Blackburn Rovers - The incredible story of the Venky's turbulent ownership

[arbitro]

2 minutes ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

Out of interest, I just took a look at the 09-10 Premier League table - our last season pre-Venkys. All the teams who finished below us in 10th place, and two teams that finished above us (including Brum, amazingly), were subsequently relegated. Of those teams, four currently reside in League One (one of them propping it up) and one in League Two, so it’s hard to say we have endured a unique trajectory since then.

Long-term Premier League status is only guaranteed to the usual suspects of Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs, City, Utd, Liverpool and Everton - the only ever-presents over the last ten years. A great manager (at the time), Hughes, got us in the lower reaches of that group; bad ones (Ince, Kean) had us bottom in no time.

If we hadn’t been sold at that point, with a disinterested Trust and a ticked off Allardyce denied a decent transfer budget, the next managerial appointment would have had to have been a cracker to ward off the seemingly inevitable bad season that happened to everyone else sooner or later.

It's conjecture John to say we would or wouldn't but based on the previous decade we did stay in the PL, not always without a scare along the way. That was largely due in my view to having a sound management team and an acceptance that we would have to sell our best players from time to time. In football it's imperative that the club is managed correctly and we were. Venkys killed that within a few months.

[Exiled in Toronto]

32 minutes ago, arbitro said:

It's conjecture John to say we would or wouldn't but based on the previous decade we did stay in the PL, not always without a scare along the way. That was largely due in my view to having a sound management team and an acceptance that we would have to sell our best players from time to time. In football it's imperative that the club is managed correctly and we were. Venkys killed that within a few months.

No question, Tony.

Having said that, when the sale process was underway, I felt the old model was fraying at the edges. Allardyce’s forte was more getting more tunes out of old violins than signing players for buttons who could be later sold to fund the running costs - I think Nzonzi was his only signing we sold for a significant profit. Kalinic had been a bust during his time with us and the likes of Benjani and Goulon would neither play a good tune nor have any resale value. Other than Jones, there was not the youth conveyor belt we have now. The more I think of it, the more I believe that Allardyce prolonged our stay but we had no money or youth prospects to replace the likes of Salgado, Dunn, Givet, Emerton, MGP etc, all of who had seen better days. But another Hughes could have been a very different story.

[arbitro]

35 minutes ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

No question, Tony.

Having said that, when the sale process was underway, I felt the old model was fraying at the edges. Allardyce’s forte was more getting more tunes out of old violins than signing players for buttons who could be later sold to fund the running costs - I think Nzonzi was his only signing we sold for a significant profit. Kalinic had been a bust during his time with us and the likes of Benjani and Goulon would neither play a good tune nor have any resale value. Other than Jones, there was not the youth conveyor belt we have now. The more I think of it, the more I believe that Allardyce prolonged our stay but we had no money or youth prospects to replace the likes of Salgado, Dunn, Givet, Emerton, MGP etc, all of who had seen better days. But another Hughes could have been a very different story.

As you say John Sam could squeeze a bit extra out of players who many considered past their sell by date which was effective but understandably risky. I don't think the 'model' of buying cheap and selling at a huge profit was planned but occurred organically and was accepted by the majority of fans. Sadly Hughes used the old 'as far as I can' cliche as upped sticks. I don't blame him neither as he probably deserved a crack at a big club. 

If we are to get out of this mess I firmly believe the best way is to buy/produce young players to sell on like Southampton have done but I appreciate it will be difficult in the vipers nest that is football.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

On 15/11/2020 at 15:09, A Northern Horde... said:

Stuart,let me make this clear it was Venkys and the 'chancers' who were responsible for a fractured supporter base NOT the protesters.

Those who stood up and had the balls to protest are indeed the reason this Club is still here.

I think people need to consider that not everyone had access to the information that many of the protestors did, I think some protestors didn't appreciate that.

Genuine question (ie not wind up) - but why is the club still here because of protests ? Personally IMO the reason we are still here is because the Venkys continue to pump in money, if they had listened to the protests it is more likely they would have thrown away their expensive toy. That isn't having a go at the protests, but with no real allegiance to the club - why bother with the hassle ?

Edited November 16, 2020 by DavidMailsTightPerm

[JHRover]

I accept that it doesn't achieve anything to dredge up the memories of 2010 onwards but it is difficult not to and I don't think we should ever forget it. At best it was criminal mismanagement and negligence that could and may yet still be the end of Blackburn Rovers. Whilst it didn't result in a Portsmouth style bankruptcy and owners skipping off into the sunset leaving us in strife the fact remains that we are up to our eyeballs in massive losses and dependency on these owners, the very people responsible for this mess.

