Rovers v Millwall. Wed 2nd Dec 7.45pm

[K-Hod]

I think what has pleased me the most about last night and the Barnsley game at the weekend, is us being up against it, not playing that well, but still emerging with six points.

Last season, I’m not sure that would have been the case! More of the same for the rest of the season please lads!

[Mattyblue]

15 minutes ago, Dreams of 1995 said:

One of them called us "virus ridden, tier 3 wankers" ???

Bloody hell, I did not expect to hear that insult at the football.

Ironic really, given Milwall's real position in the leagues is about Tier 3. They are punching above their weight 

Ironic as a load of their fanbase live in (Tier 3) Kent these days...

[tonygreenbank]

9 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Not that I need to justify it but if I didnt enjoy wins no matter how they come about, ill stop following, and I certainly wouldnt have bought a season pass.

It wasnt a good performance, I think most concede that including the manager post match, didnt make me any less elated when Armstrongs shot went in and when the full time whistle went after I had watched from behind my hands for 5 minutes with an elevated heart rate.

Positives that I also touched on, Elliotts goal was superb and he was decent, Gallagher who I have criticised before I though was very useful, Lenihan who although deserved criticism at the start of the season I feel has not got the praise he deserved in recent weeks and was outstanding, Nyambe who we have to sign long term and Armstrong was a threat. So 5 positives and apparently 14 negatives all merely in the interest of discussion but all overshadowed by the result which seemingly doesnt mean as much as I think it does.

Good response. 
At the end of the day we all want success for our team. I always look on the positive side of things!  I thought watching on ifollow would be a great idea, which is clearly better than nothing, but it certainly doesn’t help the old heart rate!

But I’ll be watching on Saturday and is it Sky next Tuesday? Onwards and upwards.

[oldjamfan1]

32 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

Ironic as a load of their fanbase live in (Tier 3) Kent these days...

Or as they call it "Caahnt".

At least I think that's what they were referring to.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

1 hour ago, philipl said:

Never ever let a team play at Ewood in halves with white in it again!

Hated that visual clash with a passion and I wonder if some of our unusually wayward passing was because of the clash.

I believe our passing accuracy last night was something like 10% down on what it normally is.

Shocking that the referee allowed it. I did wonder about the passing - as some of the misplaced passes were school boy errors.

[neophox]

5 minutes ago, Yoogo said:

We might have just had two grotty wins, but I'm delighted that we seem to have that in the locker. I think a lot of it is to do with Kaminski and what seems like a more resilient defence. I suspect the two are related.

I've been impressed with Gallagher as of late. Whenever he's been scoring recently, he doesn't celebrate and just looks downbeat, but I suspect that's down to a frustrating time here so far. He's definitely looked the part this season, seems a lot stronger, pacier, more determined, etc.

Lenihan was superb, and even pulled off a couple of Richie saves! Haven't seen the replays, but I think we got away with at least one there.

Buckley made a difference when he came on. What a talent he is. His passing is sublime.

Toughie against Brentford, next. Games coming thick and fast, but with Dack possibly making an appearance before the year is out, and the squad depth doing its part, things are looking good.

Buckley lost the ball on several occasions, think he's too lightweight for the championship.

[Dreams of 1995]

I quite enjoy the feeling of having gained something we didn’t deserve. 6 pts from the last two games against tough opposition really. It was the opposite to Barnsley who came and played some decent football. It was almost as if Milwall didn’t want to win and were more interested in trying to copy Wilders formation. Their centre halves weren’t ball players and looked entirely uncomfortable when asked to play the game and not simply spoil it. 
 

I don’t understand how their centre half got away without a yellow card for that tackle on Brereton. Likewise that little tubby boy in midfield, Woods, he made a rather cynical lunge on Armstrong at the end of the first half that could have done some damage had he not had such little legs. With that in mind I think the ref forgot his specs because how he missed them handballs I’ll never know! 
 

Two real hard taught games and 6 pts to show for it. We’ve come through this relatively unscathed and luckily Gally is showing some promise as Brereton gets injured. Strength in depth and all that. Big test on Saturday against another London team, albeit a far cry from the style of play Milwall brought. This will be a good game of football and one I suspect will be won or lost in midfield. Must start Rothwell and Holtby together because Holtby is the only one in there who can find Rothwells runs from deep. Did you see his lung bursting run only for our player to completely miss him and go back last night? I was screaming at the tele 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Dreams of 1995

[4000Holes]

8 minutes ago, Yoogo said:

We might have just had two grotty wins, but I'm delighted that we seem to have that in the locker. I think a lot of it is to do with Kaminski and what seems like a more resilient defence. I suspect the two are related.

I've been impressed with Gallagher as of late. Whenever he's been scoring recently, he doesn't celebrate and just looks downbeat, but I suspect that's down to a frustrating time here so far. He's definitely looked the part this season, seems a lot stronger, pacier, more determined, etc.

