Rovers v Rotherham Utd. (h) Wed. 16th Dec. 7.45pm

[WacoRover]

Just now, WacoRover said:

I agree on the point totals, re: Next 5 matches. If we don’t start picking up some big points, we might as well forget about playoff or promotion, and get excited about finish in the top third, as opposed to mid table.

Dack returning soon will be a welcome addition, but honestly, the defending is where we are lacking. We will just be losing to teams above us in the table, 2-3, instead of 1-2 as we now do. 

 

[Sparks Rover]

21 minutes ago, Madon said:

You need your own 'Mercers tips' thread!

Mercerbet has a ring to it.  

[Bigdoggsteel]

It really doesn't matter as long as we end up in the play off places. Were Swansea even in the top six last season before the last day? Villa the year before? 

Judge the team at the end of the season. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 hour ago, Madon said:

You need your own 'Mercers tips' thread!

I promise not to back any of them, I'm the kiss of death with horses.  We used to do a lot of work at a factory in the middle of one of the big horse training areas. Some of my workmates came back with great tips. Winners at really good odds. One was called " More Style ", it just kept winning. After seeing my workmates picking up their winnings from about 4 consecutive wins I backed it. It was nowhere. " More Style " = Less Money. 

[superniko]

Worth noting these guys have big injury troubles currently, so we can't go using that as our excuse.

Should be a comfortable win, anything other than 3 points will be a huge disappointment. We need to be picking up 11 points from 15 available before the FA Cup tie, to be in a position to break the top 6 in 2021.

I'd give Johnson a rest for Davenport (rather Johnson is fresh for the Stoke match), and I would start Dolan and Elliott out wide together. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by superniko

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

It really doesn't matter as long as we end up in the play off places. Were Swansea even in the top six last season before the last day? Villa the year before? 

Judge the team at the end of the season. 

Its totally unreasonable to expect people to withhold judgement until the end of the season though. This is Mowbray's fourth full season, we are not at a point when we cannot flag up if we feel like we are stagnating, we arent improving, that we maybe could consider a change. "Give him until the end of the season" is such a rigid barometer, what if he was to lose the next 6, the next 10 for example? Surely that rule even to the most patient of supporters has a breaking point. 

This idea that we will put a run together to not only accumulate points at a rate that gets us into the top 6 but also enough to overcome not only a points deficit but also numerous teams in a similar situation is just incredibly fanciful based on anything seen to date.

Villa are a flawed example to use in that they required not only the huge signing of Tyrone Mings in January to help them but crucially, they when stagnating changed manager from Steve Bruce to Dean Smith in October who was the catalyst in their surge up the table.

[booth]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

It really doesn't matter as long as we end up in the play off places. Were Swansea even in the top six last season before the last day? Villa the year before? 

Judge the team at the end of the season. 

Ad infinitum.

[JHRover]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

 

Judge the team at the end of the season. 

It doesn't really work like that though. If it did then the only time managers would ever get sacked would be between May and August. 

Sometimes you have to see the bigger picture. At most clubs you have owners or a board constantly reviewing performances and results and forming educated views. Here we are in a vacuum where the owners haven't any interest and the board seem to think Tony Mowbray is the greatest manager in our history to the extent that they commission huge flags of him. Can't imagine he's under any level of scrutiny from anyone other than a portion of the fanbase.

[Ewood Ace]

1 hour ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

It really doesn't matter as long as we end up in the play off places. Were Swansea even in the top six last season before the last day? Villa the year before? 

Judge the team at the end of the season. 

And what did Villa do when they were in mid table that season they sacked their manager. 

[Mashed Potatoes]

2 hours ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

I promise not to back any of them, I'm the kiss of death with horses.  We used to do a lot of work at a factory in the middle of one of the big horse training areas. Some of my workmates came back with great tips. Winners at really good odds. One was called " More Style ", it just kept winning. After seeing my workmates picking up their winnings from about 4 consecutive wins I backed it. It was nowhere. " More Style " = Less Money. 

