24th January 2021 Middlesbrough Away 15:00

[roversfan99]

Quite a few of the central midfielders (Travis, Trybull, Davenport, Johnson, Evans) are quite defensive so they could play in a 2 deeper and give secondary protection to a flaky defence whilst allowing us to have a secondary striker in Dack supporting Armstrong, they will get goals.

433 maybe suits Holtby and Rothwell but neither are consistent or dominating enough to warrant sidelining Dack.

The problem is that people think it has to be direct when playing 4231 and it doesnt. The main reason that Armstrong has scored in the last year is not the absence of Dack, it is being central.

[Wegerleswiggle]

Expecting this to be Mowbray's last game. Short walk home for him. 

[DeeCee]

11 minutes ago, Wegerleswiggle said:

Expecting this to be Mowbray's last game. Short walk home for him. 

Have you any evidence/insight to support this?

[Guest]

12 hours ago, K-Hod said:

I think this is a prime example of people forgetting the impact Dack has had since joining us. Elliott isn’t even our player, Armstrong is out of form and we need to get Bradley Dack back to his best. 
If the system that used to work much better than the current one gets the best out of him, then that’s what we need to go back to....

Far from. I know exactly what Bradley Dack brings, but our best players are the players who are scoring and playing well NOW, not the ones who are still far from match sharpness and fitness who don't have a suitable role in the system.

[Crimpshrine]

1 minute ago, DeeCee said:

Have you any evidence/insight to support this?

It's well known that he still lives in Smoggy land.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Crimpshrine said:

The argument that Dack is 'not ready' will continue ad infinitum if he doesn't play. If it is a valid argument then it would also apply to Travis who has looked woefully off the pace so far.  

On the other hand, if they have been rushed back too quickly then that is down to the manager who seems to have a habit of letting the players decide themselves if they are ready or not.

Travis' "off the pace"ness and Dack's are worlds apart. Trav at 70% is still our best defensive midfielder - Dack looked poor against a League One outfit in the cup - he's not ready to play full games at all.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I would like to know which players 433 specifically suits. There is nothing to suggest that Armstrong would be any less effective still as the central striker but with Dack supporting him. 

I think there's a lot of evidence that Adam Armstrong scores goals in a 4-3-3... just look at his career goal stats in a 4-3-3 vs his career goal stats in any other formation, across every club he's played for.

[DeeCee]

2 minutes ago, Crimpshrine said:

It's well known that he still lives in Smoggy land.

Hardly a convincing reason to think he's going after this game though is it, Holtby lives in Germany........

[Crimpshrine]

11 hours ago, JoeH said:

Travis' "off the pace"ness and Dack's are worlds apart. Trav at 70% is still our best defensive midfielder - Dack looked poor against a League One outfit in the cup - he's not ready to play full games at all.

I admire Travis' commitment and enthusiasm in the tackle but I think he is very much overrated. I think he is always suspect in a defensive situation and offers little in the way of creativity. Travis' energy is great but I think Davenport looks a more rounded and more influential player at the moment.

Edited January 23, 2021 by Crimpshrine
spelling

[Crimpshrine]

3 minutes ago, DeeCee said:

Hardly a convincing reason to think he's going after this game though is it, Holtby lives in Germany........

I was referring to the short walk home!!

[roversfan99]

12 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Far from. I know exactly what Bradley Dack brings, but our best players are the players who are scoring and playing well NOW, not the ones who are still far from match sharpness and fitness who don't have a suitable role in the system.

 

11 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Travis' "off the pace"ness and Dack's are worlds apart. Trav at 70% is still our best defensive midfielder - Dack looked poor against a League One outfit in the cup - he's not ready to play full games at all.

 

10 minutes ago, JoeH said:

I think there's a lot of evidence that Adam Armstrong scores goals in a 4-3-3... just look at his career goal stats in a 4-3-3 vs his career goal stats in any other formation, across every club he's played for.

Its a very short term view to discount Dack simply because he isnt back to his best yet. And I would also disagree that Travis at current fitness is any more effective, he has been really poor since he came back, poor on the ball, heavy touches and not effective as a shield. Both will require a couple more games, but both are key so we have little choice but to be patient such is their importance. You choose Holtby over Dack, he has been ineffective basically all season.

I might be wrong but when he scored those goals at Coventry, they had Maddison and Joe Cole so they probably did use a 10. But ultimately it is irrelevant. The 433 has not led to improved results so it shouldnt be beyond reproach. 4231 with Elliott right and Armstrong as the striker has never been tested but in theory those 3 could thrive in such a system, we would have secondary cover in front of our defence and it just generally seems to suit us better, and with recent form and overall results the manager should be willing to change, all he seems to do is constantly alternatate between formations desperate for something to stick, 433 then to more nonsensical crap like false 9s, box midfields etc. I feel like we need more clarity, more consistency and I think 4231 as a formation best suits our players.

Elliott would be in theory unaffected playing in a 4231 or a 433 as long as he plays wide right and not in central midfield or as a false 9 which hinders him. Playing with Dack I suspect would benefit both. And Armstrong would probably himself benefit further from having Dack in closer support and sliding him in.

Even if there was a conclusion that Armstrong is somehow compromised by putting Dack behind him, the slight compromise would surely be more than compensated by Dacks return and additional quality.

You say our best players who are playing well now, that is very few players. Armstrong is obviously key and Elliott is a great talent but even both of them have dipped in form with Mowbrays constant confusion not helping.

 

Edited January 23, 2021 by roversfan99

[DeeCee]

.

