Blackburn Rovers - The incredible story of the Venky's turbulent ownership

[A Northern Horde...]

10 hours ago, glen9mullan said:

Fake/citezenship/ passports - Formica, a recipe in Italy.

Hidden work permits in drawers at Ewood - Shaw/Agnew - leaving rovers with a decimated medical team - whilst they played King of the castle.

Kean's contract written by himself, with ludicrous bonus and a hefty personal loan off rovers for himself

Kentaro massive business associate in Venkys pharmaceutical business (this has always bugged me, that relationship of the people who were in Kentaro continues) Yet its still laid out they were naive. Anderson a snake and well out of the picture, but he was never the pied piper, he was just allowed to be one of many lunatics in the asylum. It goes much deeper than him and not on these shores.

Why did they get away with it and there will be no retribution? Simple Kentaro were one of the FA's biggest Financial partner/sponsor, with their support massive with our own national team. 95% of gagging orders were issued by our own FA as they knew this was much bigger than Blackburn rovers, and would have had  lasting damaging implications to the administration who govern our english game.

Regardless of the current climate, £100 million plus later spent, the day they darkened our door, was the day the heart was ripped out of the club. Whatever the future holds, the club will never have that beating heart of being the pillar of our community as long as they own this club. Many say we should forgive, be grateful, we would be no more without them etc.  I'D RATHER PUT PINS IN MY EYES

 

To be honest I wish this thread had never materialised...it brings back such angst and pain it's untrue.The supporter base ended up fractured and decimated like never before as a consequence.

At the time the feeling was one of ever increasing helplessness and isolation as the Club was dragged backwards through the mud and humiliated.Our intelligence being insulted as:

•Singh telling the attending fans at the King George's Hall seminar to 'shut up and listen' to his clueless diatribe.

•Keane openly goading the travelling supporters at Wigan.

•Protesting fans having the piss taken out of them by sections of the football media.

•Listening to our new owners admit to being 'confused'

 

Our famous old club reduced to an absolute Circus that I will never forget nor forgive.

[Vinjay]

11 hours ago, glen9mullan said:

Regardless of the current climate, £100 million plus later spent, the day they darkened our door, was the day the heart was ripped out of the club. Whatever the future holds, the club will never have that beating heart of being the pillar of our community as long as they own this club. Many say we should forgive, be grateful, we would be no more without them etc.  I'D RATHER PUT PINS IN MY EYES

There are fans who died hating these idiots.

Wouldn't give Harris too much credence. Another FUP lover.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Vinjay

[47er]

10 hours ago, ben_the_beast said:

Personally i think we shouldn't be as harsh on the venkys as we are. I know in the eyes of many thats an awful thing to say in the eyes of many. If we blame anyone we should blame the Walker trust for selling without doing due diligence. Given the fact they had what they had because of Jack, they really should have. Both Venkys and us had our pants pulled down. I genuinely think credit to them for sticking around. True they made some awful choices early on. Its cost them just as much as its cost us. It was ridiculous. We suffered. They suffered. Do I trust them to make good football decision if Mowbray wasnt here. I'd be worried. But I do think they deserve some credit for their continued support. 

Oh I do blame the Walker Trust (so-called), however in no way shape or form does that let Venkys off the hook.

[Sparks Rover]

On 12/11/2020 at 22:08, Herbie6590 said:

SPORF & Nick Harris - Football Uncovered -

Episode 1: The incredible story of the Venky's turbulent ownership

Podcast link: https://urlgeni.us/spotify/UNCOVERED_ROVERS

Introducing Football Uncovered, a new investigative podcast series from SPORF. 

Together with Sporting Intelligence's Nick Harris we’re shedding light on some of the most notorious tales of football ownership.

Episode One is a story of crafty middle men, questionable agent fees, relegation and renaissance, Ronaldinho, Raul and Beckham - this is the story of Blackburn Rovers' controversial owners, The Venky's.

Sporting Intelligence's Nick Harris taps into his unprecedented access to the key figures in the ordeal, sharing previously untold first-hand stories of the incredible and downright bizarre events that have unfolded throughout the Venky’s era.

Thread shouls be " The tragic story....." its  not incredible as its happening to lots of clubs.

[Stuart]

2 hours ago, A Northern Horde... said:

 

To be honest I wish this thread had never materialised...it brings back such angst and pain it's untrue.The supporter base ended up fractured and decimated like never before as a consequence.

