The Future of Watching Rovers

[Mercer]

If the likes of @Parsonblueare becoming 'disenfranchised' then Rovers' problems are even bigger than many of us feared.

It's very true - when fans get out of the habit of going, it's almost irreversible.

Sadly, I think the footballing product is, in the main, p1ss poor.  We've already lost some 10,000 season ticket holders in years gone by and it's not difficult to envisage a situation where we plummet down to 3,000 or so when a degree of normality returns (especially with Waggot's, IMO, weird and not so wonderful pricing policy).  If your product is so poor, your commercial revenues will also fall off the cliff.  It's a huge double whammy.

@toooldforthisreferred above to Mogga as a "Football Dinosaur" and Waggott as the "Businessman Dinosaur" who will kill-off our club.  I think he's spot on - both are, IMO, third raters who, I would think, see this as the ultimate pension pot filler in an almost pressure free environment (I doubt they can believe their luck).

Huge, huge changes are needed and I don't see them coming under Venky's.

Sadly, IMO, Rovers might well have to rise from the ashes in the not too distant future. 

[toooldforthis]

17 minutes ago, Stuart said:

Great post. I would just change the last word for “Blackburn people” (and I acknowledge the surrounding area ofc).

He has never given me the impression that he understands the people he is dealing with. John Williams in contrast got that spot on - even if he did have a better budget.

Let's not forget that John Williams started out in the same manner as Waggott.  He too increased matchday and ST prices to nose-bleed levels.  I was paying £95 per month for 2 adults and 3 children in the Family Stand.  It prompted lots of complaints from fans, long before message-boards existed outside of the club's own website.  I was one of many who wrote to Williams voicing my concerns about ticket prices for a cup game against then 3rd division Wigan.  The difference was that Williams listened and, more importantly, learned.  He replied with a promise that he would re-examine pricing policy for the following season.  He kept his word.  ST prices were almost halved.  Fans returned in their thousands.  BBE lower was almost filled.  Everybody benefited.  The point being - will Waggott listen?

[AllRoverAsia]

On 14/01/2021 at 21:56, JoeH said:

Football will change as a result of COVID, and the ways in which its consumed. COVID-19 has rapidly sped up technological and societal advances in ways we couldn't have expected. More people than ever will work from home, some major companies in America have become a 100% work from home company with no end date. 

Football is exactly the same. The Amazon Prime deal is just the start. How much longer will anybody bother with going to the ground as the older generations fade and the newer generations so used to TV and digital media consumption come in?

Little Timmy from Accrington is no longer deciding between the Crown Ground, Ewood Park or Turf Moor at 3pm on a Saturday, it's BT Sport at Stamford Bridge, Amazon Prime at Celtic Park or Sky at Camp Nou. Younger generations consume everything online, on screens & as traditional football fans die off, these newer generations simply aren't replacing those lost in the stands.

COVID-19 will just simply speed up that process that is bound to happen, and impossible to stop. The most progressive & financially stable plan is to embrace the inevitable changes coming. Start an e-sports team, engage these younger kids with relatable media content, make games more accessible digitally and monetise that to its peak.

I tend to agree with you.

What is an e-sports team?

However, there is more chance of Little Timmy never knowing that a football is round and continuing to shoot people in an online 'game'

Edited January 15, 2021 by AllRoverAsia

[Mattyblue]

27 minutes ago, toooldforthis said:

returned in their thousands.  BBE lower was almost filled.  Everybody benefited.  The point being - will Waggott listen?

Nevermind the BBEnd, we went a fair way to filling the DE for a while too...

[roversfan99]

1 hour ago, Mercer said:

If the likes of @Parsonblueare becoming 'disenfranchised' then Rovers' problems are even bigger than many of us feared.

It's very true - when fans get out of the habit of going, it's almost irreversible.

Sadly, I think the footballing product is, in the main, p1ss poor.  We've already lost some 10,000 season ticket holders in years gone by and it's not difficult to envisage a situation where we plummet down to 3,000 or so when a degree of normality returns (especially with Waggot's, IMO, weird and not so wonderful pricing policy).  If your product is so poor, your commercial revenues will also fall off the cliff.  It's a huge double whammy.

@toooldforthisreferred above to Mogga as a "Football Dinosaur" and Waggott as the "Businessman Dinosaur" who will kill-off our club.  I think he's spot on - both are, IMO, third raters who, I would think, see this as the ultimate pension pot filler in an almost pressure free environment (I doubt they can believe their luck).

