The Contract Situation

[philipl]

Wages weren't reduced when we dropped into League 1 but the structure was gently revised upwards when we went back up.

The clubs target I believe has been to be in the second quartile of Championship wages.

If there is rationality at work here, it is going to be because of the risk of promotion again.

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

14 minutes ago, philipl said:

Wages weren't reduced when we dropped into League 1 but the structure was gently revised upwards when we went back up.

The clubs target I believe has been to be in the second quartile of Championship wages.

If there is rationality at work here, it is going to be because of the risk of promotion again.

That's clearly nonsense. Mowbray pointed out  few times that the players had all had to take a pay cut when we got relegated. 

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

9 hours ago, JoeH said:

There's more than just Dack with a 12-month option.

Where are you getting this from? - it's the 2nd time you've said it.

Dack's option is well known. Sharpe knew about it ages ago. If the others had extensions in their contracts that would surely be public too?

[47er]

9 hours ago, 47er said:

Bloody hell, what an awful thought. If that does become the case, after all we've been through and we lose the players we've gradually got together, then that will be the end of a 60 year love affair for me. 

Sorry---make that "70 year love affair." Tempus fugit and all that!

[RevidgeBlue]

I blame Moggasaurus and the spiv Swaggott. Venky's probably aren't even aware this is such a major issue and that the situation was so urgent. It's probably  too late now.

There always seems to be plenty of money to give over the hill and/or average players like Mulgrew, Evans, Bennett or Graham an un necessarily generous and lengthy contract extension. Or give a non playing player like Gladwin another deal because we were feeling sorry for him or pay Hart and Smallwood for 12 months to do nothing then give them another month when the season was extended. Or give Downing another deal to top up his pension fund.

But when it comes to securing a key player, "computer says no". It's down to the manager to anticipate these potential problems well in advance, recognise who is a key player and who isn't, keep the squad size under control and dispense ruthlessly with deadwood so that we can look after our important players when the time comes.

[JBiz]

21 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

I blame Moggasaurus and the spiv Swaggott.

It's down to the manager to anticipate these potential problems well in advance, recognise who is a key player and who isn't, keep the squad size under control and dispense ruthlessly with deadwood so that we can look after our important players when the time comes.

I’m not sure any football league club could’ve anticipated what’s gone on this season, the potential problem of 10% usual season ticket sales, a huge drop in commercial income and no fans potentially allowed in the ground for the first half of the season.

Budgets are normally set the season before, and whilst I would agree with the concern of losing some of our best young players for free, similar to what happened to Hoilett - I would afford every team in the FL a bit of leeway in terms of being able to deal with a scenario that’s required 500m+ in emergency funds for league 1/2 from the PL and other streams.

Decimated is a how I’d describe the impact on the (already teetering) finance of most clubs this year. 

It may be a good thing in the long term however - some examples of how this may force a “reboot” of clubs finances, with all cutting back more and thus players having to take cuts rather than upgrades;

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/may/08/covid-19-impact-on-football-10-years-get-back-where-we-were-managers-players-scout
 

QPR Warburton; “ I really think it could be another 10 years before we get back to a financial level similar to now” 

I imagine our problems on the contract front are echoed across the football league, where £ discussed for new contracts/extensions/upgrades is a complete different picture post pandemic.

The potential, which the initial post illustrates - some European/further afield countries have been impacted far less than our leagues - the chance of losing young lads abroad for nothing is probably magnified because of this.

Also the premier league with their spending power will likely end up cleaning up some of these players from multiple clubs - have a look at how serious this issue is across the league; https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/championship/endendevertraege/wettbewerb/GB2

 

One thing I think all rovers fans will agree on, we will sleep better when the likes of Nyambe et al are tied down on longer contracts!

Edited December 9, 2020 by JBiz

[RevidgeBlue]

5 minutes ago, JBiz said:

One thing I think all rovers fans will agree on, we will sleep better when the likes of Nyambe et al are tied down on longer contracts!

