Mowbrays Successor

[Stuart]

With there being some similarities in the phasing (due to also overstaying their abilities) I reminded myself of the circumstances of Bowyer leaving.

He was removed in November 2015 after a run of W5D6L5, sat in 15th, 4 points outside the bottom three.

That’s a run that would delight Mowbray and his fans and would be spun as stability - with all kind of tropes and euphemistic language to support it.

So we can expect Mowbray to get the full window and one-third of next season at least. If he stays in the top half the gig will rumble on. It doesn’t appear that Waggott will be retiring any time soon, as was the rumour, so the trio of self-preservation (got to hand it to them really, they do seem to have absolute loyalty to each other) will also ensure nothing happens to change the manager position.

With all of his so-called, and self-proclaimed instilling of loyalty, insistence on having the ‘right characters’ (for dressing room and sub bench harmony and subservience rather than getting results), and doing things ‘the right way’, it would be easy to be seduced (as the media are) that we have an absolute diamond in charge.

The trouble is, football is, and always will be, a results business. Nobody likes to play well and lose. What people like even less is to play badly, mind numbingly at times, and still lose. But here we are.

That said, after defeat to Burnley at the end of October 2015, Bowyer finally took on the fans with this pearler:

"There was a lot of emotion attached to Saturday's defeat," he added. "It's nearly Halloween and you see people coming out for the ground you haven't seen for 18 months.

"They'll probably go back in and hide under the stone for another couple of games, but that's just part and parcel of football."

So maybe if Mowbray just avoids that faux pas he will keep the fans on side and continue to avoid the axe regardless of results, form, league position and matchday income.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Stuart

[m1st]

21 minutes ago, LDRover said:

There are those, that after 10 shitty years, are still willing to give the owners the benefit of the doubt.

Surely, a failure to remove the Coventrio after this clusterfuck of a season would remove that?

Reading the reports in today's sports pages about the Cup Final, my main thought has been, "Please can we find a benevolent Thai billionaire to offer Venky's an irresistible sum for us and then run this once-great club of ours like Leicester's owners run them?"

It's not too greedy of me, is it?

[gumboots]

I reflected to my husband on the sliding doors scenario where Venkys walked in and did it right. 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

You could count on the fingers of one hand the decisions they’ve got right in over ten years. That takes some doing. That success rate in their chicken choking business would have closed it years ago. If they’d have tossed a coin each time they would have got more right.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[JHRover]

Presumably next season is also a write off due to Covid 19 still being around and the "unique conditions" that creates.

We won't be taking a foreign training camp and will lose Armstrong so all the excuses are ready to go again.

Just wait for the ones about struggling to adjust without Armstrong's goals, filling the void he leaves and transitioning to a new style of play to cope with it.

Great for the Football Manager laptop brigade but depressing as hell for me.

[Stuart]

36 minutes ago, JHRover said:

Presumably next season is also a write off due to Covid 19 still being around and the "unique conditions" that creates.

We won't be taking a foreign training camp and will lose Armstrong so all the excuses are ready to go again.

Just wait for the ones about struggling to adjust without Armstrong's goals, filling the void he leaves and transitioning to a new style of play to cope with it.

Great for the Football Manager laptop brigade but depressing as hell for me.

The only difference is that at the end of this season Mowbray no longer has a contract.

It will be the biggest F you of all from Venkys to the fans if he gets another one.

[JHRover]

2 minutes ago, Stuart said:

The only difference is that at the end of this season Mowbray no longer has a contract.

It will be the biggest F you of all from Venkys to the fans if he gets another one.

I think Waggott and Mowbray could sort him out a new deal and I doubt Venkys would even know or care about it.

I expect they think it is a minor issue and not any of the supporters business what contracts they give to their employees. For all we know they could have extended it already and just not announced it. 

[Stuart]

1 minute ago, JHRover said:

I think Waggott and Mowbray could sort him out a new deal and I doubt Venkys would even know or care about it.

I expect they think it is a minor issue and not any of the supporters business what contracts they give to their employees. For all we know they could have extended it already and just not announced it. 

Entirely possible. Similar happened with Kean.

Steve on November 22nd: “Yes, there have been discussions about a new contract, but I have told the owners that this is an inappropriate time to conclude any new contract discussions. Instead, the real issue is for me and everyone else to concentrate on the games.”