Lenihan was superb, and even pulled off a couple of Richie saves! Haven't seen the replays, but I think we got away with at least one there.

Buckley made a difference when he came on. What a talent he is. His passing is sublime.

Toughie against Brentford, next. Games coming thick and fast, but with Dack possibly making an appearance before the year is out, and the squad depth doing its part, things are looking good.

Agree with you about the Keeper, he acts as a sweeper which allows the defence to defend 4 or 5 metres further forward which makes a hell of a difference.  Last night for the Millwall goal, Ayala was pulled out of position and I don’t think he was match fit but he had to cover for the full back which is a position I am still concerned about on both flanks.  Hope Douglas can stay fit because we will need him certainly over the next few weeks.

[joey_big_nose]

Really really poor performance, I thought it was much worse than the Barnsley game where we struggled first half but did turn it around well. That said we still managed to win which is to be applauded, but really if the handballs had been given we could well have lost. So I wouldn't take much confidence from it at all.

Why was this performance so poor? I would say

• We obviously have a big problem when the opposition play 343. The forwards just can't get in the game at all, the space they find against a back 4 just wasnt't available. Game completely passed Brereton by, and Gallagher only had any luck through battering his way through pretty ineffectively.
• The above was exacerbated by theoretically playing Elliott in midfield as he didn't actually play in midfield at all. He was really on the right almost like a second winger. That left Johnson and Holtby pretty much isolated in the midfield where they were overrun and both had really poor games. We really needed another midfielder in there - ideally Rothwell but Buckley or Davenport would have been okay. Eliott scored a great goal which papered over the cracks somewhat, but that apart it really didn't work.
• When we did bring on midfield substitutes around the 75 minutes Brereton was already off and Gallagher went off. so then we suddenly had a lot of midfielders but no real forwards apart from Armstrong who was bizarrely playing wide. We lost all sense of shape entirely. Got lucky with Armstrong's goal, but it was a real mess.
• I thought Ayala was a big downgrade on Wharton to be honest which is an amazing thing to say considering his pedigree. Will put it down to fitness. Lenihan and Nyambe were great, and I thought Bell did okay to be honest defensively.

What we need to do imo :

• Figure out how to play against 343. Won't be the last time we come up against it. We might need to be radical and change our formation. Maybe we could match the 343? We have the players for it.
• Not play Elliot in midfield. Get a proper workhorse in there like Rothwell or Davenport (or ideally Trav when he's back) to get up and down and be competitive. We've only got 3 midfielders in the formation for Christsake - the three in there need to actually play in midfield.

That said next we are playing Brentford who are 433 so think that will be a really open game and completely different to either of the last two games. Our standard 433 should work fine, but I certainly wouldn't play Elliot in the middle. Move him up wide right, drop Gallagher and play Rothwell on the left of the midfield 3.

[SBlue]

4 minutes ago, joey_big_nose said:

Move him up wide right, drop Gallagher and play Rothwell on the left of the midfield 3.

Good post. Doubt Brereton will play so Gallagher should keep his place.

[RevidgeBlue]

Didn't think we played that badly last night, thought Millwall looked a very decent side. The only thing that puzzled me was what I thought was an appalling triple substitution on 73 mins. 1-1 at home and we bring off two forwards (Gallagher and Elliott) and arguably our most creative midfielder in Holtby and bring on another 3 midfielders. I also thought Gallagher and Elliott were two of our slightly better performers on the night. (I didn't agree with withdrawing Armstrong for the last two or three minutes either as it left us without any form of out whatsoever)

After the triple substitution  I thought we dropped off and I held out no hope of us nicking the vital three points until Armstrong not having done a bean all night popped up unexpectedly which is a sign of a really good goalscorer.

So we got away with it despite Tombola Tony giving everyone a run out to keep them happy. It just goes to show how important the result is, if we'd played brilliantly the last two games and lost everyone would be on the floor, we scrape a couple of streaky victories and everyone is over the moon.

That's what we'll have to continue to do over the course of the season if we want to challenge. Still think we have the squad but not the manager but let's see!

[RevidgeBlue]

18 minutes ago, 4000Holes said:

Agree with you about the Keeper, he acts as a sweeper which allows the defence to defend 4 or 5 metres further forward which makes a hell of a difference.  Last night for the Millwall goal, Ayala was pulled out of position and I don’t think he was match fit but he had to cover for the full back which is a position I am still concerned about on both flanks.  Hope Douglas can stay fit because we will need him certainly over the next few weeks.

Thought we looked far more solid defensively when Wharton was playing myself.

Unfortunately I don't suppose he'll get much of a look in if Ayala and Lenihan are fit.