Not sure why, in Nyambe's case especially it won't be with us!

I think the Covid situation is a convenvenient excuse and a complete red herring. The need to tie down our best players on a long term basis was evident long before anyone ever heard of Covid and every Club is in the same boat in that respect. We are also completely reliant on our owners to fund the operation anyhow, we don't come anywhere near to washing our face financially without their backing  at the best of times.

[JBiz]

1 minute ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Not sure why, in Nyambe's case especially it won't be with us!

I think the Covid situation is a convenvenient excuse and a complete red herring. The need to tie down our best players on a long term basis was evident long before anyone ever heard of Covid and every Club is in the same boat in that respect. We are also completely reliant on our owners to fund the operation anyhow, we don't come anywhere near to washing our face financially without their backing  at the best of times.

What about FFP?

Now I know it’s obviously been ignored by some clubs, but the idea is the owners can pump in a fixed amount. If you lose 5m, or 10m in income, it doesn’t mean the owners can put more in, it means you’ve got to cut back.

The link to transfer market - how good of a team could you build on free transfers in 2021 potentially?

Josh King -            Assombalonga    
                       Dack

Reach.                             Osei Samuel

                      Bacuna

Richards  Cabango  Kabasele Femenia

                      Begovic 

 

[philipl]

This is an eye opener for this season:

Average player salary in million U.S. dollars
Bayern Munich	8.12
Borussia Dortmund	4.97
Bayer Leverkusen	3.19
RB Leipzig	2.42
Wolfsburg	2.41
Schalke	2.19
Borussia Monchengladbach	1.92
Hoffenheim	1.7
Werder Bremen	1.57
Eintracht Frankfurt	1.54
Hertha Berlin	1.3
FC Koln	1.22
Augsburg	1.02
Mainz	0.85
Fortuna Dusseldorf	0.76
SC Freiburg	0.73
Union Berlin	0.68
Paderborn	0.42

[philipl]

If anyone thinks Phil Jones or Jesse Lingard would be good pick-ups for Rovers probably won't when you see they are both on £3.9 million per year.

Gareth Bale is scraping by on £31 million a year.

The problem for any rich owner is they are pumping into clubs and then realise that the players are getting bigger wages than the money they use in a year on themselves to live on. At that point a light goes on.

It certainly did for the family beneficiaries of the Walker Trust.

Edited December 9, 2020 by philipl

[JHRover]

New contracts spread over 3 or 4 years will barely make a dint in FFP calculations.

The point of course is that the financial consequences and damage caused to FFP calculations of giving these players improved terms is chicken feed compared to the costs of losing them for nothing or millions less than their worth and then subsequently having to bring in an alternative (transfer fee, signing on fee, wages, agents fee).

Very silly to suggest that not giving out new deals is some sort of cunning plan to ensure FFP compliance. It just means we have to allocate our resources down the line to replacing these players at considerable expense and difficulty 

The world carries on spinning. To suggest that the entire football world is in hibernation doing nothing until normality resumes is incorrect. Middlesbrough have renewed half their squad on new deals. Accy Stanley have granted new deals!

There's really no more to it than we are a shambles of an operation. As I say it wouldn't happen at a club genuinely concerned about FFP or its asset base. But I don't think that has ever been anything but a convenient excuse here.

[philipl]

Apparently we were within tens of thousands of busting FFP this summer.

As in within tens of thousands of a points deduction.

Rovers supporters consistently are in self-denial about this.

 

Looking at other clubs, Max Meyer at Crystal Palace and Conor Townshend at WBA are both on £6 million a year- bargains!!!

[JBiz]

The idea that FFP might impact future budgets in a pandemic where clubs have lost huge levels of income doesn’t seem silly to me @JHRover

Doesn't seem silly to UEFA either;

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jun/18/uefa-agree-to-suspend-financial-fair-play-rules-due-to-pandemic
 

Also, an actual manager at a championship club suggesting FL finances may be impacted for up to ten years might be a better opinion to take some insight from, rather than another “we’re a shambles” to the countless pile.

