Rovers vs Owls Boxing Day 3pm through a Socially Distanced Looking Glass

[Miller11]

For all the mentions they are getting, Armstrong, Nyambe and Elliott are not the problem here!

Gallagher playing wide in the front 3 has never worked, has never looked like working, and I’ll say pretty confidently, will never work.

A defence built around Darragh Lenihan will always be susceptible.

Douglas is worse than Bell by some margin.

Out best defender is expected to be one of our primary attacking threats.

Our movement once we get anywhere near the oppositions box is dire. Every player seems to want to hang round the edge of the box... we often lack a target and ball retention above all else Seems the priority. This improved with Dack and Brereton coming on today.

The snobbery around Wednesdays approach is as annoying as it is baffling. Presumably all those fans prattling on about “anti-football” had every sympathy with Arsene Wenger when he used to cry at us bullying results out of Arsenal under Hughes? No?

I’d be really interested to see our possession stats broken down a bit... how much of that 70 odd percent was in the final third?

That was boring, uninspiring and infuriating. Think Mowbray’s “journey” has stalled. At a functional club with a proper structure and competent owners in place his time would be up.

Edited December 26, 2020 by Miller11

[RevidgeBlue]

3 minutes ago, Stuart said:

BCD football will not even bring any (unlikely) pressure from fans so we will be having this same debate week after week, March after match. Is it any wonder people are losing interest? Where is the imperative due to the size of our debt? The pressure that comes from managers having to get results? The personal pride of a noble manager who walked away from Coventry?

To be fair to the owners they've supported Mowbray admirably since we were relegated.

I think the major urgency comes from the fact that due to the short-sightedness of the manager and Chief executive Nyambe will probably walk for nothing in summer, Elliott won't be here after this year, and there must be a major chance we'll lose the likes of Armstrong, Dack and Travis due to the absence of any progress under Mowbray.

Meaning that this year could represent the best chance of success for a very long time indeed. Or at least it might under a half decent manager.

[Bigdoggsteel]

6 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I wish we had other players whose goal to shot ratio was masked by being the 2nd top scorer in the league.

Missing the issue. He is the focal point, so it's logical he has more goals. He hadn't done it againt top teams and I would say his play when he's at his worst hinders the team and kills momentum 

Even look at today, watch the highlights. He has a decent shot that hits the post, comes back and he gets it again. Now look at where Dack is when Armstrong shoots weakly at the keeper for the he many times in 5-6 games? Clearly Dack was the pass and it's a mild example of when Armstrong has done this. 

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

We clearly need a target man because we are far too predictable. Teams know we won't get it in the box and if we do, we will typically lose the aerial battle.

Armstrong has been very lucky. His goals to shots ratio shows how many chances he needs to score. Ya, he has goals, against teams we hammered mostly and penalties. Not doing enough for me after that. We can do better for a figure like 17 million. Maybe he would be better in a front 2. Doesn't lead the line well enough at all for me. You can talk about his goals all you like, I know what I see. As I mentioned , the vast majority of those goals were penalties and in 3 games where we flat track bullied the opposition. 

Come back to me if Armstrong does it consistently for 1 whole season, at least. 

The 2nd highest scorer in the league with 15 goals and 3 assists from 18 games would like to come back to you. And that's in a team that creates very few clear cut chances. AA isn't the problem.

[Bigdoggsteel]

12 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Some musings in response:

- Very much hope that Elliott isn’t the latest player to have the excitement coached out of him

- Mowbray is more likely to stick with Douglas than send him back - if not belligerence then just ignorancd

- Holtby another player who is looking less happy the longer he plays for Mowbray

- Mowbray has a Plan A and nothing else. It’s a template of “hardworking”, “honest” players who do as they are told.

- Players going forward as a threat are at a premium. If your first and last name begins with ‘A’ then you get some freedom. If not the you stick in your round hole - even if you are a square peg.

- Armstrong has become a one trick pony. Head down with the ball and shoot, regardless of whether you are accurate, whether there is a real opportunity or whether there is a team mate in a better position. His shot-to-goal ratio is masked by his goals scored.

- Downing on the left is the wrong answer to the ongoing problem. He can no longer beat a man and fire a cross in. Which means if he can’t quickly see a pass he has to turn and cut inside but is then playing a backward pass.

Not a lot has changed in all the time we have been in this division under Mowbray. He has had a longer run in this division than any other manager (Wycombe and Rotherham managers both promoted from league one last season) and he will be here until he walks.