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/steve-kean-20-damning-quotes-823871

 

[Lucimo]

8 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Entirely possible. Similar happened with Kean.

Steve on November 22nd: “Yes, there have been discussions about a new contract, but I have told the owners that this is an inappropriate time to conclude any new contract discussions. Instead, the real issue is for me and everyone else to concentrate on the games.”

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/steve-kean-20-damning-quotes-823871

 

Reading those quotes, was there not a TV interview also with a reference about not having a dog despite dog food being in the background in his kitchen or did I just have a random dream 🤔

[Stuart]

6 minutes ago, Lucimo said:

Reading those quotes, was there not a TV interview also with a reference about not having a dog despite dog food being in the background in his kitchen or did I just have a random dream 🤔

Ha, yes. It was a photo of him with what looked like a bag of pedigree chum on a shelf behind him.

[Sparks Rover]

34 minutes ago, JHRover said:

I think Waggott and Mowbray could sort him out a new deal and I doubt Venkys would even know or care about it.

They dropped a clanger when not extending about September last.year.

we were near the top, surprisingly they didn't sneak that one through.

[Exiled_Rover]

1 hour ago, Stuart said:

The only difference is that at the end of this season Mowbray no longer has a contract.

It will be the biggest F you of all from Venkys to the fans if he gets another one.

At this point you'd be hard pressed not to convince me that the Venky's are just incredibly rich Burnley fans having a laugh.

[Oldgregg86]

At this point I'm waiting for tony to sell off any assets and then as the window closes say unfortunately the scouting network was set up in France and due to the problems with the fishermen we couldn't get deals over the line, but I've got a good honest humble group of lads and we will go out there and do our best and hopefully not let to many people down come Saturday against a huge club in Lincoln who on the back of a promotion will be raring to go. i hope the 17 fans realise this isn't 95 anymore and we can try and get a point in the bag and carry on building for the future (insert any championship club who has had a good start) and model ourselves on them

Edited May 17, 2021 by Oldgregg86

[gumboots]

It occurs to me that, if Mowbray is going down the route of playing our youngsters, then we might as well bin him anyway and give the job to the guys who already manage them relatively successfully. Thats not what I want to happen, but it's logical.

[Oldgregg86]

1 hour ago, gumboots said:

It occurs to me that, if Mowbray is going down the route of playing our youngsters, then we might as well bin him anyway and give the job to the guys who already manage them relatively successfully. Thats not what I want to happen, but it's logical.

Or Damien Johnson. Again wouldn’t be my first choice but from your logic make sense. May aswell.  Cant do any worse and could do a lot better . No brainer of cost cutting is in effect and we aren’t going to source an actual manager capable of the task in hand

Edited May 17, 2021 by Oldgregg86

[MarkBRFC]

3 hours ago, Oldgregg86 said:

Or Damien Johnson. Again wouldn’t be my first choice but from your logic make sense. May aswell.  Cant do any worse and could do a lot better . No brainer of cost cutting is in effect and we aren’t going to source an actual manager capable of the task in hand

Don't hear much of him anymore, the cynic in me says that Mowbray removed him from the U23 role because he was doing well, and he's a fairly popular ex player. When things are going bad Mowbray knows full well there will always be a portion of the fanbase who would be saying "sack Mowbray and let Johnson take over etc.

There wouldn't be so much of a clamour for Billy Barr to take over, even if he does better with the U23's than Johnson.

[chaddyrovers]

5 hours ago, gumboots said:

It occurs to me that, if Mowbray is going down the route of playing our youngsters, then we might as well bin him anyway and give the job to the guys who already manage them relatively successfully. Thats not what I want to happen, but it's logical.

If Mowbray has been told that he will have to use some of under 23's this coming season due to lack of room in the budget and the owners want to see the manager bring through more then I am not against it considering how much investment we have made in having category 1 status even in league 1 and over the past 10 years of the owners' reign here. 

Is Mowbray the right manager and can he develop them is a big question

4 hours ago, Oldgregg86 said:

Or Damien Johnson. Again wouldn’t be my first choice but from your logic make sense. May aswell.  Cant do any worse and could do a lot better . No brainer of cost cutting is in effect and we aren’t going to source an actual manager capable of the task in hand

 Johnson might be the perfect choice to bring them through as manager/head coach or even as number 2 under new manager/head coach who believe in youth development

[Bigdoggsteel]

52 minutes ago, MarkBRFC said:

Don't hear much of him anymore, the cynic in me says that Mowbray removed him from the U23 role because he was doing well, and he's a fairly popular ex player. When things are going bad Mowbray knows full well there will always be a portion of the fanbase who would be saying "sack Mowbray and let Johnson take over etc.

