England

[roversfan99]

17 minutes ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

 

I was going to say the same in an earlier post, but then I was thinking about Maldini, Cannavaro, Nesta & Panucci. Some defence. Even then it's not obvious to me which was better, which goes to show how well stocked we were, especially thinking of some of the players we had the likes of Carragher, King and Woodgate as 4th, 5th and 6th choice. 

 

I know the settled opinion on the Sven era was that we badly underperformed, and that's understandable given the players available, but I think the manner of our getting knocked out gets brushed under the carpet slightly too much in my view. Portugal in 2004, Campbell won that game fair and square in the 90 minutes before the goal being disallowed. They go on to reach a very winnable final vs Greece. Even in 2006, we came pretty close to winning that game with 10 men if I recall. People rightly talk about how we should've got more from a midfield that good, or were too mentally weak when it came to pens etc., but we were seriously unlucky at times too. 

 

I suppose the thing with tournament football is that unlike in a League, the best team doesnt necessarily always win, one off day against a big team and you are on the plane home.

[Exiled_Rover]

13 hours ago, K-Hod said:

I don’t get this argument at all. Sterling has consistently scored more goals than Rashford until this season. Even then, Rashford has a whopping one goal more than Sterling in the league (from seven more appearances)....

He'll take Sterling, but arguably he shouldn't. 

He's massively out of form and we're not desperate for his pace given our other options in the final third these days.

[Exiled_Rover]

On 24/05/2021 at 21:03, Ulrich said:

Why is no-one picking TAA, he's quality. Henderson needs to go as well and I also hope Bellingham gets selected.

I think mainly because he's quite a poor defender.

He's great going forward but I want my fullbacks to be able to defend first and foremost.

[Exiled_Rover]

1 hour ago, Kie_BRFC said:

Worst squad you've seen? It's better than the one we took to the last world cup for a start. If that front 4 played for any other country we'd be envious

I think the spine of the squad is weak, but you can get around that with certain formations. 

We've got a bevvy of attacking options thought - something we've lacked in the past.

[Admiral Nelsen]

1 minute ago, roversfan99 said:

I suppose the thing with tournament football is that unlike in a League, the best team doesnt necessarily always win, one off day against a big team and you are on the plane home.

 

Exactly this. And coupled with tournaments themselves only coming around every two years, a good crop of players can often have a fairly small window to strike while the iron is hot, so to speak. They take responsibility for things like Rooney's red card, or wilting when it comes to penalty shoot-outs, but the fine-margins and the sheer randomness you get in football matter so much more in knockout competitions.

 

Longer term, I look at England's lack of success in tournament football not too dissimilarly to Liverpool's barren years. Some periods when we've been miles away from being good enough. But others when we we've been very good and close to where we need to be. I think/hope we're about to enter another one of these phases now, so we just need to hope that they play near their best and hope that their luck is better than the good teams of the 90s and 2000s.

[CheshireRover]

1 hour ago, Exiled_Rover said:

I think mainly because he's quite a poor defender.

He's great going forward but I want my fullbacks to be able to defend first and foremost.

I’m not digging you out, but I saw this earlier. I think Trent is the best we have due to his versatility but I was shocked to see these stats.
 

https://twitter.com/joel_archie/status/1397145363916673029?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1397145363916673029|twgr^|twcon^s1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-40320892142202381041.ampproject.net%2F2105150310000%2Fframe.html

 

Link didn’t go how I expected, here are the stats:

Defensive statistics this season (league games only)

Tackle success:
Trent 57.9%
Walker 54.3%
Trippier 43.9%
James 38.8%

Dribbled past per 90:
Trent 0.71
Walker 0.74
James 1.14
Trippier 1.16

Ball recoveries per 90:
Trent 9.97
Trippier 8.87
Walker 8.66
James 8.18

Edited May 26, 2021 by CheshireRover

[roversfan99]

I do think that it further highlights the limitations of data, especially when comparing players in defensive positions.

The stats assume a natural consistency across the comparisons which doesnt exist. For example, Trippier plays in a totally different league. Alexander Arnold (and Robertson) both play in a back 4 but almost in a unique way in quite how forward they play and what their primary jobs are in the team. Reece James is often played as a wing back rather than in a back 4 although has recently played a few games as one of the 3 centre backs.

