Rovers vs Owls Boxing Day 3pm through a Socially Distanced Looking Glass

[Bigdoggsteel]

42 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Ive been consistent in saying that his performances recently have not been of the very high standard hes set himself. The Bristol City one was probably the worst, the defeat wasnt solely down to him and suggestions that it has damaged morale, that he was playing up to the cameras etc were a total overeaction but of course we have suffered because our prolific goalscorer is not on top form. But as far as im concerned, his performance level defined by his goal output this season and this year does indeed give him a little more scope for patience because he has been so good for us. By all means criticise his recent form but talk of dropping him, selling him while we can, of him being easily replacable, conspiracy theories about why he is taking so many shots (he is a striker so a level of selfishness is natural) are all unnecessary.

Armstrongs whole demeanour changed when he moved from playing out wide to being central, he has been a different player.

Regarding your last question, the fact that the only alternative is Sam Gallagher, I would probably be especially patient with someone who keeps scoring so many goals that he could return to scoring ways. That being said, for a player who has a longest goal drought of 3 games in 2020, it goes against reasonable evidence that he will go on a massive run without a goal and of course if the goals stopped then its different.

Rhodes' goal record was brilliantly consistent over numerous years but in 2020 since he moved centrally Armstrong has scored goals more regularly and at a faster rate even than Rhodes is. The key is to maintain it. I would potentially say that with his pace, and with his ability to score from range, Armstrong has a wider skillset. I always defended Rhodes and always will because hes a goalscorer. Its the same with Armstrong since he moved centrally, scoring goals at such a rate for me gains goalscorers more patience during a rare and/or belated dry patch which all strikers go through, if they score goals at a rate of

Another player will at some stage take Armstrongs role in the team, I would be pleasantly surprised if he scored to the same extent because Armstrong has scored more than all but one. I have always felt in recent years that goalscoring has become an underappreciated skill, especially when a striker sets such a high standard as Rhodes did which meant that some people took the goals for granted and looked for flaws especially physically, he wasnt fast, strong etc but his main skill was in his brain which is the case with all goalscorers. Selfishness is a trait within all goalscorers.

I would play Dack as a 10 behind Armstrong once the former is fully fit. Not only would that couple 2 goalscorers but it would also allow Dack to slip Armstrong through on goal.

Plus I never said drop him or said he was easily replaceable. So don't put words in my mouth. Thanks. 

Also, it's not an over reaction to say his display against Bristol would damage morale or that he was playing up to the cameras, even though ,again, I never said the latter. If you play on a team and someone is extremely greedy, you will give them leeway while things are going well, but the goodwill won't be long disappearing when they aren't. 

You keep mentioning selfishness like it's a good thing, then say you acknowledge Armstrong has been too greedy at times. As before with results, being greedy is fine ,if you are scoring and most importantly of all THE TEAM ARE WINNING. 

[Wood26]

31 minutes ago, matt83 said:

Moggasaurus vs Stoke:

“It was a game where we were pretty dominant from start to finish but we’ve come away with no points,"

Mowbray reflected after the game. “It’s been a frustrating day for us. 

“They had a throw in, nobody reacted, the ball went in and it was a goal from nothing really.

“We were against a team that we felt we should be beating, just as we did when we went away to Bristol.

“Teams are banking up with lots and lots of bodies behind the ball these days.

“Possession doesn’t mean a lot in football, we’re dominating a lot of games but we have to finish moves off and score goals.

“Maybe it was a day for someone like [Bradley] Dack, someone who can stick a ball between the legs and curl one into the top corner, someone with that bit of individuality.

“If we’d have got one then we might have got four or five today," he added.

“I can’t remember Stoke getting over the halfway line in the final 20 minutes, we had a lot of the ball, but we just couldn’t break them down."

 

Moggasaurus vs sheff wed:

They stick a lot of men behind the ball, they make it really hard for you, but we gave them a goal.

“We have them the goal, they didn’t have to work for it and it gave them something to hold onto.

“It feels really harsh, it feels really tough, but you’re not given anything in football.

