Season Tickets 2020-21

[Parsonblue]

1 hour ago, Paul said:

I find it hard to understand how anyone can interpret as anything other than if supporters want a JW Upper ST they are available to buy:

"there will be tickets for people up there who want to buy on a season ticket basis."

But then why am I surprised? We've had a summer of the club being criticised for not selling STs when the club needs the cash flow. Now the club has looked at Social Distancing with an eye to managing costs by opening a limited number of stands. I can only presume the fans asking for ST sales to ease  cash flow will be unhappy the club is attempting to control costs.

Change has to be accepted to defeat this virus.

@Parsonblue it would be a real blow to see a long-term supporter such as yourself leave. Can I urge you to read the LT link again. On the basis of this article I would expect to buy a JW Upper ST. I'm considering moving there from the JWL as I feel Social Distancing will possibly be better observed in this area.

I don't know who or how this rumour began but it's not based on any known facts.

I've read it several times Paul and the way I read it - and I may be wrong because it's far from clear - is that the lower tiers will be sold first to supporters and the JW Upper will initially be kept for the corporate supporters.  I read it that corporate supporters will be able to buy a season ticket - as they do now - for the JW Upper.  I hope I'm wrong and your interpretation is correct. I will endeavour to try to get some form of clarification.

[RevidgeBlue]

46 minutes ago, Parsonblue said:

I've read it several times Paul and the way I read it - and I may be wrong because it's far from clear - is that the lower tiers will be sold first to supporters and the JW Upper will initially be kept for the corporate supporters.  I read it that corporate supporters will be able to buy a season ticket - as they do now - for the JW Upper.  I hope I'm wrong and your interpretation is correct. I will endeavour to try to get some form of clarification.

That is exactly how it reads Parson, there is no indication that a non Corporate punter will definitely be able to get a seat in JW upper at all.

What were the previous arrangements for people who had a deal entitling them to use the lounge then watch the game from the JW?

Were they dotted about everywhere or put in the posher seats in the middle?

Can't for the life of me see why there's any need to drastically change what was done previously as Corporate demand will drop off a cliff I'd imagine.

[tomphil]

Swaggo telling us his 'fleece what you've got first' methods.

[Stuart]

21 hours ago, JHRover said:

Is there any element of our support base that Waggott hasn't yet annoyed or completely alienated through his various schemes?

Long standing season ticket holders in the BBE Upper tier family stand - their area shut and closed down and forcibly relocated to pitchside - no consultation

JW Lower BBE side - turfed out because their seats became the new family stand and got taken over by families and kids

Darwen Enders - their area shut down at a moment's notice without consultation - no effort whatsoever made to relocate them to a suitable other area of the ground - many no longer go to Ewood - less aggro though so happy days down there.

JW upper - now being shifted out to make way for prawn sandwich brigade

Riversiders will be next - they've already had a dose of what is to come with that stand being shut in most cup fixtures - league games will be next

I feel lucky that as a JW Lower Darwen End sider I've not yet fallen victim to any of these bright ideas. Plenty of time for that though. When his plan for shifting thousands of season tickets in the lower tiers gets unveiled. I can't imagine how he plans on running it and this obsession with 'lower tiers' all stemming from Suhail and wanting the ground to look busy on TV.

All done in the space of 3 years. All done in a very callous approach of 'this is it, take it or leave it, if you're a proper fan you'll back the club' 

I think people are rapidly getting wise to it and seeing through it all now and being asked to pay more for the privilege is a bitter pill to swallow.

And yet the reason he is not selling season tickets is to avoid upsetting fans.

[arbitro]

After chasing up my request for recompense after not taking up the iFollow offer I got the following earlier signed by Waggott. I have responded to this.

The Club is doing everything possible to ensure we survive the unique challenges of Covid19 and the absence of any income over the last six months.

 

As such, we are not in a position to offer any cash refunds for games played behind closed doors last season. The provision of live streaming of the nine games in question was the best available solution in the circumstances and has been regarded as a reasonable alternative by supporters of the Club.