I think full backs are a very subjective area to judge upon. For example, is having the most tackles a good thing or does it indicate an increased likelihood of being caught of position? If for example Liverpool get caught out of position, would the fact that Alexander Arnold will likely be so far forward as per their tactics mean that he is less likely to be dribbled around as he is already so far forward?

Back to the England squad, I do hope that Southgate cuts 2 from the 4 in the extended squad rather than avoiding the tough decision and taking 3 or 4, as although all 4 have their merits, right back is not a position you need so many of.

[CheshireRover]

Can’t say I disagree with you to be fair.

I really like all 4 & AWB, it’s great that we have such depth there. FWIW I think he will take 3, as Walker can play CB in a 3. Then it will be Trippier and either/or from James & TAA. 

I wouldn’t disagree with that either myself, but I would say Trent has more ‘big game’ experience than James, and that may edge it, but also GS doesn’t seem to like TAA.

[speeeeeeedie]

2 hours ago, LeftWinger said:

Absolutely agree.

I always thought that G.Neville, Campbell, Ferdinand, A.Cole was as good a back four as any in the world at their peak. 

Not a chance you'd pick any of the current crop over the centre backs and full backs. I think Gary Neville would also have a strong case for a place.

Of the 4 Gary Neville would be first out. Ashley Cole was world class. The 4 used during that era; Ferdinand, Campbell, Terry, and King were all excellent defenders. 

England 04-06 had iffy keepers. David James in 04 and Paul Robinson in 06. You could have had the Italian back 4 admiral Nelsen mentioned yet they'd get a bit nervous with either of those 2 behind them.

Sven had a midfield with talent to spare but no balance. There wasn't a left sided midfielder in sight. Joe Cole did a job for a while but he wasn't a natural there.

I think that individually Sven's England had a better individual talent in his first 11 but for overall squad depth, balance, and camaraderie the current iteration is miles ahead. 

2 hours ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

 

I was going to say the same in an earlier post, but then I was thinking about Maldini, Cannavaro, Nesta & Panucci. Some defence. Even then it's not obvious to me which was better, which goes to show how well stocked we were, especially thinking of some of the players we had the likes of Carragher, King and Woodgate as 4th, 5th and 6th choice. 

 

I know the settled opinion on the Sven era was that we badly underperformed, and that's understandable given the players available, but I think the manner of our getting knocked out gets brushed under the carpet slightly too much in my view. Portugal in 2004, Campbell won that game fair and square in the 90 minutes before the goal being disallowed. They go on to reach a very winnable final vs Greece. Even in 2006, we came pretty close to winning that game with 10 men if I recall. People rightly talk about how we should've got more from a midfield that good, or were too mentally weak when it came to pens etc., but we were seriously unlucky at times too. 

 

Both squads got knocked out on penalties. I think that 06 was the better team. Rooney's idiocy, not bad luck, cost that side.

[Dreams of 1995]

The defenders we have now aren’t a brush on what we had in the 00s. They were top class to a man. Ledley King would walk into this back 4 at the moment for me. 
 

We are severely lacking a Sol Campbell. Neither Maguire nor Stones fill me with confidence. It is a banker that Stones will make a mistake in the tournament. The only unknown is whether it will cost us the game or not.

[Admiral Nelsen]

33 minutes ago, speeeeeeedie said:

Both squads got knocked out on penalties. I think that 06 was the better team. Rooney's idiocy, not bad luck, cost that side.

 

Yes, over time there have been plenty of examples of shooting ourselves in the foot to go along with some bad luck. Sometimes in the same game, like Beckham getting sent off and Campbell (again!) scoring a perfectly good goal against Argentina. Every country will have probably their own examples, but I'd be surprised if anybody's list is as long as ours!

Mainly agree that the 06 team was stronger too, although Scholes wasn't there in 06, which is a big loss even if he was starting on the left. There was a great interview with Sven on Sky a year or two ago where he made a case for playing him out of position. Wasn't totally convinced, but he was pretty persuasive. Pointed out that he occasionally was played out there for United too, so maybe that's overdone. 

One often forgotten area where we were slightly unlucky in 06 was that Owen got badly injured early on. In theory that should've been a very small window when both him and Rooney should've been near the top of their game, which sadly we never really saw. 

[LeftWinger]

25 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

 Ledley King would walk into this back 4 at the moment for me. 

And limp back out of it 5 minutes later.

I'm sure I've seen a few people refer to Ledley King as the best defender out of any of them, he was just constantly injured.