There wouldn't be so much of a clamour for Billy Barr to take over, even if he does better with the U23's than Johnson.

I don't think Mowbray is that Michavalian. At the end of the day, it was a promotion for Johnson. 

[roversfan99]

The thing with academy players is that im not sure that it is something whereby you can randomly choose one financially tight season to just surge through a load of youngsters all of a sudden, are there even any who are ready to come into our first team squad.

The only workable strategy is to bring youngsters through as and when they are ready to genuinely contribute.

That isnt me dismissing the value of the academy, indeed if there are some individuals ready to step up then by all means bring them through, and if not, an academy is an ongoing process that needs to continue. But the current first team squad is lacking in experience as much as anything, I think that Johnson and Ayala are the only 2 contracted players next season above the age of 30. We have the likes of Rankin Costello, Wharton, Pickering, Buckley, Davenport, Brereton, Travis, Nyambe etc and maybe even Carter all expected to be right within the first team picture, we need some experience and proven quality.

[chaddyrovers]

41 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

The thing with academy players is that im not sure that it is something whereby you can randomly choose one financially tight season to just surge through a load of youngsters all of a sudden, are there even any who are ready to come into our first team squad.

The only workable strategy is to bring youngsters through as and when they are ready to genuinely contribute.

That isnt me dismissing the value of the academy, indeed if there are some individuals ready to step up then by all means bring them through, and if not, an academy is an ongoing process that needs to continue. But the current first team squad is lacking in experience as much as anything, I think that Johnson and Ayala are the only 2 contracted players next season above the age of 30. We have the likes of Rankin Costello, Wharton, Pickering, Buckley, Davenport, Brereton, Travis, Nyambe etc and maybe even Carter all expected to be right within the first team picture, we need some experience and proven quality.

Barnsley seems to doing ok without players over 30 years old?

I think Pike as right back option and McBride as striker option are ready but is Mowbray ready to trust them?

[JHRover]

1 hour ago, chaddyrovers said:

If Mowbray has been told that he will have to use some of under 23's this coming season due to lack of room in the budget and the owners want to see the manager bring through more then I am not against it considering how much investment we have made in having category 1 status even in league 1 and over the past 10 years of the owners' reign here. 

Is Mowbray the right manager and can he develop them is a big question

 Johnson might be the perfect choice to bring them through as manager/head coach or even as number 2 under new manager/head coach who believe in youth development

If Mowbray has been told anything of the sort about who he should use then he should resign.

He is the manager and his job is results. How he does it should be inconsequential and

If you want promotion you get the right manager and let him get on with it. I don't think Farke, Warnock, Wilder, Dyche and co. would ever have got promotion if they were instructed that they had to use players from the u23s.

Lack of room in the budget? How can that be the case when we've got losses of £20 million a year? Where is the  money going if there's no room to sign players having let 10+ go already this summer?

Phil Jones, Grant Hanley, David Raya. Between them there's about £25 million in transfer fees recieved in the last 10 years. That pays for the academy.

[roversfan99]

1 minute ago, JHRover said:

If Mowbray has been told anything of the sort about who he should use then he should resign.

He is the manager and his job is results. How he does it should be inconsequential and

If you want promotion you get the right manager and let him get on with it. I don't think Farke, Warnock, Wilder, Dyche and co. would ever have got promotion if they were instructed that they had to use players from the u23s.

Lack of room in the budget? How can that be the case when we've got losses of £20 million a year? Where is the  money going if there's no room to sign players having let 10+ go already this summer?

Phil Jones, Grant Hanley, David Raya. Between them there's about £25 million in transfer fees recieved in the last 10 years. That pays for the academy.

A lot of teams these days seem to think that it is fashionable to base everything on delusions of "philosophies" and random additional objectives, such as specifically bringing through excessive youngsters or aesthetic things such as playing "attractive football."

