Brockhall STC - planning permission application ?

[tonygreenbank]

7 minutes ago, J*B said:

Joe, I mean this will all due respect, but Jack’s legacy isn’t Rovers winning the league. I would assume you’re too young to really remember what Jack did?

Jacks legacy is putting Blackburn on the map. It’s giving the fans pride in the club. It’s the commentators on TV saying “the most successful town football club in the world”. It’s giving local kids the opportunity to train at a superb academy and maybe one day, represent their town. They don’t necessarily need to be stars at Blackburn Rovers. Its about the soccer schools for local kids. The disability groups for local people. The women’s team, who are treated just like the men’s. 
It’s creating jobs and opportunities for local people - whether that be at the academy on reception, or the chippy on Bolton Road which makes a fortune on match day. Jack’s legacy on the pitch is about challenging the big boys, creating a mentality of managers, coaches and players proud to represent Blackburn and it’s people. Blackburn Rovers will never be Manchester United - but Jack’s motto was “think big” and there’s absolutely nothing to say, for 90 minutes, 11 men representing the town of Blackburn cannot defeat 11 men playing for Manchester United. 

Jack’s legacy is for the town, its bigger than the football club. 

I agree with what you are saying about      Jack Walker and the town and how much pride we all felt in the Golden 90’s but two thoughts spring to mind. 
Firstly, the Walker family were not slow themselves in undermining his legacy by selling the club to Venky’s and secondly, if we are £196 million in debt then perhaps a chance for our owners to make £50/60 million by selling some part of the Brockhall facility to maintain our very existence as a football club should  at least be considered as long as it doesn’t impact massively on the playing side.

 

[Miller11]

17 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Very fair point. I would definitely like to know though, in your personal opinion... 

At what stage are the owners of the club able to make decisions that perhaps Jack Walker wouldn’t have made without being deemed disrespectful?

In 100 years time, would it still be a disrespectful move to merge the training centres (or another comparable club decision)?

Or are Jack’s wishes for you, and for others, ultimate now and final?

(Genuine questions, hope nobody will take offence).

Fair question Joe... my opinion, for what it’s worth...

For me Jack’s legacy goes beyond the fixtures and fittings. Yes, the stadium and training ground are part of it, but the intangibles are overlooked.

People talk about how we have now “found our level” due to where we were league position wise in the 70s and 80s. I disagree. Jack coming in, modernising the ground, creating Brockhall, and putting us amongst the big boys later a foundation that allowed us to remain a competitive Premier league outfit after he passed away. We were so well run that we were highlighted in parliament as being the ideal model in terms of how a club should be run; Manageable debt levels, when we made a loss it could be offset with a player sale, and modest investment from the trust occasionally. We were one TV deal away from realising Jack’s vision of being self sufficient.

This is a massive part of his legacy that has been wrecked by Venky’s. And it’s not a case of natural order being restored, or us finding our level. I like the analogy of a lottery win - Jack coming along was like your numbers coming up. It gave us a platform for the future. It took Venky’s mere months to piss it all away.

 

[K-Hod]

27 minutes ago, AllRoverAsia said:

I never have, never will.

Well, either that of private messaging a mod is the way we want people to do things, to avoid threads being taken off topic. I’ve explained this before, but it clearly bears repeating....

We get emails notifying us when posts are reported, or get a private message, so that gets us to the issue quickly, so we don’t have to trawl through threads where there can be endless bickering at times.

Example, I’ve been working today, JB was out with his dog and all the mods have lives away from here too. 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, J*B said:

You don’t have to build on it. You can’t build on being the best team in the country. You need to maintain it. It’s the values that are important. We could finish 12th in League One and still maintain the majority of the values. 

Which values would you say are the most important? Or perhaps a better question from me would be, which values are we not maintaining that we should be?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Miller11 said:

Fair question Joe... my opinion, for what it’s worth...

For me Jack’s legacy goes beyond the fixtures and fittings. Yes, the stadium and training ground are part of it, but the intangibles are overlooked.

People talk about how we have now “found our level” due to where we were league position wise in the 70s and 80s. I disagree. Jack coming in, modernising the ground, creating Brockhall, and putting us amongst the big boys later a foundation that allowed us to remain a competitive Premier league outfit after he passed away. We were so well run that we were highlighted in parliament as being the ideal model in terms of how a club should be run; Manageable debt levels, when we made a loss it could be offset with a player sale, and modest investment from the trust occasionally. We were one TV deal away from realising Jack’s vision of being self sufficient.