1 minute ago, Crimpshrine said:

I was referring to the short walk home!!

😁 Yeah got you,👍 it was the first bit I was referring to.

[Wegerleswiggle]

2 hours ago, DeeCee said:

Have you any evidence/insight to support this?

Unfortunately not. Just a hunch

[DeeCee]

3 hours ago, Wegerleswiggle said:

Unfortunately not. Just a hunch

Yeah, I got one on my back, hope your right.

[philipl]

7 hours ago, JoeH said:

Travis' "off the pace"ness and Dack's are worlds apart. Trav at 70% is still our best defensive midfielder - Dack looked poor against a League One outfit in the cup - he's not ready to play full games at all.

The utter disorganisation and managerial insouciance of the Doncaster game meant Dack would still not have received a decent pass if the game were still being played now...

Mowbray hasn't got the first clue how to fit Dack in with the other players at his disposal.

[philipl]

9 points off 6th and now an inferior goal difference as well.

This is a must win game for play off dreams- I won't use the word hopes as we all know Mowbray is hopeless.

If we look at the respective teams and squads, this should at worst be a 50/50 game. 

When we look at the respective managers and their motivations, the odds switch to 99/1 in Middlesbrough's favour.

We might well play decently but this is going to be a deeply depressing Sunday evening.

[chaddyrovers]

13 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I would like to know which players 433 specifically suits. There is nothing to suggest that Armstrong would be any less effective still as the central striker but with Dack supporting him. 

Armstrong, Elliott, Brereton, Rothwell. 

 

11 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I

He certainly is one of our best players but I still dont see the desire to stick with the 433. It hasnt improved us and a fairly small change allows Dack to play in his natural position behind Armstrong.

Dack played in a 3 man midfield at Gillingham team  so saying his natural position has as 10 is just plain wrom

10 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Quite a few of the central midfielders (Travis, Trybull, Davenport, Johnson, Evans) are quite defensive so they could play in a 2 deeper and give secondary protection to a flaky defence whilst allowing us to have a secondary striker in Dack supporting Armstrong, they will get goals.

433 maybe suits Holtby and Rothwell but neither are consistent or dominating enough to warrant sidelining Dack.

The problem is that people think it has to be direct when playing 4231 and it doesnt. The main reason that Armstrong has scored in the last year is not the absence of Dack, it is being central.

Yes Armstrong scored so many as The main striker but he was Rovers main man and played as main striker but their goals came in 4-3-3

[chaddyrovers]

                    Kaminski 

Nyambe Lenihan Branthwaite Douglas 

           Travis Davenport Holtby 

          Brereton Armstrong Elliott 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

1 hour ago, philipl said:

9 points off 6th and now an inferior goal difference as well.

This is a must win game for play off dreams- I won't use the word hopes as we all know Mowbray is hopeless.

If we look at the respective teams and squads, this should at worst be a 50/50 game. 

When we look at the respective managers and their motivations, the odds switch to 99/1 in Middlesbrough's favour.

We might well play decently but this is going to be a deeply depressing Sunday evening.

It's over for this season  Phillip. Once you accept that as a fact life becomes much less stressful. I'll be more happy when we get to 50 points though.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

10 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Quite a few of the central midfielders (Travis, Trybull, Davenport, Johnson, Evans) are quite defensive so they could play in a 2 deeper and give secondary protection to a flaky defence whilst allowing us to have a secondary striker in Dack supporting Armstrong, they will get goals.

433 maybe suits Holtby and Rothwell but neither are consistent or dominating enough to warrant sidelining Dack.

The problem is that people think it has to be direct when playing 4231 and it doesnt. The main reason that Armstrong has scored in the last year is not the absence of Dack, it is being central.

You could play four defensive midfielders if you like  but if none of them get over the half way line you'll always concede eventually because the ball will be in your half most of the time.

[Blue blood]

So let's get this straight - 4 years later after innumerable (ok 8 😎 windows), a healthy amount spent and no forced departures we still have no idea what the best formation is for our team? Doesn't that say everything about TM's tenure and why he has to go? 

 

Edit no idea how the emoji got there or why it won't allow me to delete it...

Edited January 23, 2021 by Blue blood

[Sparks Rover]

42 minutes ago, Blue blood said:

Edit no idea how the emoji got there or why it won't allow me to delete it...

It's like a typed out Freudian slip.👍

Edited January 23, 2021 by Sparks Rover

[LDRover]

12 hours ago, Crimpshrine said:

I admire Travis' commitment and enthusiasm in the tackle but I think he is very much overrated. I think he is always suspect in a defensive situation and offers little in the way of creativity. Travis' energy is great but I think Davenport looks a more rounded and more influential player at the moment.

Totally agree with you. Combative and nasty? Yes. Positionally sound and creative? No.

I think he has flattered over his time so far because he isn't afraid to put a foot in and gets about the pitch but, for me, there's not much else to talk about.

[toogs]

4 hours ago, philipl said:

The utter disorganisation and managerial insouciance of the Doncaster game meant Dack would still not have received a decent pass if the game were still being played now...

Mowbray hasn't got the first clue how to fit Dack in with the other players at his disposal.

I think Dack misses someone to play football with. Danny Graham’s impact playing with him is underated I think. 

[Ulrich]

5 hours ago, philipl said:

The utter disorganisation and managerial insouciance of the Doncaster game meant Dack would still not have received a decent pass if the game were still being played now...

Mowbray hasn't got the first clue how to fit Dack in with the other players at his disposal.

Insouciance, what a great word.