Huge, huge changes are needed and I don't see them coming under Venky's.

Sadly, IMO, Rovers might well have to rise from the ashes in the not too distant future. 

I want a change of manager but for me it is a huge exaggeration to imply that Mowbray as a "football dinosaur" is going to help "kill off our club."

Covid is the main protagonist that will cause all Championship clubs (and below) serious problems. I take on your board about Waggott too, all of his pricing policies and marketing strategies have shown a clear lack of understanding as to our fan base and that will only exacerbate the problem.

All of this stuff about needing to rise from the ashes, on the back of some of the doomsday scenarios that you have dreamt up in the past, the club going under, the club selling its best players every summer etc before going onto the next match thread and telling people to lump on a comfortable Rovers win is what makes you somewhat of a parody figure.

I also dont feel comfortable with implying that Mowbray is merely topping up his pension and cant believe his luck. He is a manager who overall has done a decent job but has clearly IMO gone as far as he can, but he seems a decent enough bloke. It is of course a job to him as it would be any other person but there is no need to question his integrity, merely suggesting that we should change manager is adequate.

[Mercer]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

I want a change of manager but for me it is a huge exaggeration to imply that Mowbray as a "football dinosaur" is going to help "kill off our club." - if you read the post from @toooldfor I think you will see his comment ("kill off our club) applies to Waggott and not Mowbray!

Covid is the main protagonist that will cause all Championship clubs (and below) serious problems. I take on your board about Waggott too, all of his pricing policies and marketing strategies have shown a clear lack of understanding as to our fan base and that will only exacerbate the problem.

All of this stuff about needing to rise from the ashes, on the back of some of the doomsday scenarios that you have dreamt up in the past, the club going under, the club selling its best players every summer etc before going onto the next match thread and telling people to lump on a comfortable Rovers win is what makes you somewhat of a parody figure.  I think there are three options: 1) Venky's continue to support Rovers indefinitely at a huge cost which on average must be in the £15m to £20m / season range.  2) They will sell the club and incur a huge loss. 3) The club will become insolvent.  I think Venky's hope and pray some manager will get us back to the PL to help recoup some of their vast outlay but to tbh, IMO, until they appoint a quality manager, this will not happen.  So there you go - take your pick!  Rovers have a number of players who can produce special moments hence my optimism about some results.  Sadly, IMO, we have a manager who is unable to get a consistent tune out of them!

I also dont feel comfortable with implying that Mowbray is merely topping up his pension and cant believe his luck. He is a manager who overall has done a decent job but has clearly IMO gone as far as he can, but he seems a decent enough bloke. It is of course a job to him as it would be any other person but there is no need to question his integrity, merely suggesting that we should change manager is adequate.  IMO, Mowbray was on the football manager's scrapheap.  If I was in his position, I wouldn't be able to believe my luck in getting such a post at Rovers with a CEO now in charge who he possibly regards as a friend.  As far as I can see, Mowbray almost has free reign and does not appear under any great pressure.  Four years into his tenure, I think we are a long, long way from the PL.  I think Mowbray's journey might be never ending.  I think he is in a comfortable and highly paid job.  Good luck to him as he increases his financial security for wife and family - who wouldn't do the same.  Responsibility for this situation has to lie with Waggott and the owners. 

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, AllRoverAsia said:

I tend to agree with you.

What is an e-sports team?

However, there is more chance of Little Timmy never knowing that a football is round and continuing to shoot people in an online 'game'

E-Sports is like gaming. Not something I'm particularly into but it's got a lot of investment and a lot of potential to become a big world sport with younger generations flocking to it. Almost every Premier League side has an E-Sports team for FIFA for example, playing in the ePremierLeague - several EFL clubs have eSports teams too, but not Rovers. 

When Bradley Dack streamed on Twitch at the beginning of lockdown last year on the game FIFA, 5k people watched - which is more than double the watch figures for our games on iFollow.

[AllRoverAsia]

46 minutes ago, JoeH said:

E-Sports is like gaming. Not something I'm particularly into but it's got a lot of investment and a lot of potential to become a big world sport with younger generations flocking to it. Almost every Premier League side has an E-Sports team for FIFA for example, playing in the ePremierLeague - several EFL clubs have eSports teams too, but not Rovers. 

When Bradley Dack streamed on Twitch at the beginning of lockdown last year on the game FIFA, 5k people watched - which is more than double the watch figures for our games on iFollow.

Thanks for the explanation.

Not something for me but I can see the merits if it's monetised to the club's advantage and can't be hacked, unlike iFollow.

