Rovers v QPR Sat 7th November

[Dreams of 1995]

If you are 17 and pushing on the doors of Liverpool, getting first time experience in the Championship week in week out, you are only going to develop. Whilst I agree Phillipl is prone to the drama he's probably not wrong in saying he'll be a world-wide star one day!

[Mattyblue]

We can’t possibly tell if he’s going to be a world star when he’s playing for us in the second division.

He could well be a David Beckham-esque loanee or he could be a Jack Wilshire or Jermaine Pennant who were lauded as the next big thing in the game at 17.

 

[roversfan99]

It will be interesting to see if he even has a long term future at Liverpool. Rhian Brewster was seen as the next big thing and excelled at Championship level yet the standard required to become even a Liverpool squad man is so high that they were happy to sell him for big money to another Premier League club.

[Admiral Nelsen]

Just now, Mattyblue said:

We can’t possibly tell if he’s going to be a world star when he’s playing for us in the second division.

He could well be a David Beckham-esque loanee or he could be a Jack Wilshire or Jermaine Pennant who were lauded as the next big thing in the game at 17.

 

True enough, but equally you could argue that it's only injuries and/or a bad attitude which prevented those two from being global stars. Certainly Wilshere had all the ability. 

I think it's fair to say that he is showing the sort of ability you would associate with a top future international aged 17. Probably even beyond that. 

[Mattyblue]

Exactly. The actual talent is only part of what makes a top end career.

Commitment, not letting the riches and hangers on turn your head, avoiding injury etc.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

We can’t possibly tell if he’s going to be a world star when he’s playing for us in the second division.

He could well be a David Beckham-esque loanee or he could be a Jack Wilshire or Jermaine Pennant who were lauded as the next big thing in the game at 17.

 

And whilst Jack Wilshire didn't go as far as people hoped, at his peak he was known around at the world for sure. He played for England quite a bit, had a big reputation and played for one of the planets biggest clubs for several seasons.

[Mattyblue]

And he’s without a club at 28. I was using him as example of players not fulfilling their potential when lauded, though if Elliott gets the caps and cash that Wilshire has he’ll have done well - and due to a plethora of reasons we really can’t say that he’ll get close at 17.

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by Mattyblue

[Sparks Rover]

38 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

And he’s without a club at 28. I was using him as example of players not fulfilling their potential when lauded, though if Elliott gets the caps and cash that Wilshire has he’ll have done well - and due to a plethora of reasons we really can’t say that he’ll get close at 17.

 

For me, its all about what he's like when we are losing or backs against the wall.  I'll always remember Duffer coming through in a poor premier league team, stood out a mile for his endeavour and dribbling.   We need to see that from Elliot if he wants to become one of the very best.

[Leonard Venkhater]

4 hours ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

If I've told him once I've told him a million times not to exaggerate.

We're going up as f***** champions!

[DeeCee]

Tbh there are loads of top footballers, look at the wages and lifestyle of any Prem club player. Many will not be remembered as such mind.

[philipl]

Glad to have sparked a debate.

I said he could- not he would.

There are perhaps half a dozen 17/18 year olds in world football you would rate ahead of Harvey today. You will be really struggling to name more.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

19 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

For me, its all about what he's like when we are losing or backs against the wall.  I'll always remember Duffer coming through in a poor premier league team, stood out a mile for his endeavour and dribbling.   We need to see that from Elliot if he wants to become one of the very best.

A pal of mine was a scout at 'City. He'd only ever watch players when they were playing away. Like you say- it's what they play like when they're up against it. Do they step up or do they go into their shell ? Do they rally the troops or do they start sulking and feeling sorry for themselves ?

[Sparks Rover]

Just now, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

A pal of mine was a scout at 'City. He'd only ever watch players when they were playing away. Like you say- it's what they play like when they're up against it. Do they step up or do they go into their shell ? Do they rally the troops or do they start sulking and feeling sorry for themselves ?

I was watching my lads school team once beat another school 15-1 in the rain and wind.  On the other side one young lad was still trying and running full pelt even at 15, what an attitude and a good player.  I picked him up for the district/town team when his teacher never even sent him to trials because he saw them all as rubbish..

First game v Preston schoolboys he was scouted by the nobbers head of recruitment and signed for their academy ?.

Edited November 10, 2020 by Sparks Rover

[Bbrovers2288]

On 08/11/2020 at 19:50, Hasta said:

If you are saying one on one's will hold Armstrong back from being in the top class Aguero, Ibra, Shearer, Messi, Ronaldo bracket, then I think there's far more to his games he needs to improve upon.  

 

 

Nope saying the step up to the premiership 

[Bbrovers2288]

On 08/11/2020 at 09:30, tomphil said:

That Gallagher one is a wild comparison though and maybe world class would've been a better term for the previous point.