As you say, the manager should be the one who decides on such things, he would naturally play youngsters if he had sense and they were up to it, and he would play a style that he felt was the most appropriate and be judged on the results of that.

11 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

Barnsley seems to doing ok without players over 30 years old?

I think Pike as right back option and McBride as striker option are ready but is Mowbray ready to trust them?

How do you know based on a year of football against kids in which attendance to games has not been allowed and only towards the end of the season was coverage available?

[chaddyrovers]

6 minutes ago, JHRover said:

If Mowbray has been told anything of the sort about who he should use then he should resign.

He is the manager and his job is results. How he does it should be inconsequential and

If you want promotion you get the right manager and let him get on with it. I don't think Farke, Warnock, Wilder, Dyche and co. would ever have got promotion if they were instructed that they had to use players from the u23s.

Lack of room in the budget? How can that be the case when we've got losses of £20 million a year? Where is the  money going if there's no room to sign players having let 10+ go already this summer?

Phil Jones, Grant Hanley, David Raya. Between them there's about £25 million in transfer fees received in the last 10 years. That pays for the academy.

Why would any manager resign these days? even Wilder didn't walk but waited until a deal was agreed for his pay off. 

Clubs have philosophy they want to work within. Barnsley for example or Norwich. Plus Budget to work towards especially after Post Covid time which will be reduce for most Championship clubs. Norwich have sporting director/head coach structure that has produced 2 promotions but they havent overspend and worked within a budget. Mowbray has had over 20 million pounds to spend plus wages in the 3 seasons and we never got close to the top 6. Time for a change of manager and structure for me. 

I would imagine Rovers owners will want their losses reducing this season and will allow the manager to sign players but within a tight budget unless Armstrong is sold. Thats where our investment in our recruitment, scouting and data analysis department needs to come to front and find these players that we need and improve our team. 

Alot of those players we have let go needed to be released cos they weren't good enough for our first team now. 

1 minute ago, roversfan99 said:

 

How do you know based on a year of football against kids in which attendance to games has not been allowed and only towards the end of the season was coverage available?

I have seen plenty of Pike playing before the lockdown happened. Plus I have watched Every under 21's that Rovers covered. Plus talking to Sharpe and Crooke who attended the games. But this is why Mowbray should have played them in first team games towards end of the season instead he bottled it yet again for Evans, Downing, etc. 

We signed Pears when for me we have Eastham who could have been number 3 keeper this season. We didn't need another Keeper signings after signing Kaminski and the other foreign keeper. 

[JHRover]

6 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

A lot of teams these days seem to think that it is fashionable to base everything on delusions of "philosophies" and random additional objectives, such as specifically bringing through excessive youngsters or aesthetic things such as playing "attractive football."

As you say, the manager should be the one who decides on such things, he would naturally play youngsters if he had sense and they were up to it, and he would play a style that he felt was the most appropriate and be judged on the results of that.

How do you know based on a year of football against kids in which attendance to games has not been allowed and only towards the end of the season was coverage available?

Absolutely. It seems to have become lost somewhere along the line that the sole objective and metric of a professional football manager is to get results and achieve targets - points, promotions, prizes, league positions. Generally speaking only those managers that consistently achieve these last in the industry, those who can't or don't do it consistently fall by the wayside and end up on the scrapheap. Instead we get all this other nonsense. Part of it is because the manager is constantly making excuses and covering for his own shortfalls whilst dealing with idiots who don't understand football. Another part of it is the way the game is going, not just here but everywhere, where there always has to be a 'project' or 'journey' involving a philosophy and style of play. Gone are the days where a good manager goes into a club and just drags a team up.

I'm not surprised Mowbray goes down the road of claiming to play nice football or claiming to use the academy a lot because these are boxes ticked on the alternative measures of a manager - when targets arent hit or results not delivered then just fall back on the other stuff. It's distraction tactic stuff deployed by a manager not getting results and lapped up by those who bizarrely attach importance to these other issues.

Sadly we've ended up in a situation where the managers major failings will be forgotten and overlooked and instead he will get credit for throwing in youngsters, in the process hoodwinking people into thinking we are on another journey.

 

[gumboots]

Philosophy is fine if used correctly. If you sign the players to fit it and it includes winning as many matches as possible. Top clubs have a philosophy. They defend well, create from midfield and have strikers who find the back of the net. Everything else is frills and furbelows if you don't get that bit right