That horse was Moorestyle who was one of the outstanding sprinters of the last century. He was owned by the Moorestyle furniture company and had been bought cheap to publicise the business of the owners. He was so successful in the early 1980s that there were rumours at the time that the horse had become more valuable than the business that owned him.

[islander200]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

Its totally unreasonable to expect people to withhold judgement until the end of the season though. This is Mowbray's fourth full season, we are not at a point when we cannot flag up if we feel like we are stagnating, we arent improving, that we maybe could consider a change. "Give him until the end of the season" is such a rigid barometer, what if he was to lose the next 6, the next 10 for example? Surely that rule even to the most patient of supporters has a breaking point. 

This idea that we will put a run together to not only accumulate points at a rate that gets us into the top 6 but also enough to overcome not only a points deficit but also numerous teams in a similar situation is just incredibly fanciful based on anything seen to date.

Villa are a flawed example to use in that they required not only the huge signing of Tyrone Mings in January to help them but crucially, they when stagnating changed manager from Steve Bruce to Dean Smith in October who was the catalyst in their surge up the table.

We are 6 points off for Christ sake.

I'm no big Mowbray lover and think we could do a lot better than him but some are acting like the season is over.Yes sitting 12th currently but one good week in this division abd the table looks a lot better.

6 points from the next two and we are guaranteed to move up at least one position.Id give him the next 5 games and see where we are at then.If still being inconsistent with results and it looks like we are set for another mid table finish then I'd be hoping the owners would look to change it.

Agreed results need to be a lot better but we are competing ok  and look better than previous seasons.

 

 

 

 

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

25 minutes ago, Mashed Potatoes said:

That horse was Moorestyle who was one of the outstanding sprinters of the last century. He was owned by the Moorestyle furniture company and had been bought cheap to publicise the business of the owners. He was so successful in the early 1980s that there were rumours at the time that the horse had become more valuable than the business that owned him.

I think that might be the one. In one of it's early races it won at about 30 to 1 I think. Some of the blokes I worked with backed it. Next time it won again but the odds were roughly half of that. It won again a couple of times and by then everybody in the workshop but me had backed it.

Next time out I backed it and it wasn't placed ! I thought it was in the early 1990,s but I could be wrong there.

Mrs Shoelaces has all the luck with horses and she knows absolutely nothing about them. We were out in Spain at the time of the Grand National about 8 years ago and her son had called to ask if she wanted him to back a horse for her. Unusually it was a cloudy day in Spain and she was looking out of the window. As I was reading out the runners I came to either " Cloudy Day " or Cloudy Sky ", I can't recall which one now. 

Right away she said " Yes that one will do, put me a fiver to win on " Cloudy Day ". It only won at good odds.

Edit - I just checked - it was called " Many Clouds " and it won at 25 to 1.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

Its totally unreasonable to expect people to withhold judgement until the end of the season though. This is Mowbray's fourth full season, we are not at a point when we cannot flag up if we feel like we are stagnating, we arent improving, that we maybe could consider a change. "Give him until the end of the season" is such a rigid barometer, what if he was to lose the next 6, the next 10 for example? Surely that rule even to the most patient of supporters has a breaking point. 

This idea that we will put a run together to not only accumulate points at a rate that gets us into the top 6 but also enough to overcome not only a points deficit but also numerous teams in a similar situation is just incredibly fanciful based on anything seen to date.

Villa are a flawed example to use in that they required not only the huge signing of Tyrone Mings in January to help them but crucially, they when stagnating changed manager from Steve Bruce to Dean Smith in October who was the catalyst in their surge up the table.

There are many examples of teams who got in near the end of the season. The negativity is exhausting. You would think we are in the releagtion zone. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, JHRover said:

It doesn't really work like that though. If it did then the only time managers would ever get sacked would be between May and August. 

Sometimes you have to see the bigger picture. At most clubs you have owners or a board constantly reviewing performances and results and forming educated views. Here we are in a vacuum where the owners haven't any interest and the board seem to think Tony Mowbray is the greatest manager in our history to the extent that they commission huge flags of him. Can't imagine he's under any level of scrutiny from anyone other than a portion of the fanbase.

