Derby V Rovers

[briansol]

I saw someone on the Derby forum said we've copied Leeds and are now playing like Leeds, and I think there is a lot of truth to it.

The biggest thing for me is that the new system works very well with the players we have. The front 3 and the midfield works very hard out of possesion and closes down in packs. Neither Newcastle or Derby could get out of their own half. Wycombe tried the direct route but the defence gobbled up everything and kept the pressure up. Johnson is very good at dropping back when the full-backs are attacking, in addition he is great in the air and a physical presence.

Attacking wise is such a difference because all 3 front have pace and can go past a player. If the opposition go forward, we can hit them on the break. Rothwell and Holtby has certainly benefited from their new roles. Rothwell has a great engine, and his bursting runs from central creates unbalance in their defensive lines and opens up the forward, e.g first goal Yesterday. Holtby is much fitter and a wonderful footballer who can keep the ball and create chances with his passing. Also very impressed with his defensive contribution, no cheating there. 

Also special mentioning to Williams, who might've been our best player so far, certainly in defence. 

Not worried about Dack fitting in. He's just a quality footballer who can easily play in different positions. I think he will come back in a more fit version and fight his way into the team. One thing I'm sure of, we shouldn't adapt the system to fit Dack. What we see now is we are getting the most of the sum of parts, rather than optimizing for the best part. 

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

If Dack was fit next week to start, would I put him in the team? No, we have just won 5 nil and 4 nil so of course not. Its 2 games though. Overall, is Dack a player that gets into the team over Brereton, Dolan, Rothwell and indeed I would say even the impressive Holtby? Yes. There is a debate as to how he fits in, there are a few possible answers, but it should be a headache that Mowbray welcomes, not an inconvenience. 

Some people IMO have forgotten quite how good Dack is. He isnt a League 1 plodder whom we are better off without, hes one of the best attacking players in the division. His return should be one we can be excited about, yes theres a slim chance that the injury will have affected him, but he has said during that he is in great shape generally so maybe he will come back even better.

Can Dack play the role that Holtby and Rothwell do in the midfield 3? 

what are these possible answers? 

No-one has forgotten the major part Dack played in Rovers success under Mowbray, but we have change our style and formation now, and the big question is can Dack fit into this or was this done cos Mowbray and Rovers expect Dack to go in coming months. 

I would say until Dack in playing in competitive game of football he won't really know whether the knee will affect him long term or his game or his mentally.  

[roversfan99]

Just now, chaddyrovers said:

Can Dack play the role that Holtby and Rothwell do in the midfield 3? 

what are these possible answers? 

No-one has forgotten the major part Dack played in Rovers success under Mowbray, but we have change our style and formation now, and the big question is can Dack fit into this or was this done cos Mowbray and Rovers expect Dack to go in coming months. 

I would say until Dack in playing in competitive game of football he won't really know whether the knee will affect him long term or his game or his mentally.  

It goes without saying that the discussion is on the assumption that he returns without being massively hindered by the injury, to which there is no reason to think that he will return as a pale shadow of his former self.

Dack is technically as good as we have, hes not some League 1 slogger, or a player reliant on us playing direct, and I am sure that Mowbray appreciates how good he is and tries to fit him in upon his return. Can he fit into the style, a higher press and more reliance on playing the ball on the ground? Absolutely, in fact that will suit a player like him more.

In terms of system, it might take a bit of trial and error to figure out his best role, but hes our best player, so he gets into the team all being well. And once he does, I am sure that you will soon revert to justifying his place!

[chaddyrovers]

Just now, roversfan99 said:

It goes without saying that the discussion is on the assumption that he returns without being massively hindered by the injury, to which there is no reason to think that he will return as a pale shadow of his former self.

Dack is technically as good as we have, hes not some League 1 slogger, or a player reliant on us playing direct, and I am sure that Mowbray appreciates how good he is and tries to fit him in upon his return. Can he fit into the style, a higher press and more reliance on playing the ball on the ground? Absolutely, in fact that will suit a player like him more.

In terms of system, it might take a bit of trial and error to figure out his best role, but hes our best player, so he gets into the team all being well. And once he does, I am sure that you will soon revert to justifying his place!

on the first point, Have you ever broken a bone or had sporting injury? 