At the time the feeling was one of ever increasing helplessness and isolation as the Club was dragged backwards through the mud and humiliated.Our intelligence being insulted as:

•Singh telling the attending fans at the King George's Hall seminar to 'shut up and listen' to his clueless diatribe.

•Keane openly goading the travelling supporters at Wigan.

•Protesting fans having the piss taken out of them by sections of the football media.

•Listening to our new owners admit to being 'confused'

 

Our famous old club reduced to an absolute Circus that I will never forget nor forgive.

I agree that it’s pretty unhelpful to keep picking at this scab. I can’t believe it’s been 10 years of this lot being here though. There’s hardly a decade of highlights to look back on.

That said, I do get quite upset at the idea that the efforts of Glen et al, and the few hundred protesters, are somehow responsible for a fractured fanbase.

Not enough people would stand against Kean, let alone put pressure on Venkys, and the vast majority did nothing.

Should this minority have simply stood with the majority and supported Kean and what he was doing? Would that have helped? Would that have avoided the fanbase being fractured? And would the fanbase not being fractured have kept us up? Because it was ultimately relegation that halved the fanbase (plastics who were only here to watch PL football on the cheap jumping ship), and it was Venkys sticking by their nice man thereafter that made the silent protesters walk away, most of them never to return. (The fact they didn’t help with protests is the most unforgivable part).

Once the destruction began, a fractured fanbase was inevitable. I really really wish there had been a sizeable majority who would have fought for the club. We could have made a huge statement walking from the town hall to Ewood. It really was very very little to ask of fans to show their displeasure on a large scale. 10,000 fans walking down Bolton Road would have been a statement but ended up being about 300, with major apathy and another 300 milling around the ground in the “fanzone”. It would have made a difference. Instead it handed Kean the opportunity to call us “the 1%” and say that 99% of fans were behind him and could “see what he was trying to do”. The irony being that they absolutely couldn’t - and didn’t want to.

It was too little too late, but when Ewood finally turned (in a big way) at the end of the Wigan game when we were relegated, that was the moment there should have been a change. It didn’t happen. That was when it was confirmed that Venkys valued Kean more than the fans.

Naive my arse. It was pure arrogance and petulance from the children of a rich entrepreneur (sounds familiar) - ‘who do these ungrateful people think they are to question us?’

The offspring off rich people should never be asked to maintain their parent’s passion unless they absolutely share that passion - especially where football clubs and their communities are at stake.

[arbitro]

Just now, Stuart said:

I agree that it’s pretty unhelpful to keep picking at this scab. I can’t believe it’s been 10 years of this lot being here though. There’s hardly a decade of highlights to look back on.

That said, I do get quite upset at the idea that the efforts of Glen et al, and the few hundred protesters, are somehow responsible for a fractured fanbase.

Not enough people would stand against Kean, let alone put pressure on Venkys, and the vast majority did nothing.

Should this minority have simply stood with the majority and supported Kean and what he was doing? Would that have helped? Would that have avoided the fanbase being fractured? And would the fanbase not being fractured have kept us up? Because it was ultimately relegation that halved the fanbase (plastics who were only here to watch PL football on the cheap jumping ship), and it was Venkys sticking by their nice man thereafter that made the silent protesters walk away, most of them never to return. (The fact they didn’t help with protests is the most unforgivable part).

Once the destruction began, a fractured fanbase was inevitable. I really really wish there had been a sizeable majority who would have fought for the club. We could have made a huge statement walking from the town hall to Ewood. It really was very very little to ask of fans to show their displeasure on a large scale. 10,000 fans walking down Bolton Road would have been a statement but ended up being about 300, with major apathy and another 300 milling around the ground in the “fanzone”. It would have made a difference. Instead it handed Kean the opportunity to call us “the 1%” and say that 99% of fans were behind him and could “see what he was trying to do”. The irony being that they absolutely couldn’t - and didn’t want to.

It was too little too late, but when Ewood finally turned (in a big way) at the end of the Wigan game when we were relegated, that was the moment there should have been a change. It didn’t happen. That was when it was confirmed that Venkys valued Kean more than the fans.

Naive my arse. It was pure arrogance and petulance from the children of a rich entrepreneur (sounds familiar) - ‘who do these ungrateful people think they are to question us?’