[Dreams of 1995]

2 minutes ago, LeftWinger said:

And limp back out of it 5 minutes later.

I'm sure I've seen a few people refer to Ledley King as the best defender out of any of them, he was just constantly injured.

He was awesome imo. A shame about his injuries. He was really quick too and as a kid I always tried to emulate him in trying to get infront of the attacker before the ball reached him. He was brilliant at taking it off their toes. 

[roverandout]

7 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

No chance of some of them! You think that Luke Shaw would dislodge Ashley Cole, and that Stones could dislodge 2 from Campbell, Ferdinand and Terry?! Gary Neville was as reliable a right back as you could wish to see too, none of the current crop would get in over that back 4.

I would agree with those who think that Rashford is overrated, ive never been his biggest fan, I prefer Sterling although hes been poor for a number of months, neither would start the tournament in my opinion. Mount has grown on me but there is no way that he dislodges Lampard, Scholes or Gerrard in an already overcrowded central midfield back then.

Going back, that England side was mainly lacking in goal and out wide, and Pickford is certainly no upgrade. I would put Sancho and Foden in who would be my first pick in those roles this summer.

Kane would obviously have a very good shout of starting, with Rooney and Owen it wouldnt be a guarantee but I would agree on Kane.

The 2004 England side also lacked depth in a few areas.

This England squad has far more depth.  U have to agree with that. I dont think stones or Shaw would get in that England team. 

[roversfan99]

10 minutes ago, roverandout said:

This England squad has far more depth.  U have to agree with that. I dont think stones or Shaw would get in that England team. 

Perhaps in certain areas, mainly out wide where we have loads of options. You think back to the centre backs back then and even central midfield with Gerrard, Scholes, Lampard, Carrick, Hargreaves, Butt etc, far better then.

[BlackburnEnd75]

5 hours ago, Admiral Nelsen said:

 

Yes, over time there have been plenty of examples of shooting ourselves in the foot to go along with some bad luck. Sometimes in the same game, like Beckham getting sent off and Campbell (again!) scoring a perfectly good goal against Argentina. Every country will have probably their own examples, but I'd be surprised if anybody's list is as long as ours!

Mainly agree that the 06 team was stronger too, although Scholes wasn't there in 06, which is a big loss even if he was starting on the left. There was a great interview with Sven on Sky a year or two ago where he made a case for playing him out of position. Wasn't totally convinced, but he was pretty persuasive. Pointed out that he occasionally was played out there for United too, so maybe that's overdone. 

One often forgotten area where we were slightly unlucky in 06 was that Owen got badly injured early on. In theory that should've been a very small window when both him and Rooney should've been near the top of their game, which sadly we never really saw. 

Scholes played a handful of games on the left for England around euro 2004. The Scholes on the left thing is a bit overexagerated.

Also Scholes's form in 06 meant he wouldn't have started ahead of lampard pr gerrard at that world cup.

[speeeeeeedie]

3 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Perhaps in certain areas, mainly out wide where we have loads of options. You think back to the centre backs back then and even central midfield with Gerrard, Scholes, Lampard, Carrick, Hargreaves, Butt etc, far better then.

Sven's teams were thin everywhere aside from central defence and central midfield. Yet Sven tried to shoehorn all his star midfielders into the side, and had to deal with a Ferdinand suspension/Campbell/King injuries. Up front if either Owen or Rooney got injured - which both of them did at separate tournaments - back ups were thin. Vassell or Walcott anyone?

Add in the Ferguson, and latterly Mourinho, driven club over country mantra that pitted the squad against each other and it is no wonder that they underachieved. 

You can chop and change any number of players in today's squad and not see a drop in quality.  

Edited May 26, 2021 by speeeeeeedie

[roverandout]

20 minutes ago, speeeeeeedie said:

Sven's teams were thin everywhere aside from central defence and central midfield. Yet Sven tried to shoehorn all his star midfielders into the side, and had to deal with a Ferdinand suspension/Campbell/King injuries. Up front if either Owen or Rooney got injured - which both of them did at separate tournaments - back ups were thin. Vassell or Walcott anyone?

Add in the Ferguson, and latterly Mourinho, driven club over country mantra that pitted the squad against each other and it is no wonder that they underachieved. 

You can chop and change any number of players in today's squad and not see a drop in quality.  