“You have to keep working at it and to find the answers.

“It took a bit of magic from Rothwell to break the lines and score for us," he said.

“You could see the impact (Bradley) Dack had, one touches, round the corner, and if his flick hadn’t hit Armstrong on the chin, he’d have been in one-on-one with the goalkeeper.

“(Ben) Brereton maybe should have scored, we hit the post, but we’re left frustrated."

The quotes for today’s game is pretty accurate to be fair. That’s pretty much what went down.

[Wood26]

My thoughts on last few games, there has been 2 players I am really not impressed with.

Douglas, I don’t know what he was like when he was good, but he looks well off the pace. Very slow, always backwards. Not the type i thought we was getting from what I read about him.

Holtby, started season well, when he missed a few games I thought we really missed him. But my god he’s gone down hill. Dack was so much better, 1, 2 touches quick play. I’ve always kinda doubted if Dack could step up the EPL, but if Holtby played for Germany, Dack looked miles above him today.

[LDRover]

12 minutes ago, Wood26 said:

The quotes for today’s game is pretty accurate to be fair. That’s pretty much what went down.

That might be correct but what Matt is driving at (I think) is that even Mowbray admits to knowing what's going wrong but does nothing to make it right. 

[Wood26]

3 minutes ago, LDRover said:

That might be correct but what Matt is driving at (I think) is that even Mowbray admits to knowing what's going wrong but does nothing to make it right. 

I’m really torn on it.

I think we are crap at the back, yet I read last 3 games we only had 3 shots on target against us (they all went in).

The team he puts out im happy with and would expect them to create chances.

But like I said earlier, we are easy to defend against if you just sit in, as we don’t cross the ball, so it’s got to be a moment of magic or a superb pass, then we need to finish it.

How quickly Dack was laying off passes is probably what Mowbray expects of the others, they just not doing it.

Gallagher looks so out of place with how we play, don’t know what Mowbray is doing with him. He should be our plan B if he’s on pitch, problem is, as we saw with his header that went for a throw, he’s not great at that.

I get excited for every game, and then when it starts and I see teams sitting back, I’m instantly frustrated/bored knowing it’s 90 mins of passing round our own halfway line. I long for us to just lump it in the box and see what happens.

[LDRover]

4 minutes ago, Wood26 said:

I’m really torn on it.

I think we are crap at the back, yet I read last 3 games we only had 3 shots on target against us (they all went in).

The team he puts out im happy with and would expect them to create chances.

But like I said earlier, we are easy to defend against if you just sit in, as we don’t cross the ball, so it’s got to be a moment of magic or a superb pass, then we need to finish it.

How quickly Dack was laying off passes is probably what Mowbray expects of the others, they just not doing it.

Gallagher looks so out of place with how we play, don’t know what Mowbray is doing with him. He should be our plan B if he’s on pitch, problem is, as we saw with his header that went for a throw, he’s not great at that.

I get excited for every game, and then when it starts and I see teams sitting back, I’m instantly frustrated/bored knowing it’s 90 mins of passing round our own halfway line. I long for us to just lump it in the box and see what happens.

Early in the season our first thought when getting the ball was to pass forward, now we go safe and look sideways.

If that's down to the players I question their bottle but also question the manager because he has to set the players' mindsets to being more positive. For me I think this change is led by the manager and his muddled thinking regarding possession stats. I've said it before and I'll say it again, dominating the ball is not the same as dominating the opposition.

[Boroblue]

Where just never the finished article. Change our style but not our win rate. Teams just sit back and watch us pass ourselves to death.

It’s shite but different shite same outcome. There is a point where you just want to give up

Has Pulis said he’s been lucky to been given the chance to build a team,

So when can I expect us to start winning because we are now in our death spiral of results 

I only have one question 

how much time ?

 

[roversfan99]

I dont see the need to go from one extreme to another and start playing the percentages looking for long balls. Armstrong is a prolific striker, Elliott is a stand out talent in this league as is Dack (coupled with a very healthy goal and assist tally) now he is back, none of them 3 suit us playing the percentages, none of our players do, the closest would be Gallagher who is not very good in general and certainly isnt suitable as a target man.