No,managers get sacked when they are doing badly, we aren't doing badly. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, Ewood Ace said:

And what did Villa do when they were in mid table that season they sacked their manager. 

Many examples of teams who got in near the end of the season 

[G Somerset Rover]

8 hours ago, Mercer said:

The type of fixture we love and excel in.

This is as big a home banker as you could possibly get.

Just a question of how many goals we run in - a minimum of 3 and I'd go as high as 6.

Bang on Rovers and fill yer boots for Christmas.

And to think some still don’t think you’re on the wind up! You were suicidal after the Norwich game with Mowbray being the worst manager in the history of the game.

6? LOL.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Gavlar Somerset Rover!

[roversfan99]

15 minutes ago, islander200 said:

We are 6 points off for Christ sake.

I'm no big Mowbray lover and think we could do a lot better than him but some are acting like the season is over.Yes sitting 12th currently but one good week in this division abd the table looks a lot better.

6 points from the next two and we are guaranteed to move up at least one position.Id give him the next 5 games and see where we are at then.If still being inconsistent with results and it looks like we are set for another mid table finish then I'd be hoping the owners would look to change it.

Agreed results need to be a lot better but we are competing ok  and look better than previous seasons.

 

 

 

 

 

To be fair, its been the case for a while now in which we have been x points, a run of wins, a fully fit squad, a bit of luck, there is always something between us and the top 6 and that something never goes away.

The last sentence is a bit confusing. First you acknowledge a discrepancy in the results which is the basis of the reasoning behind those that suggest a change in manager. You then contradict yourself by claiming that we look better than previous seasons when those aforementioned results suggest otherwise. Merely "competing ok" is not justification for a manager to keep his job indefinitely.

3 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

There are many examples of teams who got in near the end of the season. The negativity is exhausting. You would think we are in the releagtion zone. 

If Mowbray was to be sacked, it would quite obviously not be a cut and dry case like with Kean/Coyle etc where he is miles out of his depth, hence why people are so split on the issue. It would be because it was deemed that we are not (or at least unlikely to) take that next step and become serious top 6 contenders as we have strived to be since the start of last season. Last season, when we made our signings, the rhetoric was a top 6 challenge, we never came close, the players publically said that they fell short, but a line was drawn under the season. Maybe it was always a bit of a stretch. This season however, we are equally far away, our record is basically identical to last season. (and the year before) How long does this go on before those forlorn hopes of a late surge up the table to get into the top 6 having never done so before become unrealistic? If he was to be sacked, he could be proud of the job that he had done even in spite of being unable to take us on that next step.

Your last sentence is a desperate, strawman argument. Is your stance on the matter as long as we arent in the bottom 3, he can keep his job? Is that the only time any manager should be sacked?

[RevidgeBlue]

19 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

No,managers get sacked when they are doing badly, we aren't doing badly. 

We're not doing very well either. Lost a relatively high proportion of our games, and as many as we've won.

I think most people would agree we have a better squad then in the last two seasons yet results remain disappointingly poor. It takes some doing to underperform no matter what calibre of player you have out there.

The one common denominator is the manager who doesn't seem to have any sort of target other than being able to challenge for the play offs (whatever that means) at some unspecified point in the future. I think that's the root of the problem, the players are under no real pressure to perform, a couple of bad results and it's just a shrug of the shoulders and "We go again Wednesday" etc.

"This time next year Rodney........"

[islander200]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

To be fair, its been the case for a while now in which we have been x points, a run of wins, a fully fit squad, a bit of luck, there is always something between us and the top 6 and that something never goes away.

The last sentence is a bit confusing. First you acknowledge a discrepancy in the results which is the basis of the reasoning behind those that suggest a change in manager. You then contradict yourself by claiming that we look better than previous seasons when those aforementioned results suggest otherwise. Merely "competing ok" is not justification for a manager to keep his job indefinitely.