I don't think these owners feel guilty or responsible for the mess they created, or are serious about making amends. I think they are stubborn and see an exit as weakness or admission of failure - two things that are intolerable to people of their position and the costs of keeping the club on a drip each year in the faint hope something changes for the better is preferable to writing off their losses and disappearing with tails between legs.

It feels like yesterday when this sorry saga began to unfold. I remember hearing of Allardyce's sacking so clearly and remember thinking that it was a bold and potentially reckless move but respected that new owners often want their own man in and I maintain to this day that in isolation the sacking of Allardyce didn't have to be a catastrophe. For a club in our position Allardyce was the ideal man for us and we'd have always survived under him. He didn't deserve the sack. But at the same time new owners and investors have the right to appoint their own team and had a competent replacement been lined up there's no reason why the club couldn't have progressed under different management. It wasn't Allardyce or bust, but Allardyce was ideal and his replacement would have needed to be a big name and expensive to better him.

I still hope one day that we find out the real truth of how it came about. I just want the answers as it will help in my mind as to culpability. For example, was the Kean manager appointment wrapped up and agreed with the Indians prior to takeover, or was it something that Kean wormed his way into quickly after he and his mate realised how clueless they were and Kean set about smooth talking Mrs Desai?

Anderson - another strange one - why would he put his professional reputation in danger by wrecking Rovers? He had everything set up to his advantage - contract to run the club, ability to spend the owners funds - why set the club on a trajectory to ruin by installing his mate as manager and keeping him in place? Longer term surely his interests were better served by making recruitment and management of the club as strong as possible, enhancing his reputation, rather than the stigma and problems he had at Rovers.

I never cease to be amazed by those who stick resolutely to this belief that it is Venkys or bust. Of course if they turned their investment off overnight the club would be in a mess. Welcome to the real world. Every club is in the same boat. Since we entered the Championship in 2012 there have been takeovers at Leeds x2, Huddersfield, Barnsley, Sheff Wed, Derby, Forest x 2, Leicester, West Brom, Wolves, Birmingham, Villa, Wigan, Bolton, Watford, Reading.

Was the Walker Trust model sustainable? Possibly not. There's only so far you can get with disinterested owners as we are seeing here today. Under Allardyce and even the later days of Hughes we were in a zombie like state of just ensuring enough was done to avoid relegation. Now we are in a similar rudderless era just a division below with horrific annual losses to go with it. We're probably doing quite well in some respects as we are now at about 15 years in a row of having either unwilling owners looking to get shut and stop spending or clueless perhaps dodgy owners with absolutely no interest or understanding of what they are dealing with.

I doubt there are many other clubs at this sort of level that can 'boast' such a prolonged spell of disinterest, reluctance or cluelessness and have anything to show for it. Maybe one day we will have someone in control who has passion for the club and genuinely wants it to grow, prosper, improve - see Andy Holt at Accy - rather than just plod along all the while the club decays and fanbase dwindles. There's no room in football for corner cutters or reluctant owners - only those who want to be here and want to be successful will get anywhere. Venkys might think that signing off the cheques every month and meeting Tony at their place a couple of times a year represents interest.

I do recognise that Venkys financial input at present does put us into a position where we can recruit and retain at a level the club couldn't on its own steam or with corner shop owners like other local clubs have. But the most frustrating part is that for their level of investment we should be the envy of clubs at this level with a quality squad, top management team, lovely stadium, yet so much is missing through neglect and corner cutting that their investment doesn't get them where they and we need to be.

 

[Leonard Venkhater]

50 minutes ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

No question, Tony.

Having said that, when the sale process was underway, I felt the old model was fraying at the edges. Allardyce’s forte was more getting more tunes out of old violins than signing players for buttons who could be later sold to fund the running costs - I think Nzonzi was his only signing we sold for a significant profit. Kalinic had been a bust during his time with us and the likes of Benjani and Goulon would neither play a good tune nor have any resale value. Other than Jones, there was not the youth conveyor belt we have now. The more I think of it, the more I believe that Allardyce prolonged our stay but we had no money or youth prospects to replace the likes of Salgado, Dunn, Givet, Emerton, MGP etc, all of who had seen better days. But another Hughes could have been a very different story.

Interesting.

In the first weekend of the takeover, we were naturally anxious in our house.