[arbitro]

Credit to Rowett who changed his tactics and pretty much turned the tables in how many of us were expecting them to play. The didn't give us a minute and squeezed play pretty much nullifying our strengths. It took a while for us to come to terms with this but once we did we got our passing going and played more in their half. Lots of decent performances but not really an outstanding one which, when we have won is a really good thing. I was reflecting later that maybe in the recent passed we wouldn't have won this.

[1864roverite]

Good points Rev however they were starting to overrun us both the flanks and middle so something was needed to shore the defence and midfield, better to have taken a point rather than a defeat and nil points.

In saying that the result is all that matters.

Previous seasons would have seen Rovers buckle big time in fact when last season resumed its what we saw time and time again. This current Rovers squad have a togetherness and a will to win but more importantly they appear to have learned how to defend the ball and you can see this by the amount of players throwing themselves in front of the ball. I believe we must be the highest team when it comes to blocking shots especially in our goal area.

Brentford will pose a totally different kind of opposition on Saturday, they play football, pretty football and will have two big lads up front in Forss and Toney. Mowbray will have his work cut out preparing for this game as the players need a rest whilst getting ready for Saturday.  
 

Can Rovers pass this test? I would think possession football from both teams will be on show. Squad management is the key and despite my own misgivings about TM so far he has got more right than wrong and long may it continue.

Edited December 3, 2020 by 1864roverite

[Dreams of 1995]

21 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Thought we looked far more solid defensively when Wharton was playing myself.

Unfortunately I don't suppose he'll get much of a look in if Ayala and Lenihan are fit.

I think Wharton is a very good defender but Ayala gives you that bit more Championship nous. He dealt with the crosses in very well last night. Would always opt for the experience of Ayala in games like last night, whereas Wharton can grind his teeth at Championship level against the lesser teams.

History tells us that Ayala and Lenihan will have a spell out injured so I think Wharton will get plenty of game time this season

[RevidgeBlue]

On 02/12/2020 at 10:59, RevidgeBlue said:

Won't be the case by the end of the season though, general rule of thumb, you need roughly two points per game to guarantee automatic promotion.

Right now we're seven points behind that mark  so over the course of the season we'd be likely to need  to average two points per game plus five or six "bonus" points!

Well that's one of the "bonus" points in the bag. Another four or five wins in fairly quick fashion and we'll be in good shape and that's the mentality we need to have and the immediate target we should be setting to get in an around the top 2.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Ayala was rusty, as you would expect. That game will stand to him. Great to finally have competition there with PROPER defenders. Was it 2 Christmases ago we played some games with Mulgrew and Rodwell there? Both of whom had given up headering the ball for Christmas. 

[LDRover]

13 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Very poor performance, some very strange tactical decisions and a massive slice of luck with the deflection and the refereeing, they should have had a penalty but im very happy tonight because all that matters is three points.

The experiment that Mowbray tried with his subs was totally bizarre and killed the momentum we were building. Gallagher was playing well. Buckley and Dolan made the wrong decision every single time and the change of system just didnt suit anyone. Hopefully one not to be repeated. The balance wasnt right with the starting 11 either.

Bell was embarassing, if Douglas isnt fit on Saturday then play Downing there. Nyambe was very good and the centre backs were also chalk and cheese with Lenihan really hitting some good form whereas Ayala was shocking.

In the midfield I just wish that Holtby would control games more than he does, gave the ball away a few times and rarely grabs a game by the scruff of the neck. Johnson also poor on the ball, Armstrong also a threat, Mowbray mentioned post match that he has a slight hip injury but we cant do without him.

I think you have to recognise that in the last 2 games both teams have cut off the ball into him through the high press as he's been identified as our playmaker.

Prior to that, he was controlling games. That said, we have to find a way of combatting it so we need another playmaker in there or a way of going front to back and winning second balls up the pitch.

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Didn't think we played that badly last night, thought Millwall looked a very decent side. The only thing that puzzled me was what I thought was an appalling triple substitution on 73 mins. 1-1 at home and we bring off two forwards (Gallagher and Elliott) and arguably our most creative midfielder in Holtby and bring on another 3 midfielders. I also thought Gallagher and Elliott were two of our slightly better performers on the night. (I didn't agree with withdrawing Armstrong for the last two or three minutes either as it left us without any form of out whatsoever)

After the triple substitution  I thought we dropped off and I held out no hope of us nicking the vital three points until Armstrong not having done a bean all night popped up unexpectedly which is a sign of a really good goalscorer.

So we got away with it despite Tombola Tony giving everyone a run out to keep them happy. It just goes to show how important the result is, if we'd played brilliantly the last two games and lost everyone would be on the floor, we scrape a couple of streaky victories and everyone is over the moon.

That's what we'll have to continue to do over the course of the season if we want to challenge. Still think we have the squad but not the manager but let's see!

That's how i saw it as well and i think us having a strong bench and being able to do that helped rather than any tactical masterstroke. Could be argued it gave us a big more leg and a base for the last 20.