Edited December 9, 2020 by JBiz

[JHRover]

Just now, JBiz said:

The idea that FFP might impact future budgets in a pandemic where clubs have lost huge levels of income doesn’t seem silly to me @JHRover

Doesn't seem silly to UEFA either;

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jun/18/uefa-agree-to-suspend-financial-fair-play-rules-due-to-pandemic
 

Also, an actual manager at a championship club suggesting FL finances may be impacted for up to ten years might be a better opinion to take some insight from, rather than another “we’re a shambles” to the countless pile.

As I say, I don't doubt that finances are affected.

It hasn't stopped us spending significantly over the summer.

It hasn't stopped half the league sorting out new contracts, paying transfer fees, sacking off managers etc. The football world keeps going.

It won't stop us needing to spend to bring in replacements in the summer for Holtby, Nyambe, Rothwell etc. if they walk out the door. The cost of those replacements in the short term is likely to be greater than the expense of increasing their wages on new contracts. 

FFP won't even apply anyway, but again how can the likes of Derby, Forest, Wednesday, Bristol City, Reading all afford to fire off management teams and employ new ones within FFP restraints and the pandemic yet we can't get moving with negotiations on 3-4 key players worth millions to the club.

You've only got to look at the half arsed, slow, lazy approach to ticketing, merchandise, sponsorship and maintenance of our stadium to work out what is going on here

Owners who couldn't give a stuff and a manager and CEO under little pressure or expectation to do anything about it.

[K-Hod]

15 minutes ago, philipl said:

Apparently we were within tens of thousands of busting FFP this summer.

As in within tens of thousands of a points deduction.

Rovers supporters consistently are in self-denial about this.

 

Looking at other clubs, Max Meyer at Crystal Palace and Conor Townshend at WBA are both on £6 million a year- bargains!!!

Don’t think we are in denial, just don’t think there has been much in the way of my old pal evidence (bar whispers on here).

[philipl]

2 minutes ago, JHRover said:

As I say, I don't doubt that finances are affected.

It hasn't stopped us spending significantly over the summer.

It hasn't stopped half the league sorting out new contracts, paying transfer fees, sacking off managers etc. The football world keeps going.

It won't stop us needing to spend to bring in replacements in the summer for Holtby, Nyambe, Rothwell etc. if they walk out the door. The cost of those replacements in the short term is likely to be greater than the expense of increasing their wages on new contracts. 

FFP won't even apply anyway, but again how can the likes of Derby, Forest, Wednesday, Bristol City, Reading all afford to fire off management teams and employ new ones within FFP restraints and the pandemic yet we can't get moving with negotiations on 3-4 key players worth millions to the club.

You've only got to look at the half arsed, slow, lazy approach to ticketing, merchandise, sponsorship and maintenance of our stadium to work out what is going on here

Owners who couldn't give a stuff and a manager and CEO under little pressure or expectation to do anything about it.

 

There was a pot with a ceiling beyond which league points get deducted.

As with any budget you decide your priorities.

We saw our priorities which was to bolster the squad size and with the two games a week and injuries that has proven 100% correct. Contracts are an emergency now but at least we have a promotion campaign to worry about protecting which we wouldn't have had we jollied up all the existing players' wages in the summer as a price for three year new contracts and not been able to call on the five new signings.

This is revealing. Sparks Rover is out of touch obviously. (or perhaps an agent setting wage expectations for his cut to come from)

For several years, overall spending on player and staff wages in the Championship has exceeded revenue, and the questionnaire, reported by the Daily Mail on Tuesday, showed that of the 18 Championship clubs who responded, the average basic monthly pay for their highest earner is 1.51 million pounds ($1.9 million) a year, which makes a monthly salary of 125,797 pounds.