BCD football will not even bring any (unlikely) pressure from fans so we will be having this same debate week after week, March after match. Is it any wonder people are losing interest? Where is the imperative due to the size of our debt? The pressure that comes from managers having to get results? The personal pride of a noble manager who walked away from Coventry?

Some good points. I don't think Liverpool will allow the spark to be vaihed out if Elliott. They would haul him first. Hopefully not. 

 

[roversfan99]

3 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

We clearly need a target man because we are far too predictable. Teams know we won't get it in the box and if we do, we will typically lose the aerial battle.

Armstrong has been very lucky. His goals to shots ratio shows how many chances he needs to score. Ya, he has goals, against teams we hammered mostly and penalties. Not doing enough for me after that. We can do better for a figure like 17 million. Maybe he would be better in a front 2. Doesn't lead the line well enough at all for me. You can talk about his goals all you like, I know what I see. As I mentioned , the vast majority of those goals were penalties and in 3 games where we flat track bullied the opposition. 

Come back to me if Armstrong does it consistently for 1 whole season, at least. 

I cant get my head round a striker scoring 27 goals in 1 year being described as "very lucky." 3 of his 15 this season were penalties. He has consistently scored goals (I think more than any other Championship player in 2020) and its a massive disservice to imply that he needs changing/selling, or just not appreciating how good it is to have a striker to be scoring us so many goals. Id be absolutely amazed even if we got 17m which for numerous reasons (including the sell on) we wouldnt receive all of to reinvest that we could attract a striker to improve upon the goal tally that Armstrong is providing us.

[RevidgeBlue]

5 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

We clearly need a target man because we are far too predictable. Teams know we won't get it in the box and if we do, we will typically lose the aerial battle.

Armstrong has been very lucky. His goals to shots ratio shows how many chances he needs to score. Ya, he has goals, against teams we hammered mostly and penalties. Not doing enough for me after that. We can do better for a figure like 17 million. Maybe he would be better in a front 2. Doesn't lead the line well enough at all for me. You can talk about his goals all you like, I know what I see. As I mentioned , the vast majority of those goals were penalties and in 3 games where we flat track bullied the opposition. 

Come back to me if Armstrong does it consistently for 1 whole season, at least. 

We definitely don't need a target man.

Name a successful side that plays like that these days.

[Bigdoggsteel]

3 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

For all the mentions they are getting, Armstrong, Nyambe and Elliott are not the problem here!

Gallagher playing wide in the front 3 has never worked, has never looked like working, and I’ll say pretty confidently, will never work.

A defence built around Darragh Lenihan will always be susceptible.

Douglas is worse than Bell by some margin.

Out best defender is expected to be one of our primary attacking threats.

The snobbery around Wednesdays approach is as annoying as it is baffling. Presumably all those fans prattling on about “anti-football” had every sympathy with Arsene Wenger when he used to cry at us bullying results out of Arsenal under Hughes? No?

I’d be really interested to see our possession stats broken down a bit... how much of that 70 odd percent was in the final third?

That was boring, uninspiring and infuriating. Think Mowbray’s “journey” has stalled. At a functional club with a proper structure and competent owners in place his time would be up.

I don't see much snobbery here really. Most admit it's about results. I'm sure Mowbray looks down his nose at it, down his nose and up the table. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

Just now, RevidgeBlue said:

We definitely don't need a target man.

Name a successful side that plays like that these days.

I'm not talking an absolute oaf, just someone who can control the ball, bring others into play and win the odd header. 

[Stuart]

5 minutes ago, RevidgeBlue said:

To be fair to the owners they've supported Mowbray admirably since we were relegated.

I think the major urgency comes from the fact that due to the short-sightedness of the manager and Chief executive Nyambe will probably walk for nothing in summer, Elliott won't be here after this year, and there must be a major chance we'll lose the likes of Armstrong, Dack and Travis due to the absence of any progress under Mowbray.

Meaning that this year could represent the best chance of success for a very long time indeed. Or at least it might under a half decent manager.

Yep

[Bigdoggsteel]

4 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

The 2nd highest scorer in the league with 15 goals and 3 assists from 18 games would like to come back to you. And that's in a team that creates very few clear cut chances. AA isn't the problem.

We were creating plenty when he scored most his goals. Teams have figured us out since. 

Edited December 26, 2020 by Bigdoggsteel

[Ewood Ace]

Another poor and disjointed performance, which is now becoming the normal, sides have worked out how to play against us and we don't seem to have an answer aside from individual brilliance of how to break sides down.