The offspring off rich people should never be asked to maintain their parent’s passion unless they absolutely share that passion - especially where football clubs and their communities are at stake.

Very well put Stuart.

The 1% comment was probably the only truth that came out of his horrible mouth. I often wonder how different it might have been had more fans been on board. I still recoil at the beratings given out to protesters before the Arsenal game as we walked around the ground and assembled by the Jack Walker statue.

[Rogerb]

46 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Very well put Stuart.

. I still recoil at the beratings given out to protesters before the Arsenal game as we walked around the ground and assembled by the Jack Walker statue.

It's highly likely that a large number of those doing the berating now have no interest in the club

[A Northern Horde...]

Stuart,let me make this clear it was Venkys and the 'chancers' who were responsible for a fractured supporter base NOT the protesters.

Those who stood up and had the balls to protest are indeed the reason this Club is still here.

[Mattyblue]

1 hour ago, arbitro said:

Very well put Stuart.

The 1% comment was probably the only truth that came out of his horrible mouth. I often wonder how different it might have been had more fans been on board. I still recoil at the beratings given out to protesters before the Arsenal game as we walked around the ground and assembled by the Jack Walker statue.

Indeed. I’ll never forget the abuse I got walking to my seat that day.

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, arbitro said:

Very well put Stuart.

The 1% comment was probably the only truth that came out of his horrible mouth. I often wonder how different it might have been had more fans been on board. I still recoil at the beratings given out to protesters before the Arsenal game as we walked around the ground and assembled by the Jack Walker statue.

Had w got humped that day most of the crowd would have been howling at the final whistle. I wonder how many of those were berating him and venkys by the Wigan game ?

 

[Vinjay]

2 hours ago, Stuart said:

 

Naive my arse. It was pure arrogance and petulance from the children of a rich entrepreneur (sounds familiar) - ‘who do these ungrateful people think they are to question us?’

The offspring off rich people should never be asked to maintain their parent’s passion unless they absolutely share that passion - especially where football clubs and their communities are at stake.

...and if they aren't not interfere with trustees intended for that purpose. 

[Vinjay]

38 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Indeed. I’ll never forget the abuse I got walking to my seat that day.

I'm sure some who protested don't go anymore because they can't forgive those idiots. Can't blame them as I'm one (though I suppose with me there's a lot of other grudges as well)

Probably same people who break every lockdown guideline.

Edited November 15, 2020 by Vinjay

[broadsword]

Ten years... And not a day has gone by where I've stopped hating them. 

 

They've ruined this club. They've allowed it to be hollowed out  by charlatans and chancers. They've brought dishonour upon this club, and I will simply never forgive them. 

 

Quite why they're still owners, I dread to think. 

Edited November 15, 2020 by broadsword

[Crimpshrine]

I can't face listening to the podcast as it will only dredge up ten years of resentment. From what I've read on here, it doesn't add too much to what we already know.

I'm more worried about the future, not the past. I refuse to recognise their continued financial input as any proof that they actually give a damn about the club. They have no interest at all in the club, the community, the history or the fans which, to me, are really more important than results on the pitch.

Supportung Rovers has been a massive part of my life but for the last 10 years the relationship has been conflicted. It feels like the club is being occupied by an 'enemy' and the fans are being suppressed but, in the main, submissive. However, we will always want the club to succeed.

Surely, one day they will decide to leave but what state will the club be in by then? Given that they will never get their outlay back, why do they continue? May as well cut their losses and go sooner rather than later. Given their total lack of communication, can anyone have a guess at their next move?

What does the future hold? I can't imagine just treading water under Venkys for another decade. Will they just continue ignoring the situation until everyone is just too fatigued to care any more.?

We want our Rovers back.

 

[Stuart]

2 hours ago, broadsword said:

Ten years... And not a day has gone by where I've stopped hating them. 

 

They've ruined this club. They've allowed it to be hollowed out  by charlatans and chancers. They've brought dishonour upon this club, and I will simply never forgive them. 

Quite why they're still owners, I dread to think. 

Nice to hear from you Bryan.

It would certainly be interesting to list their achievements over the last decade.

Second in L1, even if that meant promotion, doesn’t quite feel like an achievement considering they bought a PL club. Depending on how long they stick with the current set up it might be looked back on as the ‘dead cat bounce’!

Let’s hope not!

