The Contract Situation

[J*B]

Thought this deserved its own thread. 

In 23 days Rovers have twelve players out of contract who will be free to make an agreement with foreign clubs to join them on a free in September 2021. These include - 

Lewis Holtby

Ryan Nyambe

Bradley Dack (club have a 12 month option to activate)

Joe Rothwell
Joe Rankin Costello

See LancsLive article here with, IMO, some very concerning quotes from Mowbray: https://www.lancs.live/sport/football/football-news/blackburn-rovers-contracts-update-mowbray-19419343

 

How on earth have we got in a situation where we can lose 4 (maybe even 5) key players for nothing this year? How much would it cost to replace these players? Why have we committed funds to the likes of Downing - who hardly plays - when Mowbray says money is tight?

 

[Miller11]

I’ll be furious if we lose any of these on a free/tribunal. Each and every one of these contracts should’ve been a bigger priority than bringing in Pears, Trybull, Downing, even Elliott and possibly Douglas.

[JHRover]

Who was the last senior player to sign up to a long term deal?

I recall in the months after promotion there was a spate of renewals including Mulgrew, Bennett, Smallwood and Evans. I think Travis maybe since then but expect he was on a low level deal not befitting of his place in the side and that needed sorting.

Anyone else? I can't think of any through the whole of 2019 or 2020.

Bizarre really. I wonder if it is complacency or policy not to do it?

The pandemic is just an excuse. Hasnt stopped others from doing new deals nor did it stop us committing substantial amounts to deals and loans over the summer.

 

[Dreams of 1995]

That is basically the spine of our team right there.

Lewis Holtby, Nyambe and Rothwell are some of our best players. I think we will activate that Dack clause to get another year out of him but even then his fee is substantially reduced.

January must be about getting these lads tied into new deals immediately. I'm pretty apprehensive about this window, and think baring any real miracle we are going to lose 1, if not all, of them. 

[arbitro]

1 hour ago, J*B said:

Thought this deserved its own thread. 

In 23 days Rovers have twelve players out of contract who will be free to make an agreement with foreign clubs to join them on a free in September 2021. These include - 

Lewis Holtby

Ryan Nyambe

Bradley Dack (club have a 12 month option to activate)

Joe Rothwell
Joe Rankin Costello

See LancsLive article here with, IMO, some very concerning quotes from Mowbray: https://www.lancs.live/sport/football/football-news/blackburn-rovers-contracts-update-mowbray-19419343

 

How on earth have we got in a situation where we can lose 4 (maybe even 5) key players for nothing this year? How much would it cost to replace these players? Why have we committed funds to the likes of Downing - who hardly plays - when Mowbray says money is tight?

 

In answer to your question it's down to rank bad management in my view. The agents of these players must be rubbing their hands at the thought of their bargaining position being strengthened by the club. Negligence has been a byword on Waggotts watch.

[philipl]

Mowbray's comment is very concerning. 

Under different ownership I would hazard it is a negotiating stance but it could be their way of finding out what the current market rate is with all the risks that entails.

Equally they might be showing their belated displeasure at the contract awarded to eg Charlie Mulgrew and the comments he made- no doubt we are paying at least 80% of his wage at Fleetwood.

I originally posted this on the transfer thread but have moved it here.

It offers an attempt to rationalise what on the face of it is irrational.

 

Having the contract talks now might be the best timing from the club's perspective and a product of conscious management decision rather than Ewood indolence or Pune not understanding what is needed.

I stress MIGHT. This is just a deduction based on facts we are all aware of- not based on any behind the scenes conversations.

 

1) FFP pressure has reduced since September as a result of the one year delay in enforcing rules as a result of the Covid crisis. Sure we could have talked with agents earlier but we were already at our FFP ceiling and offering better terms would only be at the cost of a transfer ban and points deduction. Better say nothing than say something dumb.

2) In the summer we only had one big money saleable asset and he was a long way from fitness.

3) Because of eye catching performances since September, we are in a much healthier position if we don't go up this season than we were only 12 weeks ago. If we are forced sell one or more players to avoid FFP sanctions, quite a few would each now raise net transfer fees to fund at least two months' operating losses. Even if any one of them suffers an injury like Dack did, we will no longer lose our only get out of FFP jail card. Brereton and Gallagher might not yet command the figures we paid for them in a forced sale but we would get more than gift tokens for them based on the 16 games so far this season. There is a whole thread speculating on how many tens of millions Arma might now be worth..