Maybe why bother with any team with expensive and injury prone humans, there has to be an algorithm to handle team management. 

Things to Come in our Brave New World.

Most of all I feel sorry for today's youngsters with anything approaching that a possibility.

Kicking an empty bean can still seems like more fun which is how I discovered the beautiful game.

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by AllRoverAsia

[darrenrover]

On 14/01/2021 at 13:40, Herbie6590 said:

Left field suggestion....make watching football flexible. A mix of live & TV viewing which can be consumed as the individual fan sees fit for a subscription. No annual renewal date, continuous direct debit. Like a mobile phone contract. The subscription buys “x” number of credits each month which are consumed in whatever way at different tariffs. Like a mobile phone....texts at one price, calls at another....data at another & so on.

Have categories for TV viewing, sole attendance in person, collective attendance in person priced in such a way that attending in person with kids is the most attractive....TV is always an option but not cheaper than in person attendance except say for over 65s....

I’ve not thought this through in depth as you can see...but...over to you to tell me how it can be improved....🙂

😉😃👍🤞🤞🙏🙌🙌,🙌🙌🙌,🙌🙌🙌🙌  ROVERS!!!"

WE ARE THE ROVERS!!!

[Mattyblue]

I’ve always thought watching other people play computer games is one of the most boring pastimes known to man... yet with YouTube channels and e-sports it’s one of the biggest growth industries out there.

The modern world seems a perplexing place to me, Christ knows what those in their 80s must think 

[Ossydave]

I'll be back in the ground, regardless of price but only when there's a degree of normality. Not interested in being part of a say 2k crowd if restrictions are in place, nor am I interested in a scenario where we can't have a pint with our pals in the concourse. The social aspect heavily influences my decision though and people going purely for the football will no doubt think twice.

[Gav]

1 hour ago, Ossydave said:

I'll be back in the ground, regardless of price but only when there's a degree of normality. Not interested in being part of a say 2k crowd if restrictions are in place, nor am I interested in a scenario where we can't have a pint with our pals in the concourse. The social aspect heavily influences my decision though and people going purely for the football will no doubt think twice.

Spot on and you'll be joined by thousands more feeling exactly the same way Ossy.

Its not a difficult concept to understand, you improve the product on the pitch and you fill the stands, its been that way since time immemorial, Blackburn Rovers are no different as we've seen throughout our lifetimes. If we maintain our current position gates will stay the same, we have a hardcore of support, always have had always will have.

I never give the CEO/Chairman a second thought, I don't have any interest in what deals he's putting in place or how much season tickets are, I just go to games when I can, its in the blood, thats how it works. 

The elephants in the room at sat in Pune, they do deserve consideration because they're idiots who have destroyed a legacy, you never know what they'll do next.

[Mattyblue]

It’s in your blood, Gav. It’s in mine, I’ll be there regardless. But many aren’t like us, they go out of habit and can often take it or leave it - the habit is now broken.

If prices go up again (getting towards 500 quid, even more in the JW) alongside a recession, a still rumbling health crisis and 18 months out of the ground and we won’t be close to selling 8/9,000 STs which is what we need for ‘gates to stay the same’.

Waggott’s decisions over the next few months (if he’s the one actually making them) are therefore vitally important for the future of this club and I can only hope he finally gets to grip with the Rovers fanbase and the demographics of the area, because he hasn’t looked remotely interested in doing so thus far...

[Stuart]

2 hours ago, Mattyblue said:

I’ve always thought watching other people play computer games is one of the most boring pastimes known to man... yet with YouTube channels and e-sports it’s one of the biggest growth industries out there.

The modern world seems a perplexing place to me, Christ knows what those in their 80s must think 

My wife says the same whenever I watch the snooker.

[Stuart]

1 hour ago, Ossydave said:

I'll be back in the ground, regardless of price but only when there's a degree of normality. Not interested in being part of a say 2k crowd if restrictions are in place, nor am I interested in a scenario where we can't have a pint with our pals in the concourse. The social aspect heavily influences my decision though and people going purely for the football will no doubt think twice.

That’s exactly what live football is about. 50% of the experience is what happens on the pitch and 50% is who you are watching with (and 0% politics - but that’s another debate). Does a goal matter as much if you can’t celebrate like an idiot with your family or mates?