This is a massive part of his legacy that has been wrecked by Venky’s. And it’s not a case of natural order being restored, or us finding our level. I like the analogy of a lottery win - Jack coming along was like your numbers coming up. It gave us a platform for the future. It took Venky’s mere months to piss it all away.

 

So in reality, with what you’ve said there being what I perceive to be a fair reflection of events also, it’s probably going to have to be new owners in the future who would ever be able to build those bridges for you?

[J*B]

1 minute ago, JoeH said:

Which values would you say are the most important? Or perhaps a better question from me would be, which values are we not maintaining that we should be?

I’ll turn this one around to you - as it stands, are you proud of Blackburn Rovers?
Before you answer, this includes: the performances on the pitch, the way staff talk in the media, the rapport between the fans, the performance of the academy and the future of it, the way the fans are treated by the club, the respect shown to the badge and the people of Blackburn. 

[bluebruce]

58 minutes ago, den9112 said:

Coventry City fans had a simalar issue with one of their training grounds when Mark Venus was (caretaker) manager and he was involved with Dedham vale homes ltd, that company was disloved a few years ago,maybe all a big coincidence but to have a simalar issue here at Rovers make of that as you will ....

Stinks to the high heavens that one, and a recurrence of the notion here stinks even more. How was that kind of conflict of interest not illegal?

[Mattyblue]

Exactly that J*B, and I’ll add in the state of Ewood Park, the downscaling/closing across the patch and on it goes - but surely the Academy is the one unqualified success we do have? It’s a minor miracle considering how inept the rest of the club is...

Edited February 21, 2021 by Mattyblue

[perthblue02]

21 minutes ago, tonygreenbank said:

I agree with what you are saying about      Jack Walker and the town and how much pride we all felt in the Golden 90’s but two thoughts spring to mind. 
Firstly, the Walker family were not slow themselves in undermining his legacy by selling the club to Venky’s and secondly, if we are £196 million in debt then perhaps a chance for our owners to make £50/60 million by selling some part of the Brockhall facility to maintain our very existence as a football club should  at least be considered as long as it doesn’t impact massively on the playing side.

 

Rovers will not get anything like 50/60 million for the land, that is a number thrown about taking into account the value from selling all the houses that are built.

Unless Rovers are going into the construction industry , Rovers will be lucky to get a Quarter to a  third of that. Depending what it costs to rebuild the new combined facility, any remaining will probably just about cover losses for one season at current levels  if we are lucky.

Edited February 21, 2021 by perthblue02

[Miller11]

1 minute ago, JoeH said:

So in reality, with what you’ve said there being what I perceive to be a fair reflection of events also, it’s probably going to have to be new owners in the future who would ever be able to build those bridges for you?

In all honesty, probably.

It’s not an impossible task by any means, but I don’t see Venky’s as being capable, or having the desire to “put things right”. 

[Mattyblue]

Just now, Miller11 said:

In all honesty, probably.

It’s not an impossible task by any means, but I don’t see Venky’s as being capable, or having the desire to “put things right”. 

They still could by employing quality people throughout the club who could begin to pull the club up by its bootstraps - but as you say I see little appetite in them to do that.

[tomphil]

36 minutes ago, Herbie6590 said:

When Venky’s build on (metaphorically...not literally) Jack’s legacy then they can be said to be taking the club forward.

There is not one single objective metric of import that is better now than the day they took over. 
 

If they were selling Brockhall entirely to build a bigger facility in another location as they recognised the importance of growing your own talent and each pitch was say, to have undersoil heating or be on rollers (like at Spurs stadium) to ensure that we always had a pitch available to use, then I think the fans would be more forgiving of that kind of proposal. 

Again...this is not progress....this is cash raising because of Covid.
 

I was just going to say something similar. if they were buying some cheap land in the area and intent on building a state of the art one size fits all facility there'd still be uproar but that would be temper by the sense behind it.

That would be a bold ambitious thing to do and provide more great infrastructure to the club. However they can't even keep the ground clean even before any lockdowns. They've scrimped on the pitch for ten years and the riverside is still the 1990 version.

Throw in they've never even remotely recruited nor backed any manager of any pedigree despite saying the Prem is the aim.

Yet a cobbled together statement clearly a spin job Alistar Campbell would be proud of and half the fans are all over it. Great deflection from the real issues on the pitch though !