4) and this is the crunch one- what sort of a contract do we want to give to whom?

Which players would we want to retain for a Premier League squad?  The coming weeks will decide whether this is a realistic question for Rovers.

If it is - let's say we are still within 6 points of top in January - then we will be at the ideal time to write a contract and adjust our wage policy to

- recognise we have become promotion contenders and no longer mid Championship trundlers

- anticipate Premier League pay

- write in a relegation clause if we get to the Premier League (too late to include that at a reasonable wage after promotion). Premier League and EFL talk of ending parachute payments makes relegation clauses potentially existential for a club like Rovers.

 

All the players we fans are hoping will renew are young enough to be offered three year (or more) deals on the table. Holtby would only be 32 at the expiry of a three year deal so these are inevitable considerations in deciding what sort of contracts to offer

IF 

The Raos are willing to write bigger cheques in a gamble on promotion and the FFP risk if we are not celebrating next May/June.

[darrenrover]

The logic Mowbray applies is absolute lunacy on many fronts. His comments are made in a very blasé tone too, his usual shrug of the shoulders.

Pandemic or not, how is it any sense whatsoever to allow multi million pound assets to potentially leave for nothing because we attached no urgency to sitting down and negotiating new deals? Admittedly some of the fringe players who are out of contract probably should be allowed to leave, if it's deemed they're not good enough to cut it at Ewood. The likes of Dack, Nyambe, Holtby etc however, who are key to our future success, are hardly likely to pull their tripe out in a potential promotion run in, if they feel unwanted by The Club. Their minds will be focussed on their next moves to pastures new.

It's almost as if as soon as we smell the possibility of a bit of success, the hierarchy can't wait to contrive to kick us all in the nuts.

A motivational press release all round Mogga, well done, you dick!

Edited December 8, 2020 by darrenrover

[Dreams of 1995]

9 minutes ago, darrenrover said:

The logic Mowbray applies is absolute lunacy on many fronts. His comments are made in a very blasé tone too, his usual shrug of the shoulders.

Pandemic or not, how is it any sense whatsoever to allow multi million pound assets to potentially leave for nothing because we attached no urgency to sitting down and negotiating new deals? Admittedly some of the fringe players who are out of contract probably should be allowed to leave, if it's deemed they're not good enough to cut it at Ewood. The likes of Dack, Nyambe, Holtby etc however, who are key to our future success, are hardly likely to pull their tripe out in a potential promotion run in, if they feel unwanted by The Club. Their minds will be focussed on their next moves to pastures new.

It's almost as if as soon as we smell the possibility of a bit of success, the hierarchy can't wait to contrive to kick us all in the nuts.

A motivational press release all round Mogga, well done, you dick!

I have to begrudgingly agree to most of this. 
It makes those contracts handed out to other players last year all a bit more weird. Why did we give Hart and Smallwood extensions, albeit limited, when such important players were nearly out themselves? Makes no sense at all.  

[Atko's Engine]

I can understand the concern here, it being 3 weeks or so off the new window & certain key players being able to talk to others. Nyambe is the most perplexing for me as he is young, experienced & showing most potential for a modern fullback. Not signing him up yet is deffo a mistake. Possibly JRC too, although I doubt he is as highly sought after.

The others though? Yes they are viewed as key players now, but they weren't considered as such by many on here in the summer. Armstrong, despite his good form since Dack's injury,wasn't really considered a magnet for PL attention in the summer, but the way he has kicked on this season means we now have genuine concern for keeping him. Rothwell was seen as flattering to deceive, producing the odd gem but nowhere near often enough. Dack 9 months through a year long injury, with no guarantee of his fitness on his return, plus there's a 12 month option. Holtby; seen as a disappointment, and likewise Johnson, even maybe considered a flop.

They've all become far, far more important players to us since the start of this season than before, perhaps more so than even TM expected when he set on his 433.  If all those had been given 12 - 24 month extensions in August or September, I suspect there would've been quite a bit of unrest here. 

But we now need to pull out all the stops to keep all of them. The price of progress perhaps?

[Tom]

Nyambe would be a catastrophe, I’ve said for a long time I think he’s potentially the best right back in the league but has lost his place to Bennett and Rankin Costello, there’s not even been real strong talk about a contract being close.

