going backwards now.

Progress would be making top 6 in my view. And he said that was his aim. Or was it 70 points?

Either way he's failed.

How about £12M strikers who can't score and are played out of position?

3 and a half years and we haven't got one decent keeper at the Club.

Unbelievable what some people will put up with.

 

[Mattyblue]

End of the day if football hadn’t have become the financial loony bin it now is, especially in the Championship then a progression of L1, 14th, 10th would be fine, build again and improve it. Make it 6th in your 4th year with players that are ever more experienced and settled, adding others as you go.

However, with FFP, ‘slow builds’ are very difficult to enact as we now have a boom and bust model in which if you don’t get promoted in your 3 year cycle and you have a wage to turnover ratio like we do, then you have to downsize and are back to the start.

 

 

[Hasta]

25 minutes ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

especially when he has a record of bringing in players who can improve us, even if there are a couple of expensive mistakes too.

My gripe isn't necessarily that he brought in two expensive flops. It's that rather than cut his losses he has persevered with them, often out of position, to the detriment of the team.

Chapman has not performed for the club so has been bombed out of the squad. Other younger players get a little bit of game time, have a poor game, and are bombed out of the squad. Easy to do when they haven't cost the club a lot of money.

As he has spent so much money on these two, he has to persist in weakening us by trying to fit them into a formation somewhere rather than accept what has happened (expensive mistakes) and resort to playing either superior players (Graham) and youth players (JRC). Whatever is the reason why he has kept going with them, it's bad management. 

I'm not one of these people who blame Mowbray for relegation back in 2017. He came in with a job to do and nearly did it. It was almost a freakish points total that saw us relegated, and his haul of 1.47 points per game (over 15 games) was a very good return. The problem was being too slow bulletins Coyle rather than who we brought in that season. However 1.47 points per game would have garnered us 67 points in a season. Over a 15 game stretch in 2017, Mowbray got that squad performing at a higher PPG ratio than we did last season and probably will do this season.

Getting promoted the following season wasn't a gimme, and Mowbray did well to bring in Dack and Armstrong and get us back at the first time of asking. But the side that came back up should have been better than the side that Mowbray unluckily went down with. It was hardly a team of lower league journey-men facing the might of the championship for the first time.  I don't buy the 'but it was our first season back in the Championship" nonsense. Thats why last season I thought we under-performed and this season 60+ points is the absolute minimum I would expect.

Edited July 9, 2020 by Hasta

[Admiral Nelsen]

13 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Linear progression doesnt mean too much in terms of jumping up a few mid table positions, its very rare that you keep your team together for long enough to gradually creep up the table year on year to get promotion. But obviously that Cardiff result has changed a fluid situation that will change further in the last 4 games. We are still a point off last seasons tally, before Tuesday night it looked quite likely that we wouldnt beat that 60 point tally, in which case any progression becomes difficult to argue. So it all depends by how many if any we do beat last seasons point tally.

I think the fear is stagnation and following that, regression. It is difficult to consider us a genuine play off contender this season on account of us NEVER having broken that barrier and getting into the top 6 even once. Even now, we are clinging onto the remote hope that we win 4, and numerous other teams drop varying numbers of points. Throw in the mix the aforementioned huge purchases, amounts of money it is impossible not to think what it could have done was it not poured down the drain, and numerous areas of tactical confusion and players out of position and it does make it easy to ask questions. He has been here longer than any other manager in the division, and to get promoted you need a season above expectations. is he capable of that? Unconvinced.

Some who are defensive of Mowbray are keen to make out as if we are a small fish in a massive pond, fighting against the tide with miniscule resources but that isnt true due to the reasons I outlined earlier in the thread. 

That's completely valid and a totally justified fear, but equally I think it's unfair to bin off Mowbray until that actually materialises! Especially when you could easily say the same for virtually every club in the league. 