The best paid player in the report earned an annual salary of 3.54 million pounds, or 294,666 pounds a month. The figures from the 2019-20 season do not include win bonuses or other payments.

In League One, where 15 of the 24 clubs responded, the average highest earner is on 247,188 pounds a year and in League Two, where 14 responded, it is 114,020 pounds.

However, one player is paid 13,000 pounds for a year in the Championship, and two in Leagues One and Two received just 7,800 pounds.

The highest-paid Championship manager was reportedly paid 3.46 million pounds a year, with an average across the division of 878,000 pounds a year.

In League Two, the average manager’s annual income is 79,462 pounds, with the lowest-paid manager in the Football League receiving 45,000.

One physiotherapist at a Championship side in the Midlands was earning 191,000 pounds a year, although that was almost three times the league average. At one Championship club, the kitman earned 56,000 pounds a year.

The average salary for a chief executive or managing director in the Championship was 295,179 pounds, with one CEO picking up 740,000. In League One, that average fell to 89,566 pounds. ($1 = 0.8017 pounds) (Reporting by Simon Evans; Editing by Hugh Lawson)

Our Standards: The Thomson Reuters Trust Principles.

[arbitro]

16 minutes ago, philipl said:

Apparently we were within tens of thousands of busting FFP this summer.

As in within tens of thousands of a points deduction.

Rovers supporters consistently are in self-denial about this.

 

Looking at other clubs, Max Meyer at Crystal Palace and Conor Townshend at WBA are both on £6 million a year- bargains!!!

Apparently?

Somebody should have told Mowbray and Swag when they spunked tens of thousands on contract extensions for players who had no (or very little) chance of playing. Or paying £30k to charter a plane to Cardiff for essentially a dead rubber.

[philipl]

7 minutes ago, K-Hod said:

Don’t think we are in denial, just don’t think there has been much in the way of my old pal evidence (bar whispers on here).

https://offthepitch.com/a/blackburn-ceo-says-club-are-operating-around-threshold-ffp

[philipl]

3 minutes ago, arbitro said:

Apparently?

Somebody should have told Mowbray and Swag when they spunked tens of thousands on contract extensions for players who had no (or very little) chance of playing. Or paying £30k to charter a plane to Cardiff for essentially a dead rubber.

You will get asked to produce evidence of the air charter...

I believe you.

[JBiz]

6 minutes ago, JHRover said:

As I say, I don't doubt that finances are affected.

It hasn't stopped us spending significantly over the summer.

It hasn't stopped half the league sorting out new contracts, paying transfer fees, sacking off managers etc. The football world keeps going.

It won't stop us needing to spend to bring in replacements in the summer for Holtby, Nyambe, Rothwell etc. if they walk out the door. The cost of those replacements in the short term is likely to be greater than the expense of increasing their wages on new contracts. 

FFP won't even apply anyway, but again how can the likes of Derby, Forest, Wednesday, Bristol City, Reading all afford to fire off management teams and employ new ones within FFP restraints and the pandemic yet we can't get moving with negotiations on 3-4 key players worth millions to the club.

You've only got to look at the half arsed, slow, lazy approach to ticketing, merchandise, sponsorship and maintenance of our stadium to work out what is going on here

Owners who couldn't give a stuff and a manager and CEO under little pressure or expectation to do anything about it.

The spending over the summer is a budget made months before.

I also think that many deals would’ve been started / scouted way before anyone knew we’d be out the stadium for so long.
 

That income plays into this, do you think the agents of Nyambe, Holtby and Dack have agreed to cuts or lower upgrades?

Football in the championship is purely risk & reward. For a club that’s so poorly run in your eyes, we’re talking about a summer that saw us heavily invest in the playing squad.

If we’d merely signed up these lads on longer deals, the problem would’ve been a lack of investment.

Not every decision is going to be universally agreed with - Downing, someone used as a specific example of wastage - we’ve already needed him due to the amount of squad missing... didn’t his play lead directly to our winner vs Millwall?