Real strength in depth.  We have 4 rightbacks that would walk into most national teams.  Not to mention awb. 2 excellent leftbacks. Top quality options out wide.  Up front the fact he left out ings and Bamford shows the quality up front.  Central midfield isn't as bad as people make out.  We also should have taken tomori ahead of Mings.  Hes been  outstanding for Milan.  Konsa has been excellent for villa too. Pickford is reliable and has been very good for Everton the last couple of months.  This is definitely the best strength in depth in my lifetime.  40% of epl players playing week in week out are English.  Which is a huge upturn

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

52 minutes ago, roverandout said:

Real strength in depth.  We have 4 rightbacks that would walk into most national teams.  Not to mention awb. 2 excellent leftbacks. Top quality options out wide.  Up front the fact he left out ings and Bamford shows the quality up front.  Central midfield isn't as bad as people make out.  We also should have taken tomori ahead of Mings.  Hes been  outstanding for Milan.  Konsa has been excellent for villa too. Pickford is reliable and has been very good for Everton the last couple of months.  This is definitely the best strength in depth in my lifetime.  40% of epl players playing week in week out are English.  Which is a huge upturn

Ings and Bamford are decent Premier League players but they’re not International standard strikers.

[roverandout]

3 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Ings and Bamford are decent Premier League players but they’re not International standard strikers.

Ings looked good when he played wales or Ireland can't remember which. Bamford hasn't played yet I think we should give them Time to prove themselves 

[Silas]

Rashford had an absolute stinker in the final tonight. 

It's only 1 game, but he has been inconsistent for a bit, and I'd be disappointed if he's a mainstay in the team this tournament. 

[roverandout]

3 minutes ago, Silas said:

Rashford had an absolute stinker in the final tonight. 

It's only 1 game, but he has been inconsistent for a bit, and I'd be disappointed if he's a mainstay in the team this tournament. 

Me too. I would start foden kane sancho. Hes been run into the ground by ogs. Still carrying an injury 

[Exiled_Rover]

22 hours ago, CheshireRover said:

I’m not digging you out, but I saw this earlier. I think Trent is the best we have due to his versatility but I was shocked to see these stats.
 

https://twitter.com/joel_archie/status/1397145363916673029?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1397145363916673029|twgr^|twcon^s1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-40320892142202381041.ampproject.net%2F2105150310000%2Fframe.html

 

Link didn’t go how I expected, here are the stats:

Defensive statistics this season (league games only)

Tackle success:
Trent 57.9%
Walker 54.3%
Trippier 43.9%
James 38.8%

Dribbled past per 90:
Trent 0.71
Walker 0.74
James 1.14
Trippier 1.16

Ball recoveries per 90:
Trent 9.97
Trippier 8.87
Walker 8.66
James 8.18

Tony Kroos would like a word. He abused Alexander-Armstrong in the Champions League. 

I'd take Wan-Bissaka over any of the above four, but I don't fill out a waistcoat quite like Southgate does, so what do I know?

[Exiled_Rover]

20 hours ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

The defenders we have now aren’t a brush on what we had in the 00s. They were top class to a man. Ledley King would walk into this back 4 at the moment for me. 
 

We are severely lacking a Sol Campbell. Neither Maguire nor Stones fill me with confidence. It is a banker that Stones will make a mistake in the tournament. The only unknown is whether it will cost us the game or not.

To be fair to Maguire, I liked the comment btl in the Guardian last night - Maguire never looks like an £80m CB when he's on the pitch, but he sure does when he's off it. 

That said, we were spoiled for choice at CB and CM under previous managers.

[joey_big_nose]

The big issue for the 2004 team (and all our teams 1998-2014) was a lack of width. We just didn't produce any good enough wide players. Had a few around the edge of the team - Kerion Dyer, Sean Wright-Phillips, Aaron Lennon - but they never really established themselves as top players.

In Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes, Joe Cole you had great players but players drawn to the centre of the pitch in the "number 10" space. It just got way too congested. And there was no one really "anchoring" the midfield as they were all forward minded. Even Beckham was quite a narrow right mid who wasn't interested in stretching the play. And further all those top players - none of them were really quick. The squad as a whole was imbalanced.

So I'd say while the 2020 squad is really lacking the defensive quality of the 2004 squad, and the top level experience of the midfield, it does have a big benefit in being a lot better balanced. There's a lot of players happy to play wide or narrow, in Declan Rice we seem to have a top defensive midfielder, and we have a lot of pace.