[Proudtobeblue&white]

1 minute ago, Miller11 said:

In all honesty, probably.

It’s not an impossible task by any means, but I don’t see Venky’s as being capable, or having the desire to “put things right”. 

They have shown no motivation since the dark lord fucked it all up, ten years and counting.......

[Herbie6590]

If Venky’s wanted to make a statement, they could upgrade/refurbish Ewood/Brockhall with their own cash with no FFP implications.

This strikes me as Waggott coming up with a wizard wheeze to improve cash flow. Is he targeted on that metric I wonder ?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, J*B said:

I’ll turn this one around to you - as it stands, are you proud of Blackburn Rovers?
Before you answer, this includes: the performances on the pitch, the way staff talk in the media, the rapport between the fans, the performance of the academy and the future of it, the way the fans are treated by the club, the respect shown to the badge and the people of Blackburn. 

Yes.

Apologies to those that this answer offends. Are there issues? Yes. But every club has different issues. I still think we do A LOT right. I’m not putting the praise for everything we do right onto the owners either, because most that we get right isn’t really their doing.

Just touch on a few things, which I’d say are huge but aren’t necessarily a result of the owners:

The BRFC Community Trust and all the trimmings. Our players values and young players rapport with the fans. Local youth recruitment is still nice and prevalent, only have to look to players like John Buckley who’ve been here since aged 6. Girls youth development in the North of England? Look no further than Blackburn Rovers. Took over the GDC from the Lancashire FA and are a shining light in the country, let alone the area, for girls football development. The senior women’s side are also now slowly making their way up, and the club had been unlucky with political decisions from the WSL in the past. Charity and local groups have also seen continued time and financial investment from the club, and I think there’s certainly still many a local business benefitting from our club too.

Up until quite recently I’d have said I was proud of the way our staff talked in the media too, but TM comments after games in recent weeks have angered.

[tomphil]

18 minutes ago, tonygreenbank said:

I agree with what you are saying about      Jack Walker and the town and how much pride we all felt in the Golden 90’s but two thoughts spring to mind. 
Firstly, the Walker family were not slow themselves in undermining his legacy by selling the club to Venky’s and secondly, if we are £196 million in debt then perhaps a chance for our owners to make £50/60 million by selling some part of the Brockhall facility to maintain our very existence as a football club should  at least be considered as long as it doesn’t impact massively on the playing side.

 

If they wanted to plug a hole they'd sell a player it happened before, it's the people in the middle driving this that are the main cause of concern.

Waggots mantra isn't expand or think big it's first squeeze what you have as much as you can.  Plus the several people now in situ who have form for trying similar at Coventry should set alarm bells ringing to even the most ardent Venky lover. This is how it all started at the likes of Bolton.

It isn't something that's even needed now the main issue is the management and the playing side. These lot are driving this to keep their jobs quite possibly.

ALL FOCUS SHOULD BE ON TRYING TO GET UP THAT LEAGUE !

[J*B]

6 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Yes.

Apologies to those that this answer offends. Are there issues? Yes. But every club has different issues. I still think we do A LOT right. I’m not putting the praise for everything we do right onto the owners either, because most that we get right isn’t really their doing.

Just touch on a few things, which I’d say are huge but aren’t necessarily a result of the owners:

The BRFC Community Trust and all the trimmings. Our players values and young players rapport with the fans. Local youth recruitment is still nice and prevalent, only have to look to players like John Buckley who’ve been here since aged 6. Girls youth development in the North of England? Look no further than Blackburn Rovers. Took over the GDC from the Lancashire FA and are a shining light in the country, let alone the area, for girls football development. The senior women’s side are also now slowly making their way up, and the club had been unlucky with political decisions from the WSL in the past. Charity and local groups have also seen continued time and financial investment from the club, and I think there’s certainly still many a local business benefitting from our club too.

Up until quite recently I’d have said I was proud of the way our staff talked in the media too, but TM comments after games in recent weeks have angered.

That’s great - I’m glad you’re proud. 
 

Sadly, I’m not. 
I feel like the performances on the pitch show a lack of effort. The manager of the club is in self preservation and is attacking the fans. The management of the club are reducing the capacity of our training facilities. The fans are in turmoil with this ridiculous “left vs right” debate which is centred around the manager. The fans are taken for granted by the club both financially but also in intelligence. The club has made redundancies which could have been avoided putting local people out of work. 
There are still plenty of plus points, as you say. We’ve had local, Rovers supporting kids join the ranks and play for their club. The U18s are flying. The women’s team hold their own and do the badge proud. The Community Trust do some brilliant work. 

