The Contract Situation

[Blue blood]

21 hours ago, JHRover said:

A quick look at the behaviour and CV of Waggott's predecessor Paul Senior and there are similarities. Another one who turned up here out of the blue with an odd background in football, suddenly installed as the top dog at Rovers, welcomed by many as a much needed communication link to the fans, turning up for fans forum meetings and doing the rounds at Ewood on matchday telling people what they want to hear.

All very cosy, approachable, nice guy, always happy to answer questions and entertain people, make them think things were happening.

But in the end he came and went, god knows how much he was on for his 6 month stint and next to nothing of any significance happened. Next news he is advising on education in Scotland. How he landed that one who knows but another one where talking the talk gets you where you need to be.

These people move around the country doing a couple of years here and there taking home massive salaries. A core part of their job is keeping everyone happy and being seen on the ground. Maybe that is what Venkys like - a figurehead who will deal with the supporters and keep them quiet. It is one of their skills to keep the various 'components' to the organisation happy.

It is quite clear with Waggott that he likes to talk the talk then when the bad patch arrives he disappears for a month until the dust settles and then back out again. 

Despite all the talk a quick look at what has actually happened on his watch makes for poor reading.

Consistent decline in attendances at least in part to his pricing - yet excused due to Covid

Talk about a new Riverside - never gone anywhere

Talk about a new pitch - never went anywhere

Talk about a new super duper training ground - never went anywhere

Talk about new signings at Brockhall with their suitcases ready to sign - never went anywhere

Talk about senior players signing new contracts - never went anywhere

There's a theme appearing here - things he talks about, promises, says are going to happen don't do. 

Meanwhile 4 years on the payroll and we've lost £80 million in that time, no longer own Brockhall, have failed FFP and are facing a mass exodus in the summer with precious few assets on the books.

 

You missed him trying to flog Brockhall ok the sly as well. Something he has previous at with Coventry. 

And if we are being really pedantic he has also overseen a manager on 2 of the worst runs I can remember in living memory and missed his own stated target last year. 

Not sure how anyone can think he is either honest or competent really based on his own actions and words. 

[RoversClitheroe]

Anyone reckon Nyambe and Rothwell have actually signed extensions? 

Body language and social media makes me think they might have?

[Bigdoggsteel]

On 02/12/2021 at 17:11, Blue blood said:

You missed him trying to flog Brockhall ok the sly as well. Something he has previous at with Coventry. 

And if we are being really pedantic he has also overseen a manager on 2 of the worst runs I can remember in living memory and missed his own stated target last year. 

Not sure how anyone can think he is either honest or competent really based on his own actions and words. 

Or was that a masterstroke 😉

[1864roverite]

3 hours ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Anyone reckon Nyambe and Rothwell have actually signed extensions? 

Body language and social media makes me think they might have?

I’ve not seen anything on social media regarding this

[RoversClitheroe]

3 hours ago, 1864roverite said:

I’ve not seen anything on social media regarding this

I should have added social media activity from said players.

Don't look like players that want to leave

[roversfan99]

Why wouldnt it be announced? Social media is just a platform for the same textbook soundbites anyway but there is no suggestion that any of them have ever been unhappy or actively seeking a new club, but it seems that we dont have the money to get them to stay.

[MarkBRFC]

On 05/12/2021 at 10:58, RoversClitheroe said:

Anyone reckon Nyambe and Rothwell have actually signed extensions? 

Body language and social media makes me think they might have?

No.

The club wouldn't stop banging on about it if that was the case, especially with half season tickets on sale.

"Ryan Nyambe is committed, are YOU? Half Season Tickets on sale now etc etc" 

[chaddyrovers]

 

[chaddyrovers]

 

 

[Silas]

9 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

Really open, honest, and sensible response that.

Can't argue with any of it.

His demeanor seemed different than usual. Maybe because the pressure is off a bit with the team high up the league he's not on the defensive all the time.

It felt like he was including the fans for once rather than talking down to them.

[roversfan99]

There is the proof that it is solely down to the finances coming from the owners. Not FFP, not down to their "treatment" from the manager, the owners are being cheapskates and are set to allow a promising core of players to break apart. Venkys Out.

[tomphil]

He never sounds in two minds at once more like five !

Yes there has been a pandemic and its affected every club in the land one way or another yet we've taken in 30 million recently allegedly.  So the books should be balancing and there is the inevitable Diaz sale on the horizon in the next 12 to 18 months if he stays fit and firing.