You're right that promotion, rather than linear progression is the name of the game. Linear progress does however count for 1) an indication of how far away we are from 'actual' success, and TM's record shows that we're probably going to be reasonably closer than last year, and a hell of a lot closer than the previous 2/3/4 years. Because of this, it also matters for 2) how easy it is to attract/keep hold of the right players. Even if this means that you lose players along the way, like you say, a team that finishes just outside the 6 looks a much better proposition than one that finishes 14th.

 

I'm getting slightly away from my main point here; I accept that there are good reasons why some fans might have issues with Mowbray - but getting rid of a manager is an enormously unsettling thing for a football club, and for me should only happen where there is good evidence that you need to change. At present, when we're making progress, I don't see anywhere near enough evidence that we're in that sort of territory. 

[TheRovers1994]

Has to go! Yes he's done a great job getting us back on our feet but from a football pov he's room us as far as his capability, he has no real plan nor identity of play, no touchline presence even his backroom are useless bar johnson, him,his assistant, first team coach and gk coach need to go. 

 

With this pandemic and the fact we splashed cash on players who ain't contributed enough even though they haven't been played correctly so their confidence isn't there we are gonna be looking to cut back. 

He extended leuitwiler and smallwoods contracts why ? They dont play and know they are leaving so why would they sweat for us ? Just a waste of a wage and their places on the bench could have been used by youth who would bring something when called upon. 

I would honestly go for gareth Ainsworth, would bring a solid hard to beat system and is an up and coming manager, damien Johnson as his assistant manager with new first team coach and gk coach appointments, Ainsworth is also a Blackburn man and well respected 

Mowbray has to style of play, one game we are tiky taka look shit hot look like we can hammer anyone the next we are smashing it into the riverside with no clue, he lacks a firm game plan, no ability to change a game when the going gets tough, he just puts his hands in his pockets head down hoping for a miracle so has no fire in his belly barking out orders and rallying his troops like neil warnock for example, he's also messed up the balance of the team and hasn't recruited to suit the formations he likes to play 

 

 

[Admiral Nelsen]

33 minutes ago, Hasta said:

My gripe isn't necessarily that he brought in two expensive flops. It's that rather than cut his losses he has persevered with them, often out of position, to the detriment of the team.

Chapman has not performed for the club so has been bombed out of the squad. Other younger players get a little bit of game time, have a poor game, and are bombed out of the squad. Easy to do when they haven't cost the club a lot of money.

As he has spent so much money on these two, he has to persist in weakening us by trying to fit them into a formation somewhere rather than accept what has happened (expensive mistakes) and resort to playing either superior players (Graham) and youth players (JRC). Whatever is the reason why he has kept going with them, it's bad management. 

I'm not one of these people who blame Mowbray for relegation back in 2017. He came in with a job to do and nearly did it. It was almost a freakish points total that saw us relegated, and his haul of 1.47 points per game (over 15 games) was a very good return. The problem was being too slow bulletins Coyle rather than who we brought in that season. However 1.47 points per game would have garnered us 67 points in a season. Over a 15 game stretch in 2017, Mowbray got that squad performing at a higher PPG ratio than we did last season and probably will do this season.

Getting promoted the following season wasn't a gimme, and Mowbray did well to bring in Dack and Armstrong and get us back at the first time of asking. But the side that came back up should have been better than the side that Mowbray unluckily went down with. It was hardly a team of lower league journey-men facing the might of the championship for the first time.  I don't buy the 'but it was our first season back in the Championship" nonsense. Thats why last season I thought we under-performed and this season 60+ points is the absolute minimum I would expect.

I agree with plenty of this, including that we probably could have expected a few more points last time out given how we started.

Having said that, I still think that looking at the big picture, we have improved from this year to last, and that it's really hard to see a good case to get rid of the manager whilst that's true. 

[Miller11]

If we’d have beaten Barnsley and Wigan, we’d be 6th in the league. 

If we played with Graham, Armstrong and Samuel as a front three in those games we’d have been far more likely to win them.

If Gallagher and Brereton has come through the youth ranks instead of costing millions of pounds they would be nowhere near the first team squad based on their ability and influence on games.

These big money flops are a massive hinderance.