 

You think he is our best player were other people think he isn't. if I had to choose between keeping Dack or Armstrong, I would choose Armstrong every time. Cos of his pace and finishing. Thats no disservice to Dack cos he is a pleasure to watch in a Rovers shirt. See I don't think he will suit our new style or formation actually. Neal made a number of points yesterday post match about Dack which I agree with. We have got the team and current players playing this 4-3-3 system very well and we found Rothwell's role in the team and where he is best suited. Same with Holtby. I wouldn't be changing the formation or style for Dack to come back into. 

You say trial and Error to figure out his best role? I'm sorry we haven't got games or time to figure any of that out. Do you really this we have time or games for this?

[roversfan99]

7 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

on the first point, Have you ever broken a bone or had sporting injury? 

 

You think he is our best player were other people think he isn't. if I had to choose between keeping Dack or Armstrong, I would choose Armstrong every time. Cos of his pace and finishing. Thats no disservice to Dack cos he is a pleasure to watch in a Rovers shirt. See I don't think he will suit our new style or formation actually. Neal made a number of points yesterday post match about Dack which I agree with. We have got the team and current players playing this 4-3-3 system very well and we found Rothwell's role in the team and where he is best suited. Same with Holtby. I wouldn't be changing the formation or style for Dack to come back into. 

You say trial and Error to figure out his best role? I'm sorry we haven't got games or time to figure any of that out. Do you really this we have time or games for this?

Why does it matter if I have had an injury? He hasnt broken a bone either. I never said that he will DEFINITELY come back as good as new, but that I am debating on the assumption that he will return as he was before. Many players have returned from serious injuries, it might take time and patience but theres no reason to expect him to not make a full recovery. If he doesnt, then obviously it loosens the argument that he should play for us.

We dont have to choose between Armstrong or Dack. We have 2 very good players, we should be trying to get the best out of both of them. The two havent really played together without Graham also being in the side which totally changed our style of play. Theres no reason that Armstrong should be put out by Dacks return, take his goal v Forest last season that came from a brilliant Dack pass, Armstrong should be excited by having a player of such quality.

If you dont think he will fit in the team, fair enough. I certainly do, he is full of energy, and he is technically very, very good, so the style should suit him well. He is also very good on the counter attack, to which we have done regularly in these last 2 goals, including both of Dolan's goals, because he might not be lightning fast but he isnt slow either, and he makes the correct decisions on the counter attack, take his goal at Peterborough the other year. And he likes to press high, take his goal v Wigan in the 3 nil win, he was the one to capitalise on a mistake to nip in and score.

 With my trial and error comment regarding the formation, it is not like I am advocating sticking in some kids, it involves putting him in the role that Mowbray feels will best suit him. Assuming that the 4-3-3 is a consistent success, there are a few options, we choose the one which makes the most sense, but with the flexibility to try one of the other 2 ideas if need be.

1. Put him as one of the 2 CM's ahead of the sitter, possibly at the expense of Rothwell. If Rothwell deserves to play more than Brereton or Dolan at that point, he can play in the front 3.

2. Put him as the central striker, moving Armstrong wide. Obviously there are positives and negatives to that.

3. Play him coming in from the left. That would take a bit of flexibility because he is not a wide man.

Im not gonna get into a detailed debate on which id do and what each positive and negative is to those ideas.

You have also assumed that because of 2 very good wins, that the 4-3-3 will lead to the players all remaining in excellent form and continuing to win games. If they do, by all means it reduces the speed of which Dack will get back in.

As I said, if and when Dack does come back into the team, then I am sure you will support Mowbray in doing so, so its a fairly worthless debate anyway. But these are just my general thoughts on the matter. People have short memories regarding Dack. He is a fantastic player and his return should be something that excites us, not inconveniences us.

 

[ben_the_beast]

Johnson is better in a 3, Holtby is better in a 3, Rothwell is better in a 3. They are a bit of a traditional sitting player in Johnson with a 6 slightly ahead of him with more of a passing technical skillset in Holtby and an 8 in Rothwell providing real drive. They all bring different skillsets and compliment each other perfectly. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

30 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

on the first point, Have you ever broken a bone or had sporting injury? 

 

You think he is our best player were other people think he isn't. if I had to choose between keeping Dack or Armstrong, I would choose Armstrong every time. Cos of his pace and finishing. Thats no disservice to Dack cos he is a pleasure to watch in a Rovers shirt. See I don't think he will suit our new style or formation actually. Neal made a number of points yesterday post match about Dack which I agree with. We have got the team and current players playing this 4-3-3 system very well and we found Rothwell's role in the team and where he is best suited. Same with Holtby. I wouldn't be changing the formation or style for Dack to come back into. 