To survive (let alone be successful) without the TV revenue that PL clubs ‘enjoy’ (like drug-dependent addicts ‘enjoy’ opiate)  we need those fair-weather hangers on. There just aren’t the numbers of died-in-the-wool fans like there used to be. These floating fans want to be entertained and care about value for money in a way that the hardcore don’t. Mowbray isn’t delivering the former and Waggott isn’t delivering that latter - quite the opposite. If anything the hardcore are being asked to keep digging deeper and deeper and forgive more and more in order to be a committed fan. This is the line coming out of the club.

And while we have this entrenchment by the club, pretending all is well and that there is nothing more they can do, nothing is going to change.

Embrace the lifeblood (there has been zero reward or incentive for long-standing loyalty under Venkys - unwavering support is taken for granted) and grow the club with innovative and imaginative offers to get bums on seats.

[Gav]

22 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

It’s in your blood, Gav. It’s in mine, I’ll be there regardless. But many aren’t like us, they go out of habit and can often take it or leave it - the habit is now broken.

If prices go up again (getting towards 500 quid, even more in the JW) alongside a recession, a still rumbling health crisis and 18 months out of the ground and we won’t be close to selling 8/9,000 STs which is what we need for ‘gates to stay the same’.

Waggott’s decisions over the next few months (if he’s the one actually making them) are therefore vitally important for the future of this club and I can only hope he finally gets to grip with the Rovers fanbase and the demographics of the area, because he hasn’t looked remotely interested in doing so thus far...

The gates don't support the assertion Matty.

You put Blackburn Rovers mid table Premiership next season and we'd have 15-17k locals through the turnstiles week in week out.

We remain mid table championship and you'll see 10-14k - I believe we have a hardcore of 8k who will continue to go even if they had to kiss Waggotts backside on the way in.

Season ticket sales could drop, but its not hard to get a tickets, what Waggott does or does not do will not impact on these numbers on my opinion. 

 

[rigger]

1 minute ago, Gav said:

The gates don't support the assertion Matty.

You put Blackburn Rovers mid table Premiership next season and we'd have 15-17k locals through the turnstiles week in week out.

We remain mid table championship and you'll see 10-14k - I believe we have a hardcore of 8k who will continue to go even if they had to kiss Waggotts backside on the way in.

Season ticket sales could drop, but its not hard to get a tickets, what Waggott does or does not do will not impact on these numbers on my opinion. 

 

If we remain mid table championship, playing the way we are, you may see official figures of 10-14K, but I bet the actual attendances will be a lot less.

[Mattyblue]

Just now, Gav said:

The gates don't support the assertion Matty.

You put Blackburn Rovers mid table Premiership next season and we'd have 15-17k locals through the turnstiles week in week out.

We remain mid table championship and you'll see 10-14k - I believe we have a hardcore of 8k who will continue to go even if they had to kiss Waggotts backside on the way in.

Season ticket sales could drop, but its not hard to get a tickets, what Waggott does or does not do will not impact on these numbers on my opinion. 

 

PL is a totally different issue, of course that would get folk through the turnstiles, but promotion is for the birds with this set up, so that’s not the crux of my view

We don’t sell many walk on tickets, our gates are heavily made up of season ticket holders. If season ticket sales fall, gates fall. If Waggott puts prices up, that drop is more likely, so don’t get your reasoning that what he does doesn’t impact it?

If you think we’ll still sell 8/9k season tickets next time at near £500 a pop in this unique environment of 18 months away, habits broken, pandemic, recession and a poor on pitch product, then fair enough, we won’t know until the time comes. But I desperately hope you are right.

 

[Gav]

11 minutes ago, Mattyblue said:

PL is a totally different issue, of course that would get folk through the turnstiles, but promotion is for the birds with this set up, so that’s not the crux of my view

We don’t sell many walk on tickets, our gates are heavily made up of season ticket holders. If season ticket sales fall, gates fall. If Waggott puts prices up, that drop is more likely, so don’t get your reasoning that what he does doesn’t impact it?

If you think we’ll still sell 8/9k season tickets next time at near £500 a pop in this unique environment of 18 months away, habits broken, pandemic, recession and a poor on pitch product, then fair enough, we won’t know until the time comes. But I desperately hope you are right.

 

I never mentioned selling 8/9k season tickets, I'm talking about fans through the gates, be it a mixture of weekly buying of tickets and season tickets.

Our season ticket numbers have dropped over recent years, our gates have not, your predication above hasn't happened so far and prices went up, I think?

If season ticket prices go up further, people will buy weekly, we have a hardcore support, they will always come through the gates in my opinion.