[1864roverite]

Nice to read Glens comments once again he is a miss to all things Rovers.

There has been a lot of water under the bridge. I am a Rover through and through, I along with others had a short time away due to my despising of venkys and all that they represented. I can never forget how they oversaw so much damage to my club.

There have been may conspiracy theories, many people to slag off and far too many that will forever be hated in football circles by Rovers fans, non more so than keanscum and Coyle.

I am not absolving venkys from their part in the demise of our club however I do understand that without them we wouldn’t be here and Rovers would have capitulated to where we don’t know.

One day I hope the truth can be said and it all comes out just to see exactly what happened and to see if any of our theories can be corroborated just so that we can finally apportion blame or wrong doing to be evidenced.

In the meantime, no one is bigger than our club. The colours stand strong and we are slowly but surely recovering and getting a standing once again competitive wise.

Who knows, this season could be the one to help rid us of the nightmare we have all suffered.

BRFC beats strong

[arbitro]

2 minutes ago, 1864roverite said:

Nice to read Glens comments once again he is a miss to all things Rovers.

There has been a lot of water under the bridge. I am a Rover through and through, I along with others had a short time away due to my despising of venkys and all that they represented. I can never forget how they oversaw so much damage to my club.

There have been may conspiracy theories, many people to slag off and far too many that will forever be hated in football circles by Rovers fans, non more so than keanscum and Coyle.

I am not absolving venkys from their part in the demise of our club however I do understand that without them we wouldn’t be here and Rovers would have capitulated to where we don’t know.

One day I hope the truth can be said and it all comes out just to see exactly what happened and to see if any of our theories can be corroborated just so that we can finally apportion blame or wrong doing to be evidenced.

In the meantime, no one is bigger than our club. The colours stand strong and we are slowly but surely recovering and getting a standing once again competitive wise.

Who knows, this season could be the one to help rid us of the nightmare we have all suffered.

BRFC beats strong

I can't agree with your statement. When they arrived we were a mid table PL club with one of the best management structures in the country. We had a debt of £20m and the guarantee of £80m tv income. Our crowds were averaging around 22000 and we had a healthy home support. They have killed most of that, their name is above the door and they are responsible.

We'll never know for sure but I can confidently say that in my view without them we wouldn't have been relegated twice, owe £180m or so to somebody, have had a plethora of spivs and chancers turn us into a laughing stock and are averaging around 11000 fans for home games.

So for as for us not being here I and many others believe we would still be in the PL under the structure they chose to dismantle.

 

[Rogerb]

15 minutes ago, arbitro said:

 

So for as for us not being here I and many others believe we would still be in the PL under the structure they chose to dismantle.

 

Think we were always one poor managerial appointment away from trouble eg Kidd, Ince. However if signicantly more competent owners had been forthcoming without all the shenanigans we could well have enjoyed further seasons in the upper reaches as under Hughes punching above our weight. The fact we were nearly relegated in their first season and then we're the season later says it all. Thankfully Jack kept Rovers separate from his business empire otherwise it's not beyond the realms of possibilities we could have been in Wigans recent position where the buyer didn't want the club at all! So last ten years could have been so much better there is however still a club of some form at present the concern is where we will be if there is another ten years of their involvement

[1864roverite]

58 minutes ago, arbitro said:

I can't agree with your statement. When they arrived we were a mid table PL club with one of the best management structures in the country. We had a debt of £20m and the guarantee of £80m tv income. Our crowds were averaging around 22000 and we had a healthy home support. They have killed most of that, their name is above the door and they are responsible.

We'll never know for sure but I can confidently say that in my view without them we wouldn't have been relegated twice, owe £180m or so to somebody, have had a plethora of spivs and chancers turn us into a laughing stock and are averaging around 11000 fans for home games.

So for as for us not being here I and many others believe we would still be in the PL under the structure they chose to dismantle.

 

And that is your opinion which I respect entirely.

Where would our funding have come from if venkys had left?

Who would have been prospective purchasers of the club? We have all read the non substance stories about so and so but in reality has anyone really been interested in taking in BRFC? The stock answer is no apart from the two local Ian’s and as good as their intentions were I do not see how they would have sustained funding akin to what venkys have done.

Results on the field govern relegation and promotion - could we have tempted a better manager to take the helm? We have read the stories and claims made by Warnock yet I still question his ability to have taken Rovers up.  If we go through the list of what we have had~
 

Kean - royally screwed BRfC.