You say trial and Error to figure out his best role? I'm sorry we haven't got games or time to figure any of that out. Do you really this we have time or games for this?

The old Dack could easily play the same role as Brererton played yesterday. Picking it up around the half way line and running with the ball. He may not cover the ground as quickly as Brererton but he's much more able to beat an opponent with the ball at his feet.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Just now, ben_the_beast said:

Johnson is better in a 3, Holtby is better in a 3, Rothwell is better in a 3. They are a bit of a traditional sitting player in Johnson with a 6 slightly ahead of him with more of a passing technical skillset in Holtby and an 8 in Rothwell providing real drive. They all bring different skillsets and compliment each other perfectly. 

I always used to say in a midfield three you needed a good defensive player, a good attacking player and a player that can do a bit of both those roles.

[USABlue]

7 hours ago, CraigF said:

Jason Steele. That pass to Emmes against Wigan. But everything else in regards to keeping the ball out of the net, he was terrible. 

A complete one off.

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

The old Dack could easily play the same role as Brereton played yesterday. Picking it up around the half way line and running with the ball. He may not cover the ground as quickly as Brereton but he's much more able to beat an opponent with the ball at his feet.

I suggested this role last week for him. playing left or right of the 3 man front line. I would keep Armstrong in the 9 role

1 hour ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I always used to say in a midfield three you needed a good defensive player, a good attacking player and a player that can do a bit of both those roles.

Which role did you play out of the 3? thanks in advances ?

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

Why does it matter if I have had an injury? He hasnt broken a bone either. I never said that he will DEFINITELY come back as good as new, but that I am debating on the assumption that he will return as he was before. Many players have returned from serious injuries, it might take time and patience but theres no reason to expect him to not make a full recovery. If he doesnt, then obviously it loosens the argument that he should play for us.

Thats your assumption tho. I have seen plenty of football(sport) players have major long term injuries have to adapt their games like Shearer or Owen, Del Piero and Baggio when they came back from injuries they have to adapt themselves. 

Have you look into what ACL repair takes? here a video on it. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ANTERIOR+CRUCIATE+LIGAMENT&docid=608026773554726965&mid=616C1892943DF39A9745616C1892943DF39A9745&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

 

 

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

You have also assumed that because of 2 very good wins, that the 4-3-3 will lead to the players all remaining in excellent form and continuing to win games. If they do, by all means it reduces the speed of which Dack will get back in.

Its 5 games this seasons which in each game we have got better and performed very well in every game. You might just want to focus on the wins instead of looking at the 5 performances and the style and formation suits our current players

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

As I said, if and when Dack does come back into the team, then I am sure you will support Mowbray in doing so, so its a fairly worthless debate anyway. But these are just my general thoughts on the matter. People have short memories regarding Dack. He is a fantastic player and his return should be something that excites us, not inconveniences u

No one has a short memories regarding Dack so why keep posting this? We are saying our team as moved on from Dack and Graham style and we aren't sure Dack suits the current way we are playing. We all enjoyed Dack being here and the performances and goals he has produced since joining us. 

No I won't support Mowbray if he bring Dack and messing around the team and we don't get the results and performances that we had this season. 

[philipl]

That record of scoring more goals than any other English league club in the first three games of a season this millennium lasted all of 26 hours.

Leicester have got 12

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

40 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

I suggested this role last week for him. playing left or right of the 3 man front line. I would keep Armstrong in the 9 role

Which role did you play out of the 3? thanks in advances ?

Me, the defensive one. I could run all day and I liked a tackle. Get the ball and give it to the other two lads. I could run past people but beating them in a dribble wasn't my strong point.

[Atko's Engine]

20 minutes ago, philipl said:

That record of scoring more goals than any other English league club in the first three games of a season this millennium lasted all of 26 hours.

Leicester have got 12

If we'd have been given 3 penalties, we would have scored more too. ?

[Ricky]

1 hour ago, Atko's Engine said:

If we'd have been given 3 penalties, we would have scored more too. ?

They’ve had 4 pennos haven’t they?

[Atko's Engine]

5 minutes ago, Ricky said:

They’ve had 4 pennos haven’t they?

Dunno but they scored 3 today. 

[mhead]

3 hours ago, philipl said:

That record of scoring more goals than any other English league club in the first three games of a season this millennium lasted all of 26 hours.

Leicester have got 12

But Phil in August 1958 we won our first 3 matches after promotion to the top League....5-1 (Newcastle...away)....5-0 (leicester City...home)....then Spurs 5-0 at home. Does that count?