I actually consoled my kids that under the Walker Trusts's disinvestment policy, it was only a matter of time before we went down. The departures of Hughes, Friedel, Bentley and the appointment of Ince had been indicators. Sam had done a good job of keeping us up in the face of deteriorating quality on the field. That was before I knew about the huge TV deal that was around the corner. A takeover was vital.

That said, the hateful, destructive raft of decisions made by the Roas and their allies seemed almost designed to deliver relegation and far sooner than the neglectful Walker Trust would have managed.

[tomphil]

Got to look at it like this they bought a club that had Phil Jones and Chris Samba on the books who combined were sold for around 30+ million. So taking that into account then run as it was it was sustainable for another season or two although obviously relying on Sams magic.

After that who knows but Rovers in modern times have always needed an experienced big name manager a club like ours needs that profile if nothing else. So it's as fair to assume Williams and co would have come up with the necessary based on past evidence as it is to just assume we'd have dropped anyway.

Longer term it needed a radical overhaul and change in tack which might have meant a big step back to regroup and go again more streamlined. They brought in billionaire owners to do the opposite of that though and what it didn't mean was a decade in the wilderness again with no sight of it ever ending.

Also judging us by those other clubs is a bit of a false picture anyway. There'll be a few who we batted above for a long time under the trust who are now swimming with the big fish in the Prem and have done for a while.

Works both ways.

[Vinjay]

Notice this hasn't had any mentions on here. Only saw it myself on another Rovers related forum. Apparently part 2 has comments covering more recent years like "pretty poor advice from some pretty poor individuals". I don't know if they are named guess that's Coar covering himself legally (after all he knows what threatening to sue people is like).

Then again he gets confronted while some sign NDA's (not for free) and others screw over relatives who left them millions and get invited to his HOF induction.

ROBERT COAR: 40 YEARS AT BLACKBURN ROVERS

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p08xwfqh

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p08xx3q5

By the way does anyone know the record tenure for a football club director? I'm sure there's a few who have lengthier tenures and some might not count "non exec" as Coar's been for 15 years anyway.

 

Edited November 16, 2020 by Vinjay

[Atko's Engine]

5 hours ago, 1864roverite said:

 

Results on the field govern relegation and promotion - could we have tempted a better manager to take the helm? We have read the stories and claims made by Warnock yet I still question his ability to have taken Rovers up.  If we go through the list of what we have had~
 

Kean - royally screwed BRfC.

Berg - wrong place wrong time did not do well.

Appleton - useless

Lambert - too full of himself and again not good enough

Bowyer - simply put just a nice fella who tried and did his best which was not good enough. 
 

Mowbray - love him or hate him he has worked miracles and has been adequately backed by the owners. A ship steadier but has he got the credentials to take us one step further? His record suggests yes however I like others have become amazed at his playing formations. My position on the jury panel is sitting on the fence. I wanted a change but now I am sat waiting to see how this month pans out.

 

You forgot about Coyle.

I wish I could.

[1864roverite]

49 minutes ago, Atko's Engine said:

You forgot about Coyle.

I wish I could.

I must have deleted it by mistake but for completing that set it was simply put as Coyle = C@nt

[Mattyblue]

‘Get Real’ 2020 edition...

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/18876240.david-dunn-venkys-commitment-cant-questioned/

[arbitro]

16 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

‘Get Real’ 2020 edition...

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/18876240.david-dunn-venkys-commitment-cant-questioned/

He should just be concentrating on Barrow.

In my view he still sees himself as a future Rovers manager. Keeping sweet with the owners gives him a chance given their liking of people sucking up to them.

[Mattyblue]

Just now, arbitro said:

He should just be concentrating on Barrow.

In my view he still sees himself as a future Rovers manager. Keeping sweet with the owners gives him a chance given their liking of people sucking up to them.

‘Blackburn’.

Edited November 17, 2020 by Mattyblue

[The balconator]

22 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

‘Get Real’ 2020 edition...

https://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/sport/18876240.david-dunn-venkys-commitment-cant-questioned/

Maybe I’m in a minority but can’t stand the guy . Wasted his potential . 

[A Northern Horde...]

Your entitled to your opinion David Dunn.

But please don't preach to long standing supporters of this Club who have been genuinely dismayed and hurt at the collapse of this great old institution under THEIR tenure.The last ten years have been horrible and embarrassing,the animosity runs deep.

Concentrate on Barrow and gorging into that bucket of Venky Express fella..Mmmmm

Edited November 17, 2020 by A Northern Horde...

[K-Hod]

Club owners that have done the absolute minimum expected of them, after completely ruining things for years after listening to the wrong people time and again, then being too stubborn to change their ways or admit they were ever wrong.