Surely there is enough there to be confident enough to commit to some of these players who are unlikely to be asking for 25k per week. At least one of them with be worth decent money in a year or two so it can be covered.

Where is the ambition Venkys ?   Why are you just happy to spaff 20 million a year going nowhere ?

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by tomphil

[SuperBrfc]

It's clear as day from that interview that the contract situation is all down to the owners, not Mowbray.

You could tell he was trying his best to be polite to the owners. This line said it all for me: "I found myself almost questioning, er, not their ambition". It's obvious what he was trying to say there, but he reeled himself in.

His demeanor was more upbeat too which is good to see. I really think he's starting to believe now. The owners need to wake up and show some ambition! Now isn't the time to try and do things on the cheap.

[Oldgregg86]

Thank god they never refuse to sign a cheque or we could loose all momentum and valuable assets 

all say after me

”where would we be without the venkys “

[riverholmes]

In that article, Mowbray talks about the dilemma of taking a risk with offering big contracts or letting players run down their contracts and leave: “There’s the dilemma for the club and I feel for the men in suits at the club and let’s wait and see."

This presentation excuses Mowbray and the club by omitting the option of planning ahead and cashing in on players who aren't going to stay. A well-run and sustainable club identifies expiring contracts early, to utilise the transfer market to raise income. The manager and board must jointly identify players who are potentially replaceable and irreplaceable. Those who are considered potentially replaceable and have a relatively high value should be sold before entering their final year of their contract - ideally, well before. It is a fine balancing act, of course, as too many sales together might undermine the stability of the squad. It's a little more difficult with the potentially irreplaceables and you might cling on to them a little longer if it's the difference between a promotion run or of avoiding relegation.

To my mind, Rovers should have sold at least one of Lenihan, Rothwell or Nyambe last summer (assuming they would have had a buyer) and sought to replace them back then. Likewise, this coming year, the club have to cash in on some of the contract rebels/expirers - whilst, again, trying to maintain some stability. This includes squad players like Jacob Davenport, who the club should be seeking out buyers right now, if he's not going to stay on beyond 2022/23. Unless the owners are going to constantly inject money into the club, it's unsustainable to be letting so many first teamers leave on frees. 

Now that there's a possibility of a promotion run, it makes sense to keep the first team together until the end of the season - but, if we're not promoted, we will suffer a major loss by losing the players, that could have been minimised by planning.

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by riverholmes

[JacknOry]

1 hour ago, riverholmes said:

In that article, Mowbray talks about the dilemma of taking a risk with offering big contracts or letting players run down their contracts and leave: “There’s the dilemma for the club and I feel for the men in suits at the club and let’s wait and see."

This presentation excuses Mowbray and the club by omitting the option of planning ahead and cashing in on players who aren't going to stay. A well-run and sustainable club identifies expiring contracts early, to utilise the transfer market to raise income. The manager and board must jointly identify players who are potentially replaceable and irreplaceable. Those who are considered potentially replaceable and have a relatively high value should be sold before entering their final year of their contract - ideally, well before. It is a fine balancing act, of course, as too many sales together might undermine the stability of the squad. It's a little more difficult with the potentially irreplaceables and you might cling on to them a little longer if it's the difference between a promotion run or of avoiding relegation.

To my mind, Rovers should have sold at least one of Lenihan, Rothwell or Nyambe last summer (assuming they would have had a buyer) and sought to replace them back then. Likewise, this coming year, the club have to cash in on some of the contract rebels/expirers - whilst, again, trying to maintain some stability. This includes squad players like Jacob Davenport, who the club should be seeking out buyers right now, if he's not going to stay on beyond 2022/23. Unless the owners are going to constantly inject money into the club, it's unsustainable to be letting so many first teamers leave on frees. 

Now that there's a possibility of a promotion run, it makes sense to keep the first team together until the end of the season - but, if we're not promoted, we will suffer a major loss by losing the players, that could have been minimised by planning.

 

 

 

Exactly, we should never be in a position where players can run down their contracts and walk for free. As you say, they should resolve the situation before they get into their final year. Its sign or get sold. Now, players not only have the potential improved wages to look forward to, but a larger signing on fee too. It makes it even more difficult to get them to sign. Kaminski and Diaz should have offers on the table now - not leaving it until their one year options are activated. 

[chaddyrovers]

after listening to Mowbray talk about the contract offers and the fact is down to money leads me to ask what are their agents demands wage wise from us, Do they have other clubs line up from them and how far are Rovers improve contract offers away from what their agents demands. 