I think he’s off.

Rothwell is an interesting one, he’d no doubt like to play more but I think we and him are a good match and he’s unlikely to have offers from much more attractive teams.

I think Holtby will be off, back to the continent somewhere; which again would be a huge loss.

[Mattc93]

If these players are able to seemingly walk away with no effort to invest in them by our club then it’s worrying times ahead. It would send out a strong message that the club aren’t interested in achieving promotion and are happy to just carry on plodding along being penny wise pound foolish. Venky’s need to back Mowbray financially and Mowbray then needs to ensure these players contracts are prioritised in January. If these players are neglected, it will leave lasting scars on the club we feel possesses more potential than we’ve seen in a decade. Please get this right Venky’s and Mowbray, doing so will benefit everyone associated with the club. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Mattc93

[JHRover]

Anyone else get the impression that we are just coming to the end of another Venky cycle?

That this season is make or break insofar as our immediate future is concerned, that the money taps will be turned down again to a trickle after this season if we don't achieve promotion?

Remember Bowyer got 2.5 years at it in the Championship, decent backing for players and wasn't forced to sell anyone during that time. Then when it became clear we weren't going to do it in year 3 he was binned off and we cut costs right back for a couple of years.

This summer was their 'big push' as they didn't force any sales, allowed some decent loans and frees to come into the club in the hope it would get us up. Review in the summer and see how it has gone but until then no more. 

I'm only speculating but this would perhaps be the only logical explanation for the complete inertia and lack of interest in securing these lads down to new deals. They've no interest nor intention of dealing with these issues because their plans only go as far as this summer and beyond that everything depends on where we are, where their businesses are and how they feel when it is summit meeting time. They ain't going to commit to long term contracts, salary increases and increased expenditure when they can get a load more off the wage bill come the summer if they feel that way inclined.

We all know it is stupidity and senseless but I'm not sure they do, or even care about that. Reading Mowbray's press comments it seems he feels he needs to regularly remind them of the importance of players being under long term contracts yet they don't seem to be taking any interest in it. 

Where does Waggott fit into all this? A Chief Executive tasked with balancing the books and growing the clubs assets would be on the phone daily pressing for answers and authorisation yet here he sits worrying about how many Platinum Club tickets he can flog for an extra £200 whilst Mowbray is the one banging the drum on contracts.

If we lose Nyambe, JRC, Rothwell, Dack or Armstrong for nothing or knock down fees then everything they've talked about over the last 3 years has been shown to be meaningless, because a club run properly and conscious of income and assets would not allow this to happen.

[Guest]

There's more than just Dack with a 12-month option.

[Mercer]

Think we have four big problems:

• Holtby - career 'resurrected' and with a wife in Germany, difficult to see why he wont look to head back there
• Nyambe - said it for a while, potentially a beast of a right back but, IMO, Mowbray has fecked him about and if I was his agent, I know what my advice would be.............
• Dack - if he can prove his form and fitness, it may well be now or never for PL
• Rothwell - this lad both excites and frustrates.  One of the few players we have who makes me move to the edge of my seat.  Needs to add consistency but will only come with regular game time and experience.  Again, IMO, as with Nyambe, Mowbray has not managed him well and if agent gets involved........

[JHRover]

The 12 month options are not satisfactory alternatives. They are not the same as agreeing contract extensions and invoking them does not solve the situation, only kicks it down the road for another few months and ensures the worst case doesn't happen. Short termism at it's finest. Activate a clause to avoid disaster but actually only push the player nearer to the exit by making him feel even less valued.

What club in their right minds would activate a 12 month option on a player of Dack's importance rather than get him secured into a 3-4 year deal?

I know if it was me and the club told me that they were activating the extension and keeping me for another 12 months on the same terms as at present rather than offering me a better and longer deal I wouldn't be impressed. Far from it I'd be asking myself just how serious they were about keeping me and my colleagues and building forward. All the while agents and rivals whispering and telling him to look after himself for the season then get a hefty signing on fee in a year's time on a free transfer.

I would envisage a Messi style scenario where the player accepts he's staying for another 6-12 months but has one eye on next summer and a likely exit when the club doesn't have the power any more. 