 

Nothing about the current situation is ideal and we acknowledge everyone is doing their utmost to navigate through to a return to normality when we can welcome fans back to the stadium.

 

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

16 minutes ago, arbitro said:

After chasing up my request for recompense after not taking up the iFollow offer I got the following earlier signed by Waggott. I have responded to this.

The Club is doing everything possible to ensure we survive the unique challenges of Covid19 and the absence of any income over the last six months.

 

As such, we are not in a position to offer any cash refunds for games played behind closed doors last season. The provision of live streaming of the nine games in question was the best available solution in the circumstances and has been regarded as a reasonable alternative by supporters of the Club.

 

Nothing about the current situation is ideal and we acknowledge everyone is doing their utmost to navigate through to a return to normality when we can welcome fans back to the stadium.

 

Genuine question: did other clubs offer refunds or is it just Rovers and possibly a few other?

[Mattyblue]

Just a reminder to @only2garners, please could the JW issue be raised tonight?

[Ewood Ace]

25 minutes ago, arbitro said:

After chasing up my request for recompense after not taking up the iFollow offer I got the following earlier signed by Waggott. I have responded to this.

The Club is doing everything possible to ensure we survive the unique challenges of Covid19 and the absence of any income over the last six months.

 

As such, we are not in a position to offer any cash refunds for games played behind closed doors last season. The provision of live streaming of the nine games in question was the best available solution in the circumstances and has been regarded as a reasonable alternative by supporters of the Club.

 

Nothing about the current situation is ideal and we acknowledge everyone is doing their utmost to navigate through to a return to normality when we can welcome fans back to the stadium.

 

What a disgraceful response. Threaten them with legal action that will soon get you your refund as legally they don't have a leg to stand on.

[Ewood Ace]

6 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

Genuine question: did other clubs offer refunds or is it just Rovers and possibly a few other?

Not every club for example PNE did similar to us but the vast majority of clubs did offer refunds.

[arbitro]

8 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

Genuine question: did other clubs offer refunds or is it just Rovers and possibly a few other?

From memory three didn't with us and Preston two of them. To be clear it was some form of recompense the majority were offering in terms of discounts etc. In my original contact email to them my request was for similar.

[Dreams of 1995]

8 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

What a disgraceful response. Threaten them with legal action that will soon get you your refund as legally they don't have a leg to stand on.

You mustn't have ever heard of force majeure then. 

If he threatens them with legal action Waggot will ride him all the way through the courts and back. 

It is also situations like the above with arbitro for why Waggott was probably reluctant to put Season Tickets on sale.

Once cash flow is confirmed - ie sale of ticket - it is incredibly hard to ring fence that cash as an aside in case of refunds when you are running a loss making enterprise.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Dreams of 1995

[arbitro]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

You mustn't have ever heard of force majeure then. 

If he threatens them with legal action Waggot will ride him all the way through the courts and back. 

It has never been my intention to take it further that contacting them for a response and some form of action from them. What prompted it was the original communication which, in my view attempted to put season ticket holders without access to iFollow on some kind of guilt trip as if football was the only sufferer in the pandemic. 

[RevidgeBlue]

4 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

What a disgraceful response. Threaten them with legal action that will soon get you your refund as legally they don't have a leg to stand on.

Disgraceful indeed.

Not a hint of contrition or an apology.

The Club use emotional blackmail initially saying we "hope" fans won't pursue refunds and insinuating that you're not a proper fan if you do request one, but nevertheless inferring they will actually be available to anyone who really needs  one or wants one badly enough.

However when push comes to shove the attitude changes to "you can like it or lump it".

Absolutely appalling. I've never known anything like it. If you genuinely can't afford to give refunds, first and foremost, apologise but at least be up hront and honest about it as well.

 

[arbitro]

8 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

You mustn't have ever heard of force majeure then. 

If he threatens them with legal action Waggot will ride him all the way through the courts and back. 