Thanks to M.Jackman: Essential History.

[joey_big_nose]

Just watched the whole game back. What a tremendous performance. We really should have scored a few more.

When I think back to the games in June post lockdown when we were playing 433 but getting beat by Millwall and Wigan etc and compare to how we are playing now it's  night and day. Everyone feels in the right role (no Bennett at left back, or Holtby as false nine), losing Graham and Downing allows us to press properly, and obviously Dolan is a vast upgrade compared to Gallagher or Samuel on right wing.

Kaminski - is exceptional with his feet. Like a third defender, classic sweeper keeper. He retains the ball so well compared to any keeper we've had in the Championship. Looks like he could be better than Raya to me but let's see how it goes.

Williams - much maligned but won everything and used the ball so well when he had it. Looks a top defender. Ayala will struggle to get in.

Lenihan, JRC, Nyambe, Bell - all had decent games with very little to do. Lenihan had one exceptional block at the start of the game.

Rothwell - phenomenal all-round game. Looked Premier League class. Huge engine, put his foot in, pressed relentlessly and also used the ball excellently. A complete peformance. Left side of a 433 is the perfect role for him. Could be a big season for him.

Holtby - neat, keeps things moving, always provides an option. Has defence splitting passes in him, superb one for the fourth goal. Looks much better in a deeper role than in the front three.

Johnson - physically dominant. Used the ball well under pressure (which has always been his weak point, but he was very composed). Two well taken goals, first was a thunderbolt. Because everybody is working their nuts off to close down his lack of mobility is not exposed. 

Dolan - clearly destined for the top. As obvious a first rate player as when Duff and Phil Jones first turned out. It's incredible Preston let him go. Are they on drugs?

Armstrong - finishing was poor but still very dangerous. Got a good goal. Should really have got a hat trick.

Brereton - I have really thought he is useless since he's been at the club. In fact I think I called him "the worst player I have ever seen for Rovers". However I am beginning to see that I was wrong about that. In the quite unusual niche of his game he is becoming very effective. He beat his full back in probably 70% of duels yesterday. Physically dominated him, outpaced him. Yes his shooting was generally poor but he did create Dolans goal off the post. Crucially he held up and layed off the ball well. Gave it away very infrequently, and won a ridiculous amount of free kicks. If he can find some shooting boots he could come good. You know what I realised - he is basically Emile Heskey.... 

Derby were woeful, and despite being thrashed by us in the first 15 minutes seemed to stick with the same tippy tally football where we just hounded them. Daft.

I love the way our front three and midfield three swap around positions and the full backs play as wingers while the GK forms a back three with the CBs. It's total football nicked straight from Liverpool and it's actually working for us. Absolute madness.

Really really looking forward to Cardiff. Same team, Nyambe for JRC who will be injured I suspect. Let's enjoy this season, it's going to be a lot of fun. Reckon when we play a decent team who like to be direct things will get tougher, but lets trust this system and players and ride it out even if we get a few poor results along the way!

Oh - and huge kudos to Tony for implementing such a radical plan. And all this with Dack, Travis, Gallagher, Evans out. Wow.

[den]

Dack is an exceptionally talented player at this level, absolutely no doubt. For individual ability he’s probably the most talented of all.

For me though, the question shouldn’t be “is he a better player than so-so”? It’s got to be “will he improve team performances, or will team performances suffer in comparison to where they are, or where they’re likely to be?” It’s a question I always asked about another fans favourite. Over a season, team performances are what will bring you success, not the form of any individual.
 

For now, Dack would have to wait. 

[only2garners]

40 minutes ago, mhead said:

But Phil in August 1958 we won our first 3 matches after promotion to the top League....5-1 (Newcastle...away)....5-0 (leicester City...home)....then Spurs 5-0 at home. Does that count?

Thanks to M.Jackman: Essential History.

No mead. That was last millennium. The record was for this one, all of 20 years.

[47er]

9 hours ago, K-Hod said:

Whatever it is we are doing, we need to keep doing it

I think the new intensity is the key. We used to take forever to get from one end of the pitch to another. We sat back, we didn't stop opponents in their own half. I believe this is the big difference. It means we have to include the ballplayers who can cope going forward at speed and it means keeping very fit.

We will get injuries of the muscle strain/tear variety eg Travis, Rankin-Costello so a bigger squad is essential unless we can safely rely on the young ones.