A point was the target though then until Armstrong did his number, the plaudits are for him from me like i said his manager owes him. Very similar to a league 1 season performance and win.  All toil and disjointed but the strength tells in the end.

[Ossydave]

When's the last time we played and didn't have to sub someone off through injury?

Luckily we've just about managed to patch things up so far but we're walking a tightrope.

I really hope the Brereton injury isn't A] TOO serious, B] going to impact us too much.  We don't have anyone who's a like for like replacement for him and he's been key this season, he has a very unique style of play that defenders hate to play against.  

 

[BigBar]

Not the performance we wanted and was quite poor at times but a massive 3 points. Add to that the fact Norwich, Bournemouth Swansea all lost and Reading and Watford also dropped points. Have to be happy.

[Bigdoggsteel]

25 minutes ago, LDRover said:

I think you have to recognise that in the last 2 games both teams have cut off the ball into him through the high press as he's been identified as our playmaker.

Prior to that, he was controlling games. That said, we have to find a way of combatting it so we need another playmaker in there or a way of going front to back and winning second balls up the pitch.

Good points

[Bigdoggsteel]

14 minutes ago, tomphil said:

That's how i saw it as well and i think us having a strong bench and being able to do that helped rather than any tactical masterstroke. Could be argued it gave us a big more leg and a base for the last 20.

A point was the target though then until Armstrong did his number, the plaudits are for him from me like i said his manager owes him. Very similar to a league 1 season performance and win.  All toil and disjointed but the strength tells in the end.

Very similar to a league 1 performance. To be honest I can't recall us winning many games at championship level where we payed badly, let alone 2 back to back. It's actually sweet!

[Blue blood]

3 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I'm with you pal. Mrs Shoelaces will tell you nobody wants Rovers to win more than I do. I'm always on cloud nine when we win and I'm sulking for a day or two when we lose. I think I've got worse as I've got older.

Having said that you can only be under par and be winning games for so long. Before too long it'll catch up with you. Remember our first season back down under Keanochio ? We were winning and miss firing, teams gave us too much respect so we got away with it for half a dozen games. Then the penny dropped for our opponents that we weren't actually that good and it was downhill from that point.

If we aren't playing well I don't see much point in trying to convince ourselves that we are. That's been two disjointed home performances on the bounce now. That's against very willing but limited opposition. Looking at both Barnsley and Millwall, how many of their players would you like to see in our first 11 ? We're still no nearer knowing what our best 11 is. Every game throws up more selection questions. We were all pleased to see us sign an solid centre half in Ayala, now people are saying lets get Wharton back in there. Lots of people wanted Johnson back in, now it's lets drop him and get Trybull back. Another quiet game from Holtby and he'll be for the chop.

We'll need to have it sorted for Saturday, Brentford have got a cutting edge, something that Barnsley and Millwall haven't got.

Think this sums up my view too with the following caveats: 

1) it is good to have a player like Armstrong who can dig us out of a hole when we are struggling and not playing well. I think all good teams need this, and it is sometimes what seperates teams in a very tight league. 

2) I think we do have a good plan A, and the majority of the team picks itself. Where Dack fits in is anyone's guess but outside of that, I think about 7 or 8 of the players are likely to play.

The problem for me, was the lack of an effective plan B, as the chuck on a ton of midfielders really didn't seem to work or help the team. We don't seem to have the formation changes to positively affect games if the 4-3-3 is struggling. 

Bereton being out is a big blow, which I never thought I would say. For me he more naturally fits the plan and style than Gally, albeit the latter does give a different dimension. I appreciate injuries are part and parcel of the game but it's a kicker when the lad finally finds some good form, that its interrupted like this. Hopefully he can resume where he left off when he gets back. 

Bit worried about Ayala being rusty, although understandable I suppose. And the game of volleyball at the end didn't reflect well on our defence at all. 

I'm in the I like Buckley camp. Sure, he really needs to bulk up, but if he does that he will be a hell of a player. I hope he's one whose size/stature doesn't limit his career, because he is very good on the ball.. 

I'm a bit stumped how an away kit can cause the very problem it is meant to solve. Another sign of money ruining the game. Not easy for anyone to follow and I shudder to think how my colour blind mate found it. Poor do that.   

.Finally it's always nice to beat that lot given their fans for the most part give Neanderthals a bad name.    

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Very similar to a league 1 performance. To be honest I can't recall us winning many games at championship level where we payed badly, let alone 2 back to back. It's actually sweet!

The last 2 have definitely been screaming to be lost but they've dug out the wins so we can't fault the desire. Touched on it before but i think they are mentally stronger these days.

Also whilst the finger can always be pointed when we concede the real howlers seem to be getting snubbed out for now so that's a big positive. The keeper helps that imo.