It is also situations like the above with arbitro for why Waggott was probably reluctant to put Season Tickets on sale.

Once cash flow is confirmed - ie sale of ticket - it is incredibly hard to ring fence that cash as an aside in case of refunds when you are running a loss making enterprise.

But Waggott has now out rightly dismissed any refunds at any time.

[Dreams of 1995]

2 minutes ago, arbitro said:

It has never been my intention to take it further that contacting them for a response and some form of action from them. What prompted it was the original communication which, in my view attempted to put season ticket holders without access to iFollow on some kind of guilt trip as if football was the only sufferer in the pandemic. 

No doubt arbitro, and I posted my own personal experience with this and my grandad Brian who unfortunately was never able to access the iFollow service and will never be in a mindset to challenge the club about a potential refund. It was a ludicrous suggestion as an alternative, and I do believe that refunds should have given pro-rata, or at least the difference between iFollow and actual attendance given the fact you were offered a lesser product.

We aren't that family club we used to be that's for sure.

[Dreams of 1995]

1 minute ago, arbitro said:

But Waggott has now out rightly dismissed any refunds at any time.

Unfortunately that is his prerogative but what I was getting at is with this refusal to refund, it was probably the reason why STs were like they were. He doesn't want to refund anyone for cash the club receives, therefore potentially selling 4000+ tickets with a refund clause attached would be bad for club cash flow.

I'm guessing by the way, going off accounting procedures in the industry I work in, but trying to put some science behind some rather odd decisions

[arbitro]

Just now, Dreams of 1995 said:

No doubt arbitro, and I posted my own personal experience with this and my grandad Brian who unfortunately was never able to access the iFollow service and will never be in a mindset to challenge the club about a potential refund. It was a ludicrous suggestion as an alternative, and I do believe that refunds should have given pro-rata, or at least the difference between iFollow and actual attendance given the fact you were offered a lesser product.

We aren't that family club we used to be that's for sure.

It isn't and never was about money for me. It was anger at being taken for granted with Waggott (or whoever) not having a clue about my (or anybody's) personal circumstances. The tone of the original communication was what really angered me.

[RevidgeBlue]

20 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

You mustn't have ever heard of force majeure then. 

If he threatens them with legal action Waggot will ride him all the way through the courts and back. 

It is also situations like the above with arbitro for why Waggott was probably reluctant to put Season Tickets on sale.

Once cash flow is confirmed - ie sale of ticket - it is incredibly hard to ring fence that cash as an aside in case of refunds when you are running a loss making enterprise.

Absolute nonsense.

Waggott probably would be stupid enough to spend thousands of pounds of legal costs defending a £90(?) claim in the small claims Court but it wouldn't get him very far.

Secondly, the situation between last season and this season is completely different. The Club contracted to provide 23 games in the flesh at Ewood Park last season. If we'd put season tickets on sale this season it would have been on the strict understanding that there would be no refunds in the event of Covid enforced non attendance.

Completely different. I don't understand why anyone can't see that.

Edited September 14, 2020 by RevidgeBlue

[Ewood Ace]

33 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

You mustn't have ever heard of force majeure then. 

If he threatens them with legal action Waggot will ride him all the way through the courts and back. 

Not sure how Waggott could afford to do that given he is pleading poverty over what would be a £60-£80 refund. Also looking at the terms of conditions and taking into account the Consumer Rights Act 2015 you would have a very very strong case. 

Edited September 14, 2020 by Ewood Ace

[Dreams of 1995]

19 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Absolute nonsense.

Waggott probably would be stupid enough to spend thousands of pounds of legal costs defending a £90(?) claim in the small claims Court but it wouldn't get him very far.

Secondly, the situation between last season and this season is completely different. The Club contracted to provide 23 games in the flesh at Ewood Park last season. If we'd put season tickets on sale this season it would have been on the strict understanding that there would be no refunds in the event of Covid enforced non attendance.