If Mowbray was to be sacked, it would quite obviously not be a cut and dry case like with Kean/Coyle etc where he is miles out of his depth, hence why people are so split on the issue. It would be because it was deemed that we are not (or at least unlikely to) take that next step and become serious top 6 contenders as we have strived to be since the start of last season. Last season, when we made our signings, the rhetoric was a top 6 challenge, we never came close, the players publically said that they fell short, but a line was drawn under the season. Maybe it was always a bit of a stretch. This season however, we are equally far away, our record is basically identical to last season. (and the year before) How long does this go on before those forlorn hopes of a late surge up the table to get into the top 6 having never done so before become unrealistic? If he was to be sacked, he could be proud of the job that he had done even in spite of being unable to take us on that next step.

Your last sentence is a desperate, strawman argument. Is your stance on the matter as long as we arent in the bottom 3, he can keep his job? Is that the only time any manager should be sacked?

Im not contradicting myself, at the end of the day it's a results buisness.Im of the opinion that performances on a whole have been better than previous seasons.

I'm also practical enough to appreciate we brought in a few players in the summer and have changed the style of play these things take time to develop and I'm confident we will soon start getting results.

No offence but you were moaning all summer that you didn't see enough goals In the squad and here we are amongst the top goalscorers in the division.

Its 6 points.6 points is nothing in this division.Wins will come against teams higher up I'm confident of that.I fancy us to beat Stoke.A point away at Brentford isn't a bad result.The point at Luton also not a terrible result and we beat Millwall who some on here were tipping to be in the mix for top 6.

The next 5 games our all winnable I expect any the very least 11 points.

 

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

To be fair, its been the case for a while now in which we have been x points, a run of wins, a fully fit squad, a bit of luck, there is always something between us and the top 6 and that something never goes away.

The last sentence is a bit confusing. First you acknowledge a discrepancy in the results which is the basis of the reasoning behind those that suggest a change in manager. You then contradict yourself by claiming that we look better than previous seasons when those aforementioned results suggest otherwise. Merely "competing ok" is not justification for a manager to keep his job indefinitely.

If Mowbray was to be sacked, it would quite obviously not be a cut and dry case like with Kean/Coyle etc where he is miles out of his depth, hence why people are so split on the issue. It would be because it was deemed that we are not (or at least unlikely to) take that next step and become serious top 6 contenders as we have strived to be since the start of last season. Last season, when we made our signings, the rhetoric was a top 6 challenge, we never came close, the players publically said that they fell short, but a line was drawn under the season. Maybe it was always a bit of a stretch. This season however, we are equally far away, our record is basically identical to last season. (and the year before) How long does this go on before those forlorn hopes of a late surge up the table to get into the top 6 having never done so before become unrealistic? If he was to be sacked, he could be proud of the job that he had done even in spite of being unable to take us on that next step.

Your last sentence is a desperate, strawman argument. Is your stance on the matter as long as we arent in the bottom 3, he can keep his job? Is that the only time any manager should be sacked?

Desperate, strawman argument lol. That comment was smelly hyperbole. See I can put random words together too. You would think we were in the bottom 3 the people are going on, not a couple of results going our way from being in the play offs. 

My point is you can't say he has the best squad, so much time etc and then also say sack him during the season. This is the season we have the best squad. He has earned the right to see it out with them. For god sake, we haven't even had our full squad this season. 

Simple question for you-who would you go for and why? 

[Bigdoggsteel]

35 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

We're not doing very well either. Lost a relatively high proportion of our games, and as many as we've won.

I think most people would agree we have a better squad then in the last two seasons yet results remain disappointingly poor. It takes some doing to underperform no matter what calibre of player you have out there.

The one common denominator is the manager who doesn't seem to have any sort of target other than being able to challenge for the play offs (whatever that means) at some unspecified point in the future. I think that's the root of the problem, the players are under no real pressure to perform, a couple of bad results and it's just a shrug of the shoulders and "We go again Wednesday" etc.

"This time next year Rodney........"