I just look at certain aspects of our game whereby we are lacking in ways that reflect badly on the manager. We still concede far too many goals, we have a solitary clean sheet in 10 or 11 games and quite simply having to score at least 2 goals a game to win is creating a very difficult mountain to climb, that is something that Mowbray has failed to fix repeatedly during his time here. I dont think that the midfield is as productive as it could be, as much as we often dominate possession it in no way means that we are in control of games, we dont move the ball quickly enough which counteracts the desire to dominate possession, there is usually a lack of penetration and individually, Holtby is a passenger in almost every game and despite his brilliant goal today Rothwell isnt nearly productive enough either. From set pieces we are particularly poor too, we have attacking players in the 3 I mentioned who will score goals but you need to supplement that from set pieces but our attempts are often poorly executed, Mowbray said the other week that he leaves it to his staff but I dont understand why he hasnt stepped in.

[Bigdoggsteel]

Nobody is suggesting we "start playing the percentages" and hoofing long balls in on top of our midget attackers, but the reality is we have struggled to break teams down as late. Brereton and Dack will be huge additions to have back. We must be the most impotent team from set prices as well though, so I do wish we have a player step up and start getting on the end of them. Ayala and Lenihan, here's looking at ye. 

Issues remain with the defence though and that will probably be our undoing. 

[Butty]

3 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Nobody is suggesting we "start playing the percentages" and hoofing long balls in on top of our midget attackers, but the reality is we have struggled to break teams down as late. Brereton and Dack will be huge additions to have back. We must be the most impotent team from set prices as well though, so I do wish we have a player step up and start getting on the end of them. Ayala and Lenihan, here's looking at ye. 

Issues remain with the defence though and that will probably be our undoing. 

The manager will also be our undoing.

[Miker]

22 minutes ago, LDRover said:

Early in the season our first thought when getting the ball was to pass forward, now we go safe and look sideways.

If that's down to the players I question their bottle but also question the manager because he has to set the players' mindsets to being more positive. For me I think this change is led by the manager and his muddled thinking regarding possession stats. I've said it before and I'll say it again, dominating the ball is not the same as dominating the opposition.

I think one of our biggest problems last season was being caught out on the counter attack. I think our more cautious play is a result of trying to not over commit. Tbf, it's worked quite well. I don't think we've conceded many on the counter recently, we're just conceding stupid, sloppy goals.

I don't know how much Mowbray can do other than drop players like Douglas. It's hard to mitigate individual mistakes. His quotes above are spot on. Our defence goes to sleep for a second and Stoke score. Douglas heads the ball into Ayala and suddenly they are through and produce a great goal.

We have no way back imo. We were too good early in the season so teams now know to park the bus when they play us. It's exactly the type of strategy we used to employ under Allardyce. Often coming away with all 3 points.

We have shown in games we can beat the parked bus but we need to find a way to do it more frequently. My main gripes with Mowbray right now is that Douglas is shite and he's not getting enough out of Gally. We also need to be at least drawing with the teams above us if we can't find a way through. The amount of points dropped to playoff rivals is inexcusable.

[Tom]

Hard not to be utterly frustrated, it feels like the manager doesn’t learn and adapt.

He’s quoted today in the Telegraph saying the game went about as he expected, well he’s paid handsomely to alter that in our favour, teams have a right to put up walls, it’s his job to mastermind taking them down!

If you expect a game to go a certain way that isn’t positive and you fail to alter the course then as a manager you have failed.

[JHRover]

1 hour ago, Boroblue said:

Where just never the finished article. Change our style but not our win rate. Teams just sit back and watch us pass ourselves to death.

It’s shite but different shite same outcome. There is a point where you just want to give up

Has Pulis said he’s been lucky to been given the chance to build a team,

So when can I expect us to start winning because we are now in our death spiral of results 

I only have one question 

how much time ?