Completely different. I don't understand why anyone can't see that.

It wouldn't be a £90 claim would it. It would be a potential for a £90 claim + court costs x approx. 8,500. So effectively the liability for Rovers on the back of a hypothetical court scenario would be £765,000 minimum. If arbitro did go ahead, and the court ruled in his favour, it would pave the way for mass refunds. You could even bet your bottom quid that representatives from PNE would assist in the defence claim.

Secondly, it wouldn't even get to court. Rovers' own season ticket terms and conditions are as follows:

NO REFUNDS can be given under any circumstances for individual matches that the Season Ticket holder cannot attend. The Club cannot guarantee that your seat (or the designated area of the stadium in the case of the Bryan Douglas Darwen End Season Ticket) will not be affected by adverse weather conditions. Blackburn Rovers excludes to the maximum extent permitted by law any liability for loss, injury or damage to persons/property in or around the ground.

https://www.rovers.co.uk/tickets/season-ticket-terms-conditions/

 

Lastly, this seasons' tickets would have to be sold under the same conditions, given the climate and reluctance from BRFC to issue refunds. Therefore, had Waggott sold 8,500 season tickets (unlikely) then the government said no, you can only have 1000, it would put the club in the position of needing to notify 7,500 people of their unfortunate circumstances about not being able to see the game live and no refund whatsoever. Otherwise it would break the stance he is taking on last seasons' tickets. However, from an accounting p.o.v, as we are making a loss, you'd have to assume the income gained from those 7,500 tickets is already accounted for and spent, meaning any refund is a further cost to the club.

I'm not defending him but only looking to try and understand the motives behind it. Call it nonsense all you want, it's some guess work so may well be. I'm not particularly supportive of Waggott or the board. 

Bloody hell, already wishing I didn't post. Fuck it - Rovers bad, mmm'kay.

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by Dreams of 1995

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, arbitro said:

After chasing up my request for recompense after not taking up the iFollow offer I got the following earlier signed by Waggott. I have responded to this.

The Club is doing everything possible to ensure we survive the unique challenges of Covid19 and the absence of any income over the last six months.

 

As such, we are not in a position to offer any cash refunds for games played behind closed doors last season. The provision of live streaming of the nine games in question was the best available solution in the circumstances and has been regarded as a reasonable alternative by supporters of the Club.

 

Nothing about the current situation is ideal and we acknowledge everyone is doing their utmost to navigate through to a return to normality when we can welcome fans back to the stadium.

 

did you send a response back? 

Have you spoken to the fans forum about mention this at the last meeting?

Edited September 14, 2020 by chaddyrovers

[Mattyblue]

So those fans without the internet/smart phones, which will be a fair few of our older supporters (and they make up a large part of our ST base), have been told ‘you’ve lost four games, no refunds, you should have used ifollow, oh and by the way we are turfing you out of the Jack Walker too’

Whatever the small print, those fans have had a raw deal, and I would wager many won’t be back...

[MarkBRFC]

See if anything is said at the fans forum, if there Is I imagine Waggott will just give the same answer and the topic will be dropped.

[arbitro]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

did you sent a response back? 

Have you spoken to the fans forum about mention this at the last meeting?

I have sent a response back. I haven't mentioned it anywhere else to be honest. And having seen Waggotts response today makes me think that bringing it up anywhere else will be futile. 

Did you get anything back for your request for a refund for the recent game where you paid but couldn't view it?

[arbitro]

3 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

So those fans without the internet/smart phones, which will be a fair few of our older supporters (and they make up a large part of our ST base), have been told ‘you’ve lost four games, no refunds, you should have used ifollow, oh and by the way we are turfing you out of the Jack Walker too’

Whatever the small print, those fans have had a raw deal, and I would wager many won’t be back...

That is the truth Matty. In what will be a real challenge shifting tickets Waggott has just made his job a lot more difficult. This link could be a bit tenuous but I heard he is considering retiring at the end of the season - maybe he just doesn't give a flying fart now.