Look around and there aren't many clubs who do this sort of thing, certainly not to their best players. They anticipate things a couple of years before the iceberg arrives and take action to avoid it. We seem to just be heading straight for the iceberg, keep on going, but take some consolation in the fact we've a life boat to use when we get there. Great we might not drown because of it but the ship still sinks and we've left bobbling around in the ocean with not much left.

Edited December 8, 2020 by JHRover

[47er]

Absolutely no point whatsoever getting excited about the squad TM has assembled over 3 years or so if other clubs are going to take them for free.

What the hell's going on here?

Don't we want to progress?

 

 

[47er]

40 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Anyone else get the impression that we are just coming to the end of another Venky cycle?

 

Bloody hell, what an awful thought. If that does become the case, after all we've been through and we lose the players we've gradually got together, then that will be the end of a 60 year love affair for me. 

[darrenrover]

25 minutes ago, 47er said:

Bloody hell, what an awful thought. If that does become the case, after all we've been through and we lose the players we've gradually got together, then that will be the end of a 60 year love affair for me. 

Me too 47er, only difference being 6 years less. That would be the straw that broke the camel's back for me, there comes a point when enough is enough.

I am still only just getting over the appointment of Coyle!

[SoldierMo]

I blame waggott and mowbray slow bloody dinosaurs...its a joke

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, Mercer said:

Holtby - career 'resurrected' and with a wife in Germany, difficult to see why he wont look to head back there

Going off Holtby's Instagram posts his wife is over in Manchester with him. 

2 hours ago, Mercer said:

Rothwell - this lad both excites and frustrates.  One of the few players we have who makes me move to the edge of my seat.  Needs to add consistency but will only come with regular game time and experience.  Again, IMO, as with Nyambe, Mowbray has not managed him well and if agent gets involved........

He should be one of first to be sign up. Hes enjoying his football and in his new centre midfielder role

[perthblue02]

Time for BRFCS members to step up and search all the deep recesses of the internet for any link between the soon to be out of contract players and Teeside and email them to TM.

Whether it's Rothwell once had a ice cream at Saltburn beach,  Holtby had a nice bit of Lemon Drizzle cake in a lovely tea shop near Guisborough Priory . Nyambe has a eighth cousin twice removed who plays for Boro's under 8's etc. Every little helps

C'mon BRFCS , we can do this!

Edited December 9, 2020 by perthblue02

[philipl]

Are they all on club 12 month options?

That will make a difference on vulnerability.

[JacknOry]

Think Nyambe will go.

Probably going to be Holtby's last major contract - so is he holding out for a step up back to the PL? 

Rothwell may sign but again, could come down to what we offer compared to other clubs.

Dack, not sure what is going on there. Was in talks long before his injury and here we still are. Is the club holding out on that one until he returns and shows he still has it? I know we have the extension but you could understand if he is a little frustrated considering how long this has gone on.

JRC will sign - cannot see many others taking much of an interest at this moment in time and he was getting regular minutes.

[EwoodGlory]

1 hour ago, philipl said:

Are they all on club 12 month options?

That will make a difference on vulnerability.

Don't think nyambe is, its never been mentioned before. 

[Stuart]

Is anyone looking for an answer other than ‘money’?

IMHO...

Our wage structure is set up to not reward senior players: if you do well and want to earn more you have to leave.

In parallel is Mowbray’s ‘right character’ philosophy that says: if you get us promoted that’s where the rewards are. If you don’t like that then you’ve got an attitude problem.

Footballers don’t care about clubs (barring one or two exceptions) and they don’t care about the manager. Their careers are short, with the existential threat of it being even shorter. They care about money, contract length and game time.

What annoys me most is that this wage ceiling we’ve imposed on ourselves could be higher if we hadn’t thrown away £12m unnecessarily. We could have got better players did a fraction of the price and used the money more wisely. Every time you see Brereton and Gallagher in the line up, remember that this is at the expense of a sound reward and retention strategy.

Nyambe, for one, has been badly managed - dropped for Bennett FFS - and should be sold for minimum £5m in today’s market. If we are going to sign players on a promise of developing them and then not standing in their way when a good offer comes in then we have to actually develop them and ensure offers are forthcoming.

Mowbray’s high footballing values and Waggott’s low standards are a bad combination and ambitious players will drift in between the lines. If you are asked to work to higher standards than your peers in the industry then there needs to be higher reward than them. It’s promotion on the cheap or “we go again”. (At least for as long as we sustain the debt and/or Venkys don’t get bored).