We haven't had our full squad, so just imagine how good we will be when Dack and Travis come back it. Or do you not think they will make a difference? We arent far off it. 2 results go our way earlier on and we are in the play off places. It's very small margins. Like ,hard to believe, but the other teams want to win too. So many and there is very little between them. 

That's what they say publicly, but I'm sure these results hurt them. It's individual mistakes that are killing us. We are functioning pretty well by and large. The likes of Johnson and Holtby know they need to probably do it this season. Are we lacking leaders? Maybe, but I think this group, manager included deserve the season to give it a go. If we don't make the play offs then, that's it. I honestly can't see Mowbray being here next season if we don't make the play offs this year. 

 

 

[roversfan99]

7 minutes ago, islander200 said:

Im not contradicting myself, at the end of the day it's a results buisness.Im of the opinion that performances on a whole have been better than previous seasons.

I'm also practical enough to appreciate we brought in a few players in the summer and have changed the style of play these things take time to develop and I'm confident we will soon start getting results.

No offence but you were moaning all summer that you didn't see enough goals In the squad and here we are amongst the top goalscorers in the division.

Its 6 points.6 points is nothing in this division.Wins will come against teams higher up I'm confident of that.I fancy us to beat Stoke.A point away at Brentford isn't a bad result.The point at Luton also not a terrible result and we beat Millwall who some on here were tipping to be in the mix for top 6.

The next 5 games our all winnable I expect any the very least 11 points.

 

 

I just cant escape this constant and potentially never ending cycle of a few more games, one more season, we continuously wait for something to fall into place whilst consistently lounging in mid table and never making even a temporary push into the top 6. 

The performances are to me immaterial, ideally we would play beautiful football but its not important compared to results. The players are better yet the results are the same, maybe the style is only further highlighting and exposing our weaknesses?

1 minute ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Desperate, strawman argument lol. That comment was smelly hyperbole. See I can put random words together too. You would think we were in the bottom 3 the people are going on, not a couple of results going our way from being in the play offs. 

My point is you can't say he has the best squad, so much time etc and then also say sack him during the season. This is the season we have the best squad. He has earned the right to see it out with them. For god sake, we haven't even had our full squad this season. 

Simple question for you-who would you go for and why? 

My point is more that he has a better squad than he has done prior in regards to a few signings being notable upgrades yet he is still picking up points at an identical rate. Its not a flippant, sudden call after a couple of losses, it is based on the whole season, and a continuous inability to really put ourselves into a genuine top 6 position. I would argue that using flawed examples of teams that have gone on late surges, referring to those who have questioned the managers future as fickle based on a couple of results and indeed setting stupidly low benchmarks of not being in the bottom 3 as more illogical and indeed hopeful in the face of evidence rather than making a judgement at the here and now.

No one has said that we are in the bottom 3, if we was, like I said the calls for Mowbray's head would be unanimous, and its a desperate argument to throw that line in as if it in anyway dismisses the argument some have that Mowbray has taken us as far as he can go.

I dont believe in giving specific time frames, managers can be judged mid season as well as at the end of a season. 

The full squad argument again is not one I can get on board with, simply because EVERY team is suffering from injuries more than ever this season, and I would be amazed if we go into ANY game this season with a fully fit squad, it is an unreasonable expectation and waiting for such an eventuality is unrealistic. When Dack and Travis return, a couple of others will likely be injured, it is just par for the course this season. We played Bristol City last week and lost, they were missing 8 players basically all of whom were first team guaranteed starters. We are about to play 2 teams this month who have just lost their main attacking players. It is a squad game more than ever this year and it is our squad that many have been bigging up this season, the various options and of course the time and resources Mowbray has had to build a whole squad of players of his choosing.

Regarding who I would replace Mowbray with, I dont know. I am of the opinion that the manager is critical and certainly wouldnt cut corners financially, so if it meant taking that money from future transfer budgets then so be it. Off the top of my head, someone like Eddie Howe would be a signal of intent but as I said, I cant profess to make a judgement in the same way that I feel 100% in a position to make a judgement on the future of the current manager.