Berg - wrong place wrong time did not do well.

Appleton - useless

Lambert - too full of himself and again not good enough

Bowyer - simply put just a nice fella who tried and did his best which was not good enough. 
 

Mowbray - love him or hate him he has worked miracles and has been adequately backed by the owners. A ship steadier but has he got the credentials to take us one step further? His record suggests yes however I like others have become amazed at his playing formations. My position on the jury panel is sitting on the fence. I wanted a change but now I am sat waiting to see how this month pans out.

 

I don’t see how anyone can form a view that we would still be PL. The Walker family wanted rid at any price that is evidently clear. We had a pretender come forward before the club was sold. Who takes the blame?

The Walkers? The Trust? The Board for not standing up to be counted? the FA and PL for not doing their jobs properly and of course the so called consortium led by those previously mentioned and the leech that is Keanscum?

Some people do not fully understand the debt is beholden to Venkys, they pump the cash into one of their companies. Yes it’s a loss. Looking into venkys other business is interesting, they are big players and are worth a lot of money, even in today’s climate they are cash rich and own lots of land.

Should Rovers reach the promised land of the Premiership, I think it will signal then end of their reign and they will move on or try to. In the meantime we just have to sit back, support the club and hope and dream. after all we did it back in 1992, 93, 94, 95, 96 and so on.

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by 1864roverite

[Mattyblue]

The Premier League of 2010 was a totally different place to 2014, never mind 2020. The TV deals post our relegation began to grow exponentially and the PL has become THE place for investors in world sport. Burnley now have a bigger income than many of Europe’s most renowned clubs.

Of course, better suitors than the Rao’s could’ve emerged, if only the Walker’s weren’t so desperate to get shut then and there (they’d have made a shed load more money too).

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Mattyblue

[arbitro]

Just now, 1864roverite said:

And that is your opinion which I respect entirely.

Where would our funding have come from if venkys had left?

Who would have been prospective purchasers of the club? We have all read the non substance stories about so and so but in reality has anyone really been interested in taking in BRFC? The stock answer is no apart from the two local Ian’s and as good as their intentions were I do not see how they would have sustained funding akin to what venkys have done.

Results on the field govern relegation and promotion - could we have tempted a better manager to take the helm? We have read the stories and claims made by Warnock yet I still question his ability to have taken Rovers up.  If we go through the list of what we have had~
 

Kean - royally screwed BRfC.

Berg - wrong place wrong time did not do well.

Appleton - useless

Lambert - too full of himself and again not good enough

Bowyer - simply put just a nice fella who tried and did his best which was not good enough. 
 

Mowbray - love him or hate him he has worked miracles and has been adequately backed by the owners. A ship steadier but has he got the credentials to take us one step further? His record suggests yes however I like others have become amazed at his playing formations. My position on the jury panel is sitting on the fence. I wanted a change but now I am sat waiting to see how this month pans out.

 

I don’t see how anyone can form a view that we would still be PL. The Walker family wanted rid at any price that is evidently clear. We had a pretender come forward before the club was sold. Who takes the blame?

The Walkers? The Trust? The Board for not standing up to be counted? the FA and PL for not doing their jobs properly and of course the so called consortium led by those previously mentioned and the leech that is Keanscum?

Some people do not fully understand the debt is beholden to Venkys, they pump the cash into one of their companies. Yes it’s a loss. Looking into venkys other business is interesting, they are big players and are worth a lot of money, even in today’s climate they are cash rich and own lots of land.

Shoukd Rivers reach the promised land of the Premiership, I think it will signal then end of their reign and they will move on or try to. In the meantime we just have to sit back, support the club and hope and dream. after all we did it back in 1992, 93, 94, 95, 96 and so on.

 

My points really were about if Venkys never came in the first place and to your comment saying without them who knows where we would be. Of course it's conjecture on my part to say we would still be in the PL but I believe we would under the structure they inherited. I personally have absolutely nothing to thank or praise them for but everyone sees things differently. It's been a torrid decade whichever way you look at it and probably the most frustrating and annoying thing to me is that is simply didn't need to be. Beholden to them I will never be

I still refer to the best analogy I heard to sum up their tenure. It's like getting knocked over by a driver who is driving recklessly and being grateful to them because they are paying for the electricity on the life support machine to keep you alive.