Definitely not that but as far as English strikers go Cole had proven himself top class for a number of years. You might not end up at little old Blackburn post Jack if you're a worldie but you wouldn't have been one of Man Us main strikers for a number of years if you weren't Top Class either.

You pay for what you get if you know what you are doing. We got what we paid for. Fergie was a ruthless manager not much of the sentimental stuff there. When they were around 30 ish he usually moved them on.

Point about gallagher was just because we paid a handsome sum it doesn’t guarantee anything. Proof is in the pudding. I wouldn’t put Cole as top class, in the same I wouldn’t put yorke, jordi, bebo, numerous other United strikers through the years. Good strikers, not top class. Throwing the term about far too loosely, much as folk use the term legend nowadays 

[Hasta]

6 hours ago, Bbrovers2288 said:

Nope saying the step up to the premiership 

But you said it would stop him being a top striker. When I said it didnt stop Cole you said he wasnt a 'top striker'.

Now you are backpeddling a bit claiming it will stop him stepping up to the Premier League. So, again, it didnt stop Cole.

[Dreams of 1995]

Well, let's put it this way about the great Andy Cole.

Premier League goals:

Shearer 260

Rooney 208

Cole 187

Aguero 180

Lampard 177

Henry 175

Fowler 163

Defoe 162

Kane 150

Owen 150

That is the current "top 10".

If you can name me a player in there that isn't a top class striker / scorer then fair play to you. 

If Aguero, Kane, Lampard and Owen were/are all world class then so was Andy Cole!

Edited November 12, 2020 by Dreams of 1995

[DeeCee]

Surprised Van Nistleroy (spelling) isn't in there or even Berbatov.

[BlackburnEnd75]

37 minutes ago, DeeCee said:

Surprised Van Nistleroy (spelling) isn't in there or even Berbatov.

He didn't make it to 100 goals. Only here for 5 seasons, 4 of which he scored 20+ goals

[Bbrovers2288]

19 hours ago, Hasta said:

But you said it would stop him being a top striker. When I said it didnt stop Cole you said he wasnt a 'top striker'.

Now you are backpeddling a bit claiming it will stop him stepping up to the Premier League. So, again, it didnt stop Cole.

Eh? Have no idea what your saying here. 
 

armstrong has weaknesses that will stop him making the step up both to the premier and a top striker

andy Cole was not a top striker 

the end 

[philipl]

Andy Cole and Adam Armstrong both emerged from Newcastle's youth set up.

Their career trajectories to date have been very different.

At 23, Cole was easily one of the best and most feared strikers in the Premier League and had been for three or four seasons.

At 23,  Armstrong has just developed into one of the best and most feared strikers in the Championship and for the past three or four seasons it looked like it might not happen for him.

I really hope Arma continues the remarkable development he has enjoyed in 2020. Some strikers do develop relatively late - look at Vardy.

Brereton could be a similar case in point.

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, philipl said:

Andy Cole and Adam Armstrong both emerged from Newcastle's youth set up.

You are wrong that Cole emerged from Newcastle's youth set up. He came through at Arsenal's youth set up and had a spell at Bristol City before Keegan signed him for Newcastle 

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

3 hours ago, philipl said:

At 23, Cole was easily one of the best and most feared strikers in the Premier League and had been for three or four seasons.

He only joined Newcastle at 22 and had only played in the Championship before then with Bristol City and Fulham. 

edit: Fulham were actually in the 3rd Div when he played for them.

3 hours ago, philipl said:

At 23,  Armstrong has just developed into one of the best and most feared strikers in the Championship and for the past three or four seasons it looked like it might not happen for him.

He hadn't been played consistently as a striker until this year (apart from his season at Cov where he scored regularly)

Edited November 13, 2020 by Hoochie Bloochie Mama

[Hasta]

10 hours ago, Bbrovers2288 said:

Eh? Have no idea what your saying here. 

Ok. I'll slow it down for you.

You said one on one finishing would stop Armstrong being a 'top striker'.

I pointed out Andy Cole wasnt the best one on one but he was a top striker. You said Cole wasnt a top striker. I said that if your expecting Armstrong to be Ibra, Aguero etc.. thats a bit unfair, to which you said-

On 12/11/2020 at 01:16, Bbrovers2288 said:

Nope saying the step up to the premiership 

So we are back to the original point that it didnt stop Andy Cole, who was without doubt a great Premier League striker, even if not a 'top' striker by your definition.

Edited November 13, 2020 by Hasta

[bazza]

I didn't realise that Andy Cole played for Burnley as well as Rovers; 13 appearances in 2008.