Yep, sounds like that’s who we should be grateful to....

[tomphil]

Orrs best mate made an ass of himself a few times under the Venky era keeping his own feet under the table.

[Vinjay]

3 hours ago, arbitro said:

He should just be concentrating on Barrow.

In my view he still sees himself as a future Rovers manager. Keeping sweet with the owners gives him a chance given their liking of people sucking up to them.

He's a deluded egotist. When Barrow sack him he will probably still think of himself as a future Rovers manager. It's not like you have to be a member of Mensa but even people who like Dunn know he's lacking upstairs.

Attacks Gary Bowyer on Twitter (the reasons being me, me, me) but has no issue with Kean.

I left his name out on Evans thread other day after mentioning others not being criticised for milking injuries (though some certainly knew who I meant) to try and avoid argument. Well sod that.

Just look at the first comment on LT article. All he's done is give these idiots defending Venkys more ammunition so they can say "oh Dunn defended them". Well so what? Maybe they should think of an actual legend like Jack Walker and care about what he would have thought. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Vinjay

[JHRover]

What I can't really stand is 'celebrities' or ex-players/staff members telling the general support base what we should and shouldn't think about Venkys.

For example Dunn - the reality, however you want to spin it, is that he was on the club payroll for a large part of the Venky era, first as a senior player, then as a coach and u23 assistant, and there's no doubt at all that his status will ensure he is at the front of the queue in future if he needs a job here. So he might be a 'legend' or respected former player, but the reality remains that he has had a living out of Rovers for much of the last decade of destruction, and i'd even suggest that has in part been enabled by the destruction wreaked - if we had remained a top flight club or properly run I doubt he would have been able to carry on playing as long as he did and further doubt he'd have ended up as first team coach.

I've got no personal gripe with him but his position as a paid up staff member is infinitely different to that of working fans who have had to cough up their dosh for the last decade to support it all and watch the misery unfold.

Perhaps before rolling out the red carpet and speaking on behalf of thousands of fans who have been put through it he should think about that.

[tomphil]

David Dunn thinks about David Dunn nothing else he was  a good player for us in the rare spells he was ever fit. He flounced off to Brum thinking he was the dogs whatsits because Souness was always on his case for being a piss artist.  Flopped there and was very lucky and no doubt greatfull to end up back here.

The 'Blackburn' lad tag has carried him a long way and iv'e no doubt he loves the club. He doesn't however speak for thousands of fans and never has.  And no way does he have what it takes to be manager here ever, that would be another huge step backwards.

Sorry Dunny, stay in your lane.

[ben_the_beast]

I don't think Dunny has told anyone how they should feel. He said a lot of fans will disagree with him. So I don't think he is preaching. 

4 hours ago, K-Hod said:

Club owners that have done the absolute minimum expected of them

I would argue looking at other clubs that Venkys have done more than the bare minimum. They were roundly hated and that showed when they last visited, what 7 years ago. It would have been easy for them to completely pull out of the club but they have put their money where their mouth is. For me that is the most important thing as that is the only thing that keeps the club afloat and functioning. I believe the levels of investment they have put in to be far above the minimum. (And yes I understand it was self inflicted and I'm not saying their reception was unwarranted) Also, non of this is aimed at you K-Hod, just a quote of many i have picked out.

Would an apology from Venkys regarding some of their mismanagement be enough to get some fans back onside. For me that would be meaningful. I don't know if it would be enough for other fans to begin to move on.... As I feel as though I am very much in the minority in my attitude towards Venkys. 

[Mattyblue]

The disdain brfcs members largely feel towards the owners was a widespread view at one time, but I would say we are well in a minority now.

[Leonard Venkhater]

Well, I love David Dunn, but I do wish he wouldn't stray into this area. No-one can reconcile me into accepting the unacceptable!

[tomphil]

Really the proof is in the pudding from now on.

Excuses get made for the early years fair enough. Then we got stability when the roulette wheel fell on Bowyer. His good work got pulled to bits, team sold then eventually enter Owen Couple and relegation. No excuses for all that.

A repeat of that or hanging on to a regime that keeps us firmly anchored in midtable is what needs to be avoided in the next few years.

Then the judgement will become a bit clearer.

[Leonard Venkhater]

23 hours ago, JHRover said:

I accept that it doesn't achieve anything to dredge up the memories of 2010 onwards but it is difficult not to and I don't think we should ever forget it. At best it was criminal mismanagement and negligence that could and may yet still be the end of Blackburn Rovers. Whilst it didn't result in a Portsmouth style bankruptcy and owners skipping off into the sunset leaving us in strife the fact remains that we are up to our eyeballs in massive losses and dependency on these owners, the very people responsible for this mess.