[A Northern Horde...]

8 minutes ago, arbitro said:

 It's like getting knocked over by a driver who is driving recklessly and being grateful to them because they are paying for the electricity on the life support machine to keep you alive.

Love that..so true.

How long does this continue for,another decade of stagnation?.

I just can't wait.

Edited November 16, 2020 by A Northern Horde...

[arbitro]

Just now, A Northern Horde... said:

Love that..so true.

How long does this continue for,another decade of stagnation?.

I just can't wait.

There are some that say we shouldn't look back too much but even more depressing is the thought of another decade with this lot. Of course the answer would be promotion to the PL and the riches that would bring but I don't really see that happening with the current management structure in place (although that is another debate to be had elsewhere).

[Exiled in Toronto]

Out of interest, I just took a look at the 09-10 Premier League table - our last season pre-Venkys. All the teams who finished below us in 10th place, and two teams that finished above us (including Brum, amazingly), were subsequently relegated. Of those teams, four currently reside in League One (one of them propping it up) and one in League Two, so it’s hard to say we have endured a unique trajectory since then.

Long-term Premier League status is only guaranteed to the usual suspects of Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, City, Utd, Liverpool and Everton - the only ever-presents over the last ten years. A great manager (at the time), Hughes, got us in the lower reaches of that group; bad ones (Ince, Kean) had us bottom in no time.

If we hadn’t been sold at that point, with a disinterested Trust and a ticked off Allardyce denied a decent transfer budget, the next managerial appointment would have had to have been a cracker to ward off the seemingly inevitable bad season that happened to everyone else sooner or later.

[MarkBRFC]

1 hour ago, 1864roverite said:

And that is your opinion which I respect entirely.

Where would our funding have come from if venkys had left?

Who would have been prospective purchasers of the club? We have all read the non substance stories about so and so but in reality has anyone really been interested in taking in BRFC? The stock answer is no apart from the two local Ian’s and as good as their intentions were I do not see how they would have sustained funding akin to what venkys have done.

Results on the field govern relegation and promotion - could we have tempted a better manager to take the helm? We have read the stories and claims made by Warnock yet I still question his ability to have taken Rovers up.  If we go through the list of what we have had~
 

Kean - royally screwed BRfC.

Berg - wrong place wrong time did not do well.

Appleton - useless

Lambert - too full of himself and again not good enough

Bowyer - simply put just a nice fella who tried and did his best which was not good enough. 
 

Mowbray - love him or hate him he has worked miracles and has been adequately backed by the owners. A ship steadier but has he got the credentials to take us one step further? His record suggests yes however I like others have become amazed at his playing formations. My position on the jury panel is sitting on the fence. I wanted a change but now I am sat waiting to see how this month pans out.

 

I don’t see how anyone can form a view that we would still be PL. The Walker family wanted rid at any price that is evidently clear. We had a pretender come forward before the club was sold. Who takes the blame?

The Walkers? The Trust? The Board for not standing up to be counted? the FA and PL for not doing their jobs properly and of course the so called consortium led by those previously mentioned and the leech that is Keanscum?

Some people do not fully understand the debt is beholden to Venkys, they pump the cash into one of their companies. Yes it’s a loss. Looking into venkys other business is interesting, they are big players and are worth a lot of money, even in today’s climate they are cash rich and own lots of land.

Should Rovers reach the promised land of the Premiership, I think it will signal then end of their reign and they will move on or try to. In the meantime we just have to sit back, support the club and hope and dream. after all we did it back in 1992, 93, 94, 95, 96 and so on.

 

I'd personally say that Bowyer worked more miracles than Mowbray has, what has Mowbray achieved that Bowyer didn't? And please don't say a league one promotion.

Bowyer's full seasons in charge produced final positions of 8th & 9th, compared to Mowbrays 15th & 11th, and with far less money at his disposal too.

You can argue that Mowbray inherited a huge mess from Coyle, but I'd argue that the mess Bowyer inherited from the 12-13 season where we had 5 managerial changes was far worse. He still had the likes of Murphy, Etuhu, Goodwillie, Rosado, Edinho, Henrique, Orr, DJ Campbell, Best & more on the books when he took over.

I think both of these fall into the category you put Bowyer in to be honest, both nice blokes who have done there best, but neither are nowhere near good enough if we want to be in those top 6 positions for the majority of the season.