 

Pulis' record at Middlesbrough over 18 months was far superior to Mowbray's here. That's if you focus on results which is what this game is all about. It might be boring on occasions but he got them into the top 6 in his first season and just outside it (7th I think) in his second season. Despite that he was let go and wasn't given the opportunity of year after year to gradually improve them. He missed his target of promotion twice so was let go.

He's no doubt envious of Mowbray who is now into season 3 of Championship football and 4 of permanent management here and has never really done any more than flirt with the top 6 yet still gets an easy ride by nearly everyone because he 'plays nice football'. He won't be the only one. I suspect half the managers in this division look at him and think he's got it great here.

[RevidgeBlue]

2 hours ago, Wood26 said:

Obviously Elliott goes.

Sure JRC be sorted, if not does anyone really care other then he was in our academy.

Fingers crossed on Nyambe, like I said before if he doesn’t sign its on him, he plays every week no doubt we want him.

Rubbish.

He's been consistently left out in his time here to accommodate Bennett and JRC and was even sacrificed for Buckley the other week.

Mowbray obviously doesn't rate him highly enough and because he doesnt recognise his talent hasn't made renewing his contract a high enough priority.

[RevidgeBlue]

Armstrong isn't the world's best striker, if he was he wouldn't be here, but I find the criticism of him fairly bizarre.

The problem isn't Armstrong, it's the manager. We have the players to unlock opposition defences, Nyambe, Holtby, Elliott, Rothwell,  Dolan, Chapman, Brereton, Dack, Armstrong, the problem is Mowbray and his his preference for playing a redundant extra holding midfielder and his obsession with meaningless possession moving the ball about sideways and backwards at snail's pace whilst the opposition regroup behind the ball and taking four or five passes where one or two would do.

We'll get nowhere with Mowbray in charge. I think we could sign Messi and Ronaldo and he'd manage to find a way to make them look ineffective.

Suggestions we need a target man are incredibly wide of the mark. We simply need to ditch Gallagher, put players out wide who can actually play in the position and move the ball far far quicker. As LD Rover said about yesterday, we look like we're playing a testimonial match most of the time.

Edited December 27, 2020 by RevidgeBlue

[Mercer]

Think something is fundamentally wrong.

We are now struggling even against the type of teams we were hammering earlier in the season.

Last three games against Owls, Stoke and Rotherham have given us 1, win, 1 draw and 1 loss with just three goals scored.  Nine points out of nine had to be the target with 7 the minimum acceptable return.

As @RevidgeBluesaid above we have the players to produce the magic (as Rothwell's goal showed today).

IMO, in the main, our football has been dire recently - horrible to watch.

Mowbray has no excuses.  Yes, we have injuries but so do all other teams.  Our squad is big and even with a number of injuries there should be enough there to see us with a bigger points return and higher up the table.

It all comes down to the manager who needs to set up the team to get the best out of the players available to him.  IMO, on this score, Mowbray fails abysmally.

Mowbray is right - we are on a journey.  Sadly, I think he must have read 'Women in Love' by DH Lawrence “That’s the place to get to—nowhere. One wants to wander away from the world’s somewheres, into our own nowhere.”

 

 

 

[chaddyrovers]

Disappointed performance and result. 

Our tempo of play and urgency were far too slow and we didnt up the tempo until Dack and Brereton came on. 

Not a fan of Armstrong wide with Elliott as false 9 and its doesn't work. Mowbray at fault for that. 

Douglas has been massive disappointment since coming here and need dropping asap. 

Would like to see certain changes to the line up for Huddersfield game. 

[The Mighty Chaffinch]

7 hours ago, RevidgeBlue said:

Armstrong isn't the world's best striker, if he was he wouldn't be here, but I find the criticism of him fairly bizarre.

The problem isn't Armstrong, it's the manager. We have the players to unlock opposition defences, Nyambe, Holtby, Elliott, Rothwell,  Dolan, Chapman, Brereton, Dack, Armstrong, the problem is Mowbray and his his preference for playing a redundant extra holding midfielder and his obsession with meaningless possession moving the ball about sideways and backwards at snail's pace whilst the opposition regroup behind the ball and taking four or five passes where one or two would do.