I thought that we would win today before kick off but from the first few seconds I thought different as soon as I saw we started with Armstrong and Gallagher wide and Elliott up front. A classic Mowbray cock up by trying to be to clever, Armstrong has scored a shed load of goals this calendar year playing as a striker, Elliott has scored and made goals playing from the right and Gallagher is a striker and never will be a wide player. It's no coincidence that since Gallagher has come into the starting 11 we have won 1 game and the winning goal in that game came after he went off, even today the equaliser came when he was of the pitch. I'd have no problem with Gallagher starting up front but starting him wide completely unbalances the team and has done for the last 18 months that Mowbray can't see it or refuses to see it just about sums him up.

The defence was poor today all 4 of them. Nyambe struggled up against Odubajo and for perhaps the first time this season even came up second best. Lenihan was about the pick of the defenders but that doesn't say a lot he just hasn't looked settled all season. Ayala and Douglas for me are both equally culpable for the goal, I have no idea what Douglas was doing and Ayala just needs to attack the ball even if it means cleaning his own man out. Surely Douglas has to be dropped next game, he's Bell but with no pace.

In midfield I completely forgot that Johnson was on the pitch until he got taken off, in games likes this I'd much rather see us go with an extra attacking option over a holding midfielder. Holtby was crap again we'd just as well keep him on the bench to bring on should the opposition have a man sent off. He just looks like he is going though the motions out there no fight and desire shown from him. Lovely goal from Rothwell who was easily our best player today, the only starting midfielder with any life in him. A big mistake not to start Downing today given how we all knew the game was going to play out, he showed his value in subs appearance in other similar games this season and did so again today.

On the bright side we have now beat a team above us because after todays results the might of Barnsley are now above us. Although it doesn't say a lot for Tony's slow build approach as Barnsley's manager has taken them from a side that stayed up due to Wigan's points deduction to a mid table side in just a few months, Mowbray has had  nearly 4 years. Surely even he must know deep down that its time to go.

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

I'm not talking an absolute oaf, just someone who can control the ball, bring others into play and win the odd header. 

LOL. He sounds amazing. Can he get 15 goals in 18 games. What's Chris Brown up to?

[Miller11]

1 minute ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I don't see much snobbery here really. Most admit it's about results. I'm sure Mowbray looks down his nose at it, down his nose and up the table. 

Maybe not so much on here, but Twitter is full of it. Local journos seem to like that particular narrative.

[roversfan99]

3 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Missing the issue. He is the focal point, so it's logical he has more goals. He hadn't done it againt top teams and I would say his play when he's at his worst hinders the team and kills momentum 

Even look at today, watch the highlights. He has a decent shot that hits the post, comes back and he gets it again. Now look at where Dack is when Armstrong shoots weakly at the keeper for the he many times in 5-6 games? Clearly Dack was the pass and it's a mild example of when Armstrong has done this. 

I dont need to watch the highlights, I watched the full game and I havent doubted that in recent weeks, perhaps due to desperation/frustration that he has made incorrect decisions more often than usual. His goal tally however shows that more often than not over the course of the last year that he HAS chosen the right option. The high quantity of shots is as far as im concerned something I am prepared to accept with a striker when he is scoring the number of goals that Armstrong has. He is a massive part of our attacking armoury and to take him out of our team would massively reduce our goal threat. He played the Swansea game where he couldnt run and then missed the following game v Boro and we failed to score in both games, he came back v QPR and got the 2 goals that got us to win. Was I surprised? No.

[roversfan99]

4 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

Maybe not so much on here, but Twitter is full of it. Local journos seem to like that particular narrative.

I find as well that a lot of the snobbery is indirect in criticising the way that our opposition play. Stoke received plenty of criticism regarding how they played but they controlled the game in spite of having little possession and we failed to carve out any chances of note. Sheffield Wednesday have again received plenty of criticism but for me its based on an assumption that possession automatically means entertainment.

[Bigdoggsteel]

2 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I cant get my head round a striker scoring 27 goals in 1 year being described as "very lucky." 3 of his 15 this season were penalties. He has consistently scored goals (I think more than any other Championship player in 2020) and its a massive disservice to imply that he needs changing/selling, or just not appreciating how good it is to have a striker to be scoring us so many goals. Id be absolutely amazed even if we got 17m which for numerous reasons (including the sell on) we wouldnt receive all of to reinvest that we could attract a striker to improve upon the goal tally that Armstrong is providing us.

I said I would take 17 million. I didn't say he's the problem. Teams have figured us out. He's not doing enough for me in the last 5-6 games..some of which he actively hindered the team with his greediness. 

So ok 3 of 15 penalties, then 6 against Wycombe, Derby and Coventry. So that's 9 out of 15. Not doing it enough when it really matters. Well I would also add ,forget about the end of last season, pressure was off then. That seems to suit him I suppose. 