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

16 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

If we’d have beaten Barnsley and Wigan, we’d be 6th in the league. 

If we played with Graham, Armstrong and Samuel as a front three in those games we’d have been far more likely to win them.

If Gallagher and Brereton has come through the youth ranks instead of costing millions of pounds they would be nowhere near the first team squad based on their ability and influence on games.

These big money flops are a massive hinderance.

 

If Gallagher and Brererton had have come up through the youth ranks they'd be out on loan like Wharton and Platt now.

[MarkBRFC]

Yeah I was going to say similar, Brereton would have spent the season at Barrow if he had come through the academy.

[roversfan99]

Just to go on a slight tangent. I don't agree that Mowbray did obtain a very good points return in that relegation season. It is pretty black and white, for example did Liverpool have a better points tally last season (97 points) than the Invincibles Arsenal team? (90 points) No because Arsenal in that season got the points required to win the league, and Liverpool didnt.

A very good point return would have been enough to keep us up that season, how many points that would have been required in other seasons, or how many points we would have ended on were the results from that chunk of games extrapolated across 46 games, its all speculative, meaningless and irrelevant.

This shouldnt be twisted into me giving Mowbray most of the blame for that season, obviously not, but he failed to do the (difficult) task he set out to do. 

I would argue that this season is the most difficult in terms of setting tangible expectations, therefore its much more subjective. First season, the requirement was keeping us up, which he failed. Second season, the minimum requirement was promotion, which was achieved. Third season, minimum expectation is stability, again achieved. This season, some might think one point extra is a good achievement, some might think top 6 is the minimum achievement, which I think creates much more debate.

[Hasta]

3 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I don't agree that Mowbray did obtain a very good points return in that relegation season. It is pretty black and white,.

I'm far from Mowbray biggest fan, but he gathered enough points per game to see us 7th or 8th if he had gone a full season at that rate.

I know he himself said he failed, but if someone took over Norwich tomorrow, won 3 and drew one of their remaining games but got relegated, you wouldn't say that since that person took over they hadn't obtained a very good points return just because they got relegated.

[roversfan99]

19 minutes ago, Hasta said:

I'm far from Mowbray biggest fan, but he gathered enough points per game to see us 7th or 8th if he had gone a full season at that rate.

I know he himself said he failed, but if someone took over Norwich tomorrow, won 3 and drew one of their remaining games but got relegated, you wouldn't say that since that person took over they hadn't obtained a very good points return just because they got relegated.

They are totally incomparable situations. Norwich can be mathematically relegated in their next game, Mowbray took over in February and we hadnt been cut adrift.

Ive never claimed he inherited an easy job, it was difficult but he failed the job he tried to do. Its that simple. You cant extrapolate results of a small part of the season, playing only certain fixtures including a few at the end v teams with nothing to play for, its not accurate. One more point and hed have done it so he will close but not close enough.

Im not saying either that he did a horrendous job where there was no hope gathered from his management. But he came to do something and failed, just.

[DeeCee]

Great job Tony, you've reached/exceeded our/your expectations but it's time to move to the next level.

Wish you well in the future.

Bye!

[Hasta]

19 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

They are totally incomparable situations. Norwich can be mathematically relegated in their next game, Mowbray took over in February and we hadnt been cut adrift.

Ive never claimed he inherited an easy job, it was difficult but he failed the job he tried to do. Its that simple. You cant extrapolate results of a small part of the season, playing only certain fixtures including a few at the end v teams with nothing to play for, its not accurate. One more point and hed have done it so he will close but not close enough.

Im not saying either that he did a horrendous job where there was no hope gathered from his management. But he came to do something and failed, just.

Look I think he has probably run his course now, but I can't agree on this.

I'm saying his points return of 1.47 points per game was good, especially compared to what came before him that season. You said his points return wasn't good and that is black and white.

If a new manager came in today, won 3 and drew 1 of the last 4 games, and we missed out on the play-offs by 1 point, would his points return be not very good?

Edited July 9, 2020 by Hasta