Yes Rovers have a wage structure in place and we should stick to it of course. 

Are Nyambe, Lenihan and Rothwell going to get better offers from other clubs given the financial reset at most championship clubs and clubs looking to reduce their wage bill post covid-19 now. I think its doubtful tbh 

 

[roversfan99]

Easy to assume that it is greed and that the wage structure is fair and reasonable.

Mowbray had to stop himself from publically questioning the owners ambition which hints at a bit of frustration as to the level to which we can go to to keep big assets.

[1864roverite]

11 hours ago, JacknOry said:

Exactly, we should never be in a position where players can run down their contracts and walk for free. As you say, they should resolve the situation before they get into their final year. Its sign or get sold. Now, players not only have the potential improved wages to look forward to, but a larger signing on fee too. It makes it even more difficult to get them to sign. Kaminski and Diaz should have offers on the table now - not leaving it until their one year options are activated. 

I can tell you offers for DL and JR were made before the end of last season, RN was at the end of the season. Its not from the word of anyone inside the club it is from a very close and reliable source from the sports legal world!

[Bigdoggsteel]

Going off what I have tread though, it seems like a lot of clubs are tightening their belts, so the lads might be surprised. Then again, the way Lenihan , in particular , is playing he could probably get a move to a newly relegated club, at least 

[tomphil]

'Can' go to or will go to ?

I'd never say bust the bank for them but most have either come through the ranks or from a lower league so their wages will reflect that.  Now they are regular established Championship players and they'll want wages to reflect that which is fair enough.

This is before greedy agents and silly ideas of being entitled comes into the thinking of course.

Main problem is the management and suits have ignored these issues for too long and wasted money on loaning in the Trybulls etc and changing the style of play instead. 'If' this was the journey to a young vibrant hungry side they are trying to pretend say it was now then off the pitch they've royally screwed up.

Too many at once in the same boat means too much needs committing and that is probably scaring off the bean counters. Committing a few million to get them signed up though is chicken feed to these lot and for once it actually investment not waste.

Edited December 10, 2021 by tomphil

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

Easy to assume that it is greed and that the wage structure is fair and reasonable.

Mowbray had to stop himself from publically questioning the owners ambition which hints at a bit of frustration as to the level to which we can go to to keep big assets.

easy to criticise the club for not offering more wages and not having proper wage structure. How do you know that its not fair and reasonable? should we be over paying players given the wage bill compare to our turnover is far too high? 

[roversfan99]

15 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

easy to criticise the club for not offering more wages and not having proper wage structure. How do you know that its not fair and reasonable? should we be over paying players given the wage bill compare to our turnover is far too high? 

Conversely, how do you know that the issue is unrealistic expectations on behalf of the players? And its not just one player, its a number of players. What is the common denominator, its the club and the money available from the owners.

Mowbray had to stop himself from questioning the owners ambition because of the limitations to the wage budget available.

I have never once suggested that we should over pay for players, its just a straw man argument that you regularly peddle.

The last sentence is a false economy. A bit more flexibility on the wage front allows us to tie down assets, which then sets itself up for future income well beyond that expenditure in the form of transfer income.

[tomphil]

Is this the Brentford model bringing through players then letting them go for token sums or compen just to get a bit back to re-invest in loan and freebies ? 

We'll not progress any further with that approach unless in the very unlikely scenario they pull some real rabbits out the hat. More chance of ending up with championship plodders on 10k pwk again.

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

Conversely, how do you know that the issue is unrealistic expectations on behalf of the players? And its not just one player, its a number of players. What is the common denominator, its the club and the money available from the owners.

Its 3 players actually as talks with Kaminski will take place next week I read today on Lancs Live. Mowbray and Waggott has said its down to money and whats their agents want and demanding for the players in the contract talks

You just keep expecting the owners to keep throwing money at the club instead of the club being run financially properly and being less reliant on them. 

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

I have never once suggested that we should over pay for players, its just a straw man argument that you regularly peddle.

well you have actually by suggesting the club increase the wage budget to pay the players what they want. 

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

The last sentence is a false economy. A bit more flexibility on the wage front allows us to tie down assets, which then sets itself up for future income well beyond that expenditure in the form of transfer income.

The club needs to stay in line with budgets set. These players have been offered improve contracts and given the financial reset within the championship are they going to get better contracts? Clubs like Huddersfield and Cardiff will be reducing their budget for next season if they don't get promote