I don't think these owners feel guilty or responsible for the mess they created, or are serious about making amends. I think they are stubborn and see an exit as weakness or admission of failure - two things that are intolerable to people of their position and the costs of keeping the club on a drip each year in the faint hope something changes for the better is preferable to writing off their losses and disappearing with tails between legs.

It feels like yesterday when this sorry saga began to unfold. I remember hearing of Allardyce's sacking so clearly and remember thinking that it was a bold and potentially reckless move but respected that new owners often want their own man in and I maintain to this day that in isolation the sacking of Allardyce didn't have to be a catastrophe. For a club in our position Allardyce was the ideal man for us and we'd have always survived under him. He didn't deserve the sack. But at the same time new owners and investors have the right to appoint their own team and had a competent replacement been lined up there's no reason why the club couldn't have progressed under different management. It wasn't Allardyce or bust, but Allardyce was ideal and his replacement would have needed to be a big name and expensive to better him.

I still hope one day that we find out the real truth of how it came about. I just want the answers as it will help in my mind as to culpability. For example, was the Kean manager appointment wrapped up and agreed with the Indians prior to takeover, or was it something that Kean wormed his way into quickly after he and his mate realised how clueless they were and Kean set about smooth talking Mrs Desai?

Anderson - another strange one - why would he put his professional reputation in danger by wrecking Rovers? He had everything set up to his advantage - contract to run the club, ability to spend the owners funds - why set the club on a trajectory to ruin by installing his mate as manager and keeping him in place? Longer term surely his interests were better served by making recruitment and management of the club as strong as possible, enhancing his reputation, rather than the stigma and problems he had at Rovers.

I never cease to be amazed by those who stick resolutely to this belief that it is Venkys or bust. Of course if they turned their investment off overnight the club would be in a mess. Welcome to the real world. Every club is in the same boat. Since we entered the Championship in 2012 there have been takeovers at Leeds x2, Huddersfield, Barnsley, Sheff Wed, Derby, Forest x 2, Leicester, West Brom, Wolves, Birmingham, Villa, Wigan, Bolton, Watford, Reading.

Was the Walker Trust model sustainable? Possibly not. There's only so far you can get with disinterested owners as we are seeing here today. Under Allardyce and even the later days of Hughes we were in a zombie like state of just ensuring enough was done to avoid relegation. Now we are in a similar rudderless era just a division below with horrific annual losses to go with it. We're probably doing quite well in some respects as we are now at about 15 years in a row of having either unwilling owners looking to get shut and stop spending or clueless perhaps dodgy owners with absolutely no interest or understanding of what they are dealing with.

I doubt there are many other clubs at this sort of level that can 'boast' such a prolonged spell of disinterest, reluctance or cluelessness and have anything to show for it. Maybe one day we will have someone in control who has passion for the club and genuinely wants it to grow, prosper, improve - see Andy Holt at Accy - rather than just plod along all the while the club decays and fanbase dwindles. There's no room in football for corner cutters or reluctant owners - only those who want to be here and want to be successful will get anywhere. Venkys might think that signing off the cheques every month and meeting Tony at their place a couple of times a year represents interest.

I do recognise that Venkys financial input at present does put us into a position where we can recruit and retain at a level the club couldn't on its own steam or with corner shop owners like other local clubs have. But the most frustrating part is that for their level of investment we should be the envy of clubs at this level with a quality squad, top management team, lovely stadium, yet so much is missing through neglect and corner cutting that their investment doesn't get them where they and we need to be.

 

So why does this keep coming up? Because the "scab" has formed over a dirty wound.

This was a very deep wound and the healing process has been hindered by dishonesty and successful attempts to silence full and open discussion. A look across messageboards and facebook will show anyone that it remains poisonous.

There is still too much secrecy, half-truth/partial disclosure. Personally, I felt a bit sick when Nelsen and Samba trumpeted their partial revelations a "convenient" ten years after the events. And I wasn't impressed by Nick Harris' minimalist podcast either. Too much about Harris and too little about the machinations, which he claims he knows about. 

Members of the same "football" family were at each others' throats because some had a little knowledge and were closed down. Others had no knowledge, merely loyalty to their club.

If you did not read BRFCS in 2011, where would you get the information?-The LT, Radio Lancs?...Don't make me laugh.....

Edited November 17, 2020 by Leonard Venkhater