I just don't think he is bullet proof in centre forward and that we can't even raise the suggestion that he shouldn't start there. He's struggles to get the better of the centre halves when they sit deep. Early on clubs foolishly played a high line against him. Nobody is doing that anymore and it's killing him. 

Of course, we dont know how 17 million would filter back, but don't tell me a manager couldn't get a better championship striker for that much. All hypothetical of course. 

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

Not doing it enough when it really matters.

He's doing more than anybody else. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

9 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

LOL. He sounds amazing. Can he get 15 goals in 18 games. What's Chris Brown up to?

If your centre forward brings others into play, the burden isn't on him to score all the goals. 

Do you really think Chris Brown could hold the ball up well, bring others into play and win headers? Then maybe your not the man to be discussing this with! 

[RevidgeBlue]

8 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

I  thought that we would win today before kick off but from the first few seconds I thought different as soon as I saw we started with Armstrong and Gallagher wide and Elliott up front. A classic Mowbray cock up by trying to be to clever, Armstrong has scored a shed load of goals this calendar year playing as a striker, Elliott has scored and made goals playing from the right and Gallagher is a striker and never will be a wide player. It's no coincidence that since Gallagher has come into the starting 11 we have won 1 game and the winning goal in that game came after he went off, even today the equaliser came when he was of the pitch. 

This.

It isn't rocket science and football is quite a simple game when you get down to it. You have to play players in their right positions and work harder than the opposition at making yourselves space and denying them space.

The only thing I slightly differ on is I don't think Gallagher would be particularly effective up front either. Shouldn't be starting anywhere on the pitch.

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

14 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

Gallagher playing wide in the front 3 has never worked, has never looked like working, and I’ll say pretty confidently, will never work.

We are effectively playing with 10

14 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

Our movement once we get anywhere near the oppositions box is dire. Every player seems to want to hang round the edge of the box

And this is the bit people fail to see. There's never anyone in the box besides AA. It's always been that way under Mowbray. When we played Graham up front he'd often be out wide knocking down the diagonal leaving only Dack in the middle. 

[Bigdoggsteel]

2 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

He's doing more than anybody else. 

In your opinion. Any good team is about more than who scores the goals and at this point he ain't even scoring them. He has been poor since his spectacular self indulgence against Bristol. I just wonder did that impact team morale. 

Anyways, that's it on Armstrong. I've said my piece. 

[roversfan99]

3 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I said I would take 17 million. I didn't say he's the problem. Teams have figured us out. He's not doing enough for me in the last 5-6 games..some of which he actively hindered the team with his greediness. 

So ok 3 of 15 penalties, then 6 against Wycombe, Derby and Coventry. So that's 9 out of 15. Not doing it enough when it really matters. Well I would also add ,forget about the end of last season, pressure was off then. That seems to suit him I suppose. 

I just don't think he is bullet proof in centre forward and that we can't even raise the suggestion that he shouldn't start there. He's struggles to get the better of the centre halves when they sit deep. Early on clubs foolishly played a high line against him. Nobody is doing that anymore and it's killing him. 

Of course, we dont know how 17 million would filter back, but don't tell me a manager couldn't get a better championship striker for that much. All hypothetical of course. 

I dont see how he cannot be bullet proof as centre forward. The only other one we have is Sam Gallagher.

Ive acknowledged the dry spell hes had in front of goal but that came on the back of a hot streak and within a season in which he is the second top scorer and in a year in which he is the top scorer in the league. Its a little premature to make out as if he is anything other than indispensable or that he has been "figured out."

As far as im concerned, the improvement on the 2nd top scorer in the league would be having the very top scorer.

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

Just now, Bigdoggsteel said:

If your centre forward brings others into play, the burden isn't on him to score all the goals. 

Do you really think Chris Brown could hold the ball up well, bring others into play and win headers? Then maybe your not the man to be discussing this with! 

He could do the things you mentioned but he couldn't score a goal to save his life. That's what you're advocating, a big lumbering target man who wins the odd header and brings others into play but who can't score as many as AA. It's funny really. 

[RevidgeBlue]

1 minute ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

If your centre forward brings others into play, the burden isn't on him to score all the goals. 

Do you really think Chris Brown could hold the ball up well, bring others into play and win headers? Then maybe your not the man to be discussing this with! 

You accuse us of being predictable but want us to funnel the ball forwards towards a target man to "bring others into play"?

Was there a bit too much Christmas sherry left over from yesterday? 🙂