We'll get nowhere with Mowbray in charge. I think we could sign Messi and Ronaldo and he'd manage to find a way to make them look ineffective.

Suggestions we need a target man are incredibly wide of the mark. We simply need to ditch Gallagher, put players out wide who can actually play in the position and move the ball far far quicker. As LD Rover said about yesterday, we look like we're playing a testimonial match most of the time.

What worries me at the moment is the lack of personnel to change our style if the going gets tough. We are incredibly light in the striking department since DG’s departure. If Mowbray plays the likes of Brereton, Gallagher and Dolan as wide players then that leaves us with Armstrong as the only central striker (and even he is likely to move wide during matches). Anyone who can hold the ball up and give us that get out (for Lenihan’s aimless long balls mainly) would be a welcome addition...not necessarily as a sure fire starter but certainly as back up

[dingles staying down 4ever]

19 minutes ago, The Mighty Chaffinch said:

What worries me at the moment is the lack of personnel to change our style if the going gets tough. We are incredibly light in the striking department since DG’s departure. If Mowbray plays the likes of Brereton, Gallagher and Dolan as wide players then that leaves us with Armstrong as the only central striker (and even he is likely to move wide during matches). Anyone who can hold the ball up and give us that get out (for Lenihan’s aimless long balls mainly) would be a welcome addition...not necessarily as a sure fire starter but certainly as back up

The ability to change style is not down to personnel but poor coaching. Example in prime is Sam Gallagher. He reminds me of a player from our past who under a proper manager changed his playing style to become more physical but was a total flop here. Step forward Kevin Davies under Big Sam.

At this club he hid was bullied by central defenders and looked and was a total flop. Allerdyce for all his faults transformed him into a player who teams feared. Gallagher has all the physical attributes to be the same but Mowbray's solution is to play him wide and hide him. That isnt having confidence in a player. When he has come on as a sub he has shown he has the ability to be more physical. When he starts Mowbray plays him wide

Mowbray is slowly changing the style back to his trusted formula because he hasnt the confidence in his players. He will go more defensive and negative rather than play to players strengths and Dack coming back will only speed this up. That may sound like a criticism of Dack but it isn't. Mowbray will have him playing as the false No.9 soon, we will also see Armstrong, Gallagher wide and two defensive midfielders. It may have already happened if Evans was fit.

Edited December 27, 2020 by dingles staying down 4ever

[Sparks Rover]

2 hours ago, chaddyrovers said:

Would like to see certain changes to the line up for Huddersfield game. 

So would I. Starting with Mowbray 

[Roversider]

I can understand why there was a change of positions in the front three, we all knew that Pulis would have done his preparation and playing Armstrong wide with Elliott as a false 9 was worth a go but that needed to change earlier when it was clear that progress wasn't being made.  Brereton has been missed, he carries the ball in a way that Gallagher can't and has much more movement.  Bearing in mind how Brereton has been slaughtered by many on this forum in previous seasons it shows players can change opinions by performances, he also has youth on his side.

I'm also sure that Dack would have only had a cameo role if we had been ahead but what a breath of fresh air when he came on, some very clever over the top passes which turned Wednesday around.  Makes you wonder why some of the other players didn't try that.

Not enough pace and zip before that, Holtby has slipped from his great early season form and Johnson is s-l-o-w and looks at full stretch too many times.

Douglas is easily the biggest disappointment for me, a stand-out player at Wolves and my mates who are Leeds fans rated him highly - they were surprised that Bielsa let him go - I'm not now.  Bell isn't the best left back in the world but he is more athletic and should start in the next game.  Douglas always feels like he has a critical error in him all the time, his passing is average and his set-pieces (wasn't he supposed to be a specialist?) have made me wonder whether the word disappointing is adequate.  I would hope we haven't committed to signing him permanently.   

The one saving grace is that we do have players that can pull something out of nothing - Rothwell gets me excited because he is direct when he has the ball.

Frustrated Rovers Fan seems to be our normal state nowadays, probably because this squad (apart from the depth of the defence) looks like the best set of players we've had in a while.