[islander200]

6 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I just cant escape this constant and potentially never ending cycle of a few more games, one more season, we continuously wait for something to fall into place whilst consistently lounging in mid table and never making even a temporary push into the top 6. 

The performances are to me immaterial, ideally we would play beautiful football but its not important compared to results. The players are better yet the results are the same, maybe the style is only further highlighting and exposing our weaknesses?

My point is more that he has a better squad than he has done prior in regards to a few signings being notable upgrades yet he is still picking up points at an identical rate. Its not a flippant, sudden call after a couple of losses, it is based on the whole season, and a continuous inability to really put ourselves into a genuine top 6 position. I would argue that using flawed examples of teams that have gone on late surges, referring to those who have questioned the managers future as fickle based on a couple of results and indeed setting stupidly low benchmarks of not being in the bottom 3 as more illogical and indeed hopeful in the face of evidence rather than making a judgement at the here and now.

No one has said that we are in the bottom 3, if we was, like I said the calls for Mowbray's head would be unanimous, and its a desperate argument to throw that line in as if it in anyway dismisses the argument some have that Mowbray has taken us as far as he can go.

I dont believe in giving specific time frames, managers can be judged mid season as well as at the end of a season. 

The full squad argument again is not one I can get on board with, simply because EVERY team is suffering from injuries more than ever this season, and I would be amazed if we go into ANY game this season with a fully fit squad, it is an unreasonable expectation and waiting for such an eventuality is unrealistic. When Dack and Travis return, a couple of others will likely be injured, it is just par for the course this season. We played Bristol City last week and lost, they were missing 8 players basically all of whom were first team guaranteed starters. We are about to play 2 teams this month who have just lost their main attacking players. It is a squad game more than ever this year and it is our squad that many have been bigging up this season, the various options and of course the time and resources Mowbray has had to build a whole squad of players of his choosing.

Regarding who I would replace Mowbray with, I dont know. I am of the opinion that the manager is critical and certainly wouldnt cut corners financially, so if it meant taking that money from future transfer budgets then so be it. Off the top of my head, someone like Eddie Howe would be a signal of intent but as I said, I cant profess to make a judgement in the same way that I feel 100% in a position to make a judgement on the future of the current manager.

That's fair enough that performances are immaterial to you but not everyone is of the same opinion.

Im of the thinking we haven't looked anywhere near as good as we do this season throughout Mowbray's tenure.

Im also of the belief you keep putting in good performances then results will come and it will even itself out eventually, we were fortunate to take 6 points from Millwall and Barnsley. We have had 3 very tough away games and it is very disappointing that we didn't pick up more points,but yet I look at the league table after gaining only 1 point from the last 3 matches and after playing 5 of the top 7 away from home  and we are still only 6 points off the top 6.

You rightly go on about the importance and quality of Dack so presumably you think we will improve when he is back in the side? Other teams have injuries too granted  and Im not using injuries as an excuse we are where we are but it's only 6 points off top 6 with a more favourable run of games leading in to January.

If we ain't collecting points in those fixtures then yes I would look to change it.

[K-Hod]

2 hours ago, islander200 said:

We are 6 points off for Christ sake.

I'm no big Mowbray lover and think we could do a lot better than him but some are acting like the season is over.Yes sitting 12th currently but one good week in this division abd the table looks a lot better.

6 points from the next two and we are guaranteed to move up at least one position.Id give him the next 5 games and see where we are at then.If still being inconsistent with results and it looks like we are set for another mid table finish then I'd be hoping the owners would look to change it.

Agreed results need to be a lot better but we are competing ok  and look better than previous seasons.

 

 

 

 

 

We always are though, that’s the problem....

[K-Hod]

I’m yet to be convinced that Dack and Travis is going to see us surge up the table like many people seem to think it will tbh.

I would obviously love for that to happen!

Also, Armstrong stepped up in a really big way in Dack’s absence, but will they both bring the best out of each other if they play in their favoured positions?