[philipl]

1 hour ago, mhead said:

But Phil in August 1958 we won our first 3 matches after promotion to the top League....5-1 (Newcastle...away)....5-0 (leicester City...home)....then Spurs 5-0 at home. Does that count?

Thanks to M.Jackman: Essential History.

This millennium started on 1 January 2000.

[Sparks Rover]

52 minutes ago, 47er said:

I think the new intensity is the key. We used to take forever to get from one end of the pitch to another.

Our best team goal last season was just that, and finished by Dack who wasn't slouching.....

If we are interested in promotion as a club, Dack stays.  We ain't going through the season with no injuries and winning 4/5. Dack will need to prove himself and it could align perfectly.  Need a left back though

Edited September 27, 2020 by Sparks Rover

[tonygreenbank]

10 hours ago, joey_big_nose said:

Just watched the whole game back. What a tremendous performance. We really should have scored a few more.

When I think back to the games in June post lockdown when we were playing 433 but getting beat by Millwall and Wigan etc and compare to how we are playing now it's  night and day. Everyone feels in the right role (no Bennett at left back, or Holtby as false nine), losing Graham and Downing allows us to press properly, and obviously Dolan is a vast upgrade compared to Gallagher or Samuel on right wing.

Kaminski - is exceptional with his feet. Like a third defender, classic sweeper keeper. He retains the ball so well compared to any keeper we've had in the Championship. Looks like he could be better than Raya to me but let's see how it goes.

Williams - much maligned but won everything and used the ball so well when he had it. Looks a top defender. Ayala will struggle to get in.

Lenihan, JRC, Nyambe, Bell - all had decent games with very little to do. Lenihan had one exceptional block at the start of the game.

Rothwell - phenomenal all-round game. Looked Premier League class. Huge engine, put his foot in, pressed relentlessly and also used the ball excellently. A complete peformance. Left side of a 433 is the perfect role for him. Could be a big season for him.

Holtby - neat, keeps things moving, always provides an option. Has defence splitting passes in him, superb one for the fourth goal. Looks much better in a deeper role than in the front three.

Johnson - physically dominant. Used the ball well under pressure (which has always been his weak point, but he was very composed). Two well taken goals, first was a thunderbolt. Because everybody is working their nuts off to close down his lack of mobility is not exposed. 

Dolan - clearly destined for the top. As obvious a first rate player as when Duff and Phil Jones first turned out. It's incredible Preston let him go. Are they on drugs?

Armstrong - finishing was poor but still very dangerous. Got a good goal. Should really have got a hat trick.

Brereton - I have really thought he is useless since he's been at the club. In fact I think I called him "the worst player I have ever seen for Rovers". However I am beginning to see that I was wrong about that. In the quite unusual niche of his game he is becoming very effective. He beat his full back in probably 70% of duels yesterday. Physically dominated him, outpaced him. Yes his shooting was generally poor but he did create Dolans goal off the post. Crucially he held up and layed off the ball well. Gave it away very infrequently, and won a ridiculous amount of free kicks. If he can find some shooting boots he could come good. You know what I realised - he is basically Emile Heskey.... 

Derby were woeful, and despite being thrashed by us in the first 15 minutes seemed to stick with the same tippy tally football where we just hounded them. Daft.

I love the way our front three and midfield three swap around positions and the full backs play as wingers while the GK forms a back three with the CBs. It's total football nicked straight from Liverpool and it's actually working for us. Absolute madness.

Really really looking forward to Cardiff. Same team, Nyambe for JRC who will be injured I suspect. Let's enjoy this season, it's going to be a lot of fun. Reckon when we play a decent team who like to be direct things will get tougher, but lets trust this system and players and ride it out even if we get a few poor results along the way!

Oh - and huge kudos to Tony for implementing such a radical plan. And all this with Dack, Travis, Gallagher, Evans out. Wow.

Excellent post. In agreement with all of that. For supporters of a certain age could Dolan be the modern Bryan Douglas? It was amazing watching his movement and quick feet. I think he’s probably quicker than Dougie. What an asset we’ve got!

I hope we can maintain that intensity throughout the season because it’s thrilling to watch.

I’m glad Bell had a better game but what about the gloves! In September?

Edited September 28, 2020 by tonygreenbank

[Roverthechimp]

10 hours ago, joey_big_nose said:

 

Brereton.... - You know what I realised - he is basically Emile Heskey.... 

Sorry for the huge edit but this actually made me spit out my tea laughing ????