The best reward of investing in a big season would mean better contracts for those in the last years anyway, because promotion would see the squad likely double the average wage in one summer.

[JHRover]

41 minutes ago, philipl said:

Apparently we were within tens of thousands of busting FFP this summer.

As in within tens of thousands of a points deduction.

Rovers supporters consistently are in self-denial about this.

 

Looking at other clubs, Max Meyer at Crystal Palace and Conor Townshend at WBA are both on £6 million a year- bargains!!!

So what you are saying is that if we were sat bottom of the table now on 0 points and getting beat 5-0 every week we wouldn't be able to change manager like any other club does?

Because sacking Mowbray would cost more than thousands of pounds and would result in a points deduction?

Not having that for one minute.

[Eddie]

January isn't THAT important of a deadline. Hotlby may well get some interest from Germany and Nyambe could get some interest from abroad, but I think that would be about it. When you then factor in that they are unlikely to get huge offers I would think that we won't face that much pressure until the end of the season.

That being said, we may not already be at a point where they have all decided that they will test the market. We've already seen this play out with Downing and I'm sure a few of them would find their way back to Rovers even if they did try their luck.

What also has to be factored in here is that the club might be gambling on the possibility that we may go up before we start making serious offers to some of these players. The prospect of promotion might change our interest in a couple of expiring contracts for players that we think are good at this level, but not good enough to make the step up.

There are reasons for both sides to be sitting this one out and I'm not overly concerned...yet.

[LeftWinger]

16 minutes ago, Eddie said:

What also has to be factored in here is that the club might be gambling on the possibility that we may go up before we start making serious offers to some of these players. The prospect of promotion might change our interest in a couple of expiring contracts for players that we think are good at this level, but not good enough to make the step up.

An absolute ridiculous gamble to take. 

The bookies have us at between 7/2 and 6/1 to get promoted - suggesting they reckon there is a likelihood of between 78 and 86% chance that we WON'T get promoted.

Then we risk losing Nyambe, Holtby, Rothwell and JRC for next to nothing and making us even less likely to get promoted next season.

[islander200]

1 hour ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Not sure why, in Nyambe's case especially it won't be with us!

I think the Covid situation is a convenvenient excuse and a complete red herring. The need to tie down our best players on a long term basis was evident long before anyone ever heard of Covid and every Club is in the same boat in that respect. We are also completely reliant on our owners to fund the operation anyhow, we don't come anywhere near to washing our face financially without their backing  at the best of times.

I do agree that contract should have been sorted out, but what do the likes of Armstrong and Dack want now.

Going off the managers comments from last year we had been in negotiations with Dack but he hadn't signed a new deal.

Dack has been out with a serious injury for 12 month, will he be the same player?

Could anyone have foreseen the improvement in Armstrong the last 10 month? 

Certainly Armstrong could probably get a multi year contract on at least 30k a week if he was to move on.

Rothwell although an obvious talent he hasn't been a regular whilst here, and has been very inconsistent in his time at the club, again how much of an improvement in terms will he want.

The Nyambe situation is the one that really gets to me, he should be tied down to a longer contract.Dont think the manager rates him too much though he leaves him out every opportunity he gets.

FFP might be taking a back seat for now but if it comes back into play will we be FFp compliant if we give the players what they want.

If we don't go up this season then at least one big money sale will most likely have to happen and Armstrong would surely get the most interest and bring the biggest fee in.

[philipl]

1 hour ago, JHRover said:

So what you are saying is that if we were sat bottom of the table now on 0 points and getting beat 5-0 every week we wouldn't be able to change manager like any other club does?

Because sacking Mowbray would cost more than thousands of pounds and would result in a points deduction?

Not having that for one minute.

I am saying there is a limit to what can be spent before FFP cuts in.

In your scenario, I'd sack Mowbray and look for a new Manager hamstrung by having to sell players and reduce the wage bill.