[Mattyblue]

But overall crowds will reduce if STs do, that’s how it works here, i’m a geek with this kind of thing and I’ve tracked it for years. We do not see an uptick in walk-ons to offset drops in STs. We still sell 2/3k match tickets, but with fewer ST holders beside them.

In 2008 we had 20,000 ST holders and 3k walk ons. Last season we had around 8.5k ST holders... with around 3k walk-ons.

Our season tickets fell massively in 2012, as did gates. They then stayed fairly steady until the Coyle season, sales then fell again, so as a consequence so did gates that year. ST sales have improved slightly since, as have gates. It is how it works at Ewood and has since the 90s.

Unfortunately your last paragraph isn’t the case, fans who stop buying STs, in contrast to those that always pick and choose games, tend to disappear once they don’t renew.

[rigger]

4 minutes ago, Gav said:

I never mentioned selling 8/9k season tickets, I'm talking about fans through the gates, be it a mixture of weekly buying of tickets and season tickets.

Our season ticket numbers have dropped over recent years, our gates have not, your predication above hasn't happened so far and prices went up, I think?

If season ticket prices go up further, people will buy weekly, we have a hardcore support, they will always come through the gates in my opinion.

I think you may be wrong about the gates not dropping. The official attendances may not have dropped, but I would suggest that the number of people who are actually on the ground has dropped. The hardcore as you call it, will and is dwindling, due to ageing, health, and financial issues. But this is only my opinion, no proof.    

[Stuart]

1 minute ago, Gav said:

I never mentioned selling 8/9k season tickets, I'm talking about fans through the gates, be it a mixture of weekly buying of tickets and season tickets.

Our season ticket numbers have dropped over recent years, our gates have not, your predication above hasn't happened so far and prices went up, I think?

If season ticket prices go up further, people will buy weekly, we have a hardcore support, they will always come through the gates in my opinion.

Based on the evidence to date, demographics and age/mortality I think your hardcore support numbers are overestimated.

We have 2,500 hardcore right now, while the ST numbers will go up based on the family multiplier effect. Our household has three long-term season ticket holders, no season pass holders and one active iFollow account.

Going back next season depends on a number of factors. In no particular order:

- Football

- Restrictions on who I am allowed to sit with

- Restrictions on where I am allowed to sit (we may have the curiosity of certain stands being full and fans shifted)

- Restrictions on if and how I can watch, interact, celebrate, enjoy

- Price

- Whether I think I’m being taken the piss out of

I’m a long standing supporter who has stuck by all the was through this Venkyrrhoea but have never considered myself a die hard. I’d like to think of myself as Tier 2 (if hardcore is Tier 1). If I’m wobbling then Tier 3 is a non-starter and Tier 4 (growth) a pipe dream. 

 

[Mattyblue]

Depends how you define ‘die hard’.

There’s fans that go every week and a few away games, but don’t really give the club much thought outside a match day.

Then there those like many on here, may not go every week or ever to away matches, but spend far too much time discussing all things BRFC seven days a week!

(Or those beyond help that do both, like me!)

[JPTSwindon]

This is a tricky one...

I live in Swindon now, so would only normally watch one or two home games (family visits), but during lockdown I’ve paid £10 for every matches the club has gained.

However would that be overwhelmed by those who would normally attend switching to £10 online? In which case they would need to cut admission prices or increase iFollow costs? Also, what about families - multiple tickets versus a single £10.

Also, I like live football so I normally would choose watching Swindon Supermarine live Sat 3pm, that TV - but would smaller clubs (Accrington, Chorley, hey us to Man Utd, Liverpool etc) lose fans with 3pm TV/Digital matches.

Personally I’d like to see admission prices reduced, with TV income making up the shortfall.

[Gav]

1 hour ago, Mattyblue said:

But overall crowds will reduce if STs do, that’s how it works here, i’m a geek with this kind of thing and I’ve tracked it for years. We do not see an uptick in walk-ons to offset drops in STs. We still sell 2/3k match tickets, but with fewer ST holders beside them.

Lets forget the premiership seasons, they're long gone, no basis whatsoever on future attendance discussions unless we get back there.

Lets talk abut the past 3/4 seasons, season ticket numbers have declined we are led to believe, gates have stayed more or less the same, give or take.

This assertion that gates will drop if season tickets sales drop simply isn't born out by the facts as we have them Matty.

We had extremely poor season ticket sales in 80's for the most part, gates stayed the same, 8000 regulars, 12,000 on a good day, promotion campaign.

Its always been the same and will continue to be so in my humble opinion.