I look on with interest as to who starts the next game.

 

[Stuart]

14 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Rhodes' goal record was brilliantly consistent over numerous years but in 2020 since he moved centrally Armstrong has scored goals more regularly and at a faster rate even than Rhodes is. The key is to maintain it. I would potentially say that with his pace, and with his ability to score from range, Armstrong has a wider skillset. I always defended Rhodes and always will because hes a goalscorer. Its the same with Armstrong since he moved centrally, scoring goals at such a rate for me gains goalscorers more patience during a rare and/or belated dry patch which all strikers go through, if they score goals at a rate of

Another player will at some stage take Armstrongs role in the team, I would be pleasantly surprised if he scored to the same extent because Armstrong has scored more than all but one. I have always felt in recent years that goalscoring has become an underappreciated skill, especially when a striker sets such a high standard as Rhodes did which meant that some people took the goals for granted and looked for flaws especially physically, he wasnt fast, strong etc but his main skill was in his brain which is the case with all goalscorers. Selfishness is a trait within all goalscorers.

I would play Dack as a 10 behind Armstrong once the former is fully fit. Not only would that couple 2 goalscorers but it would also allow Dack to slip Armstrong through on goal.

Agree with much of this. My concern is that Armstrong will go out wide again but has stopped looking to be provider and will instead cut inside for a shot-lottery (a shottery?) and make Dack redundant. My other concern is that Mowbray’s tactics will result in Armstrong’s value plummeting, which is why I would hope we cash in this January. (Players come and go).

Alternatively, hopefully, Arma and Dack will gel and both fire us into the play-offs in the second half of the season. (A must).

The problem is fitting everyone else in. With Dolan (not Mowbray’s recruit) the obvious one to miss out, despite being the one we were most crying out for in the last 10 mins on Saturday, Gallagher simply has to make way to accommodate Dack. However, we have quite a soft centre if we play our best attacking players, with no Johnson or Trybull, but I just can’t leave Rothwell out. Have we ever had so many attacking options while having to few in defence?

Our best side from Mowbray’s squad... (?)

[chaddyrovers]

@Stuart I hope doesnt Armstrong goes wide as it doesn't work. 

Is that your team or the team you think Mowbray will choose? 

With Dack back and Travis close to being back. I would go with this team for Huddersfield game. 

                           Kaminski

     Nyambe   Lenihan   Ayala   Bell

        Rothwell Downing Davenport

           Dolan  Armstrong   Brereton 

Give Elliott a break and bring on from bench. 

My team with Dack and Travis in it. 

                         Kaminski

     Nyambe  Lenihan  Ayala  Bell

              Rothwell Travis  Dack

            Elliott   Armstrong  Brereton 

What do people think of that team?

                  

 

 

[chaddyrovers]

2 hours ago, Sparks Rover said:

So would I. Starting with Mowbray 

We arent going to agree on Mowbray are we? So.better we agree to disagree

.

[Sparks Rover]

17 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Agree with much of this. My concern is that Armstrong will go out wide again but has stopped looking to be provider and will instead cut inside for a shot-lottery (a shottery?) and make Dack redundant. My other concern is that Mowbray’s tactics will result in Armstrong’s value plummeting, which is why I would hope we cash in this January. (Players come and go).

Alternatively, hopefully, Arma and Dack will gel and both fire us into the play-offs in the second half of the season. (A must).

The problem is fitting everyone else in. With Dolan (not Mowbray’s recruit) the obvious one to miss out, despite being the one we were most crying out for in the last 10 mins on Saturday, Gallagher simply has to make way to accommodate Dack. However, we have quite a soft centre if we play our best attacking players, with no Johnson or Trybull, but I just can’t leave Rothwell out. Have we ever had so many attacking options while having to few in defence?

Our best side from Mowbray’s squad... (?)

Literally no defensive cover on the left, with Lenihan also playing left this is completely unbalanced.  2 attacking midfielders in the middle, no defensive attributes between them. Travis has to play unless you are going with fit players today.

Can't argue with the forwards really