Sadly, for me, the bad outweighs the good. That doesn’t respect the legacy that Jack created. 

[Herbie6590]

45 minutes ago, JoeH said:

What kind of things could they do, besides investment in players to change our league position, that could be deemed as building on his legacy?

Would it be fair to say it would be fairly impossible for them to build on a legacy? Or are there genuine things they could do right now that would be received as a building of legacy in that way?

1. Rebuild the Riverside

2. Refurb/renew the rest of Ewood & it’s environs

3. Invest in the ladies team

4. Buy a Brexit busting feeder club in RoI

5. Appoint a sales & marketing director 

6. Appoint someone to run merchandising & licensing

7. Appoint a fan liaison officer charged with building bridges with the community 

8. Give away Rovers shirts to every new born child in BwD (Google Atalanta)

9. Give Rovers shirts to every 10 year old child in BwD (Google Accrington Stanley)

10. Design innovative fan membership schemes to encourage attendance 

11. Issue a Fan Charter that says the club will run on ethical grounds - e.g. no gambling sponsorship, no vaping sponsorships - actively pursue commercial partnerships that are ethical/green

12. Change the floodlights to LED panels to allow pre-match entertainment options & demonstrate our green credentials

I just came up with those off the top of my head (yes, we know...they’re lame...) but there are folks out there that can do this stuff, that want the best for their club.

What we have is distant, remote owners and one of the lamest executive boards I’ve ever seen at Ewood.

Over to you...😉

 

[arbitro]

If the Venus theory is proven that will be akin to what Anderson did. 

I'm sick to death of people making lots of money out of my club whilst the product deteriorates. 

 

[Wheelton Blue]

Hypothetically.....what would people's opinion be if the club committed to reinvesting any profit from the sale of the STC into, say, a rebuild of the Riverside?

(I don't believe for one second anything like this would happen, btw)

[Miller11]

Just now, Wheelton Blue said:

Hypothetically.....what would people's opinion be if the club committed to reinvesting any profit from the sale of the STC into, say, a rebuild of the Riverside?

(I don't believe for one second anything like this would happen, btw)

I’d see it as a pretty pointless exercise. A Riverside rebuild might be nice, but it’s as far from necessary as it’s possible to be. And I am not in favour of downgrading or reducing our training facilities.

Also, I must admit I personally like the Riverside as it is.

 

[Mercer]

2 hours ago, den said:

I used to go down to the Pleasington playing fields to watch rovers train when Dalglish and Hartford were taking training.  speedie was still at Rovers.
That would be 91 or 92.
 

Happy days!

Recall the 'non performers' or 'those who wouldn't listen' being sent to run round Pleasington away from the 'training pitch'.

Kenny showed he still had it! 

[jim mk2]

17 minutes ago, arbitro said:

If the Venus theory is proven that will be akin to what Anderson did. 

I'm sick to death of people making lots of money out of my club whilst the product deteriorates. 

 

Agree except that Rovers isn't a "product". It's a club and vital part of the community and the town and people's lives. 

[den]

joeH talks about not being into legacies, but everything that’s happened to this club over the past 30 years has been down to one man. Everything you see now both at Ewood and Brockhall is down to one man. None of it would have happened if it weren’t for Jack Walker. If anyone ever deserved to have his legacy cherished, respected or held in the highest esteem, it’s Jack Walker.

He left us a piece of land in a beautiful part of the country. For me, at this moment Brockhall is this clubs Jewel in the crown. It lifts Blackburn Rovers profile way above all the other town teams in this area. It IS a big attraction. 
 

and this current mob who know nothing about Blackburn Rovers and it’s history, Blackburn Rovers fans or how respected Jack Walker and his legacies, want to build bloody houses on it.

Theyre just a bunch of Johnny - come - lately bastards in my eyes.

 

[JHRover]

37 minutes ago, Herbie6590 said:

If Venky’s wanted to make a statement, they could upgrade/refurbish Ewood/Brockhall with their own cash with no FFP implications.

This strikes me as Waggott coming up with a wizard wheeze to improve cash flow. Is he targeted on that metric I wonder ?

EVERYTHING that Waggott has done since he first darkened our door in late 2017 has been to try and eek out some extra money from what is already there.

I firmly believe that he only got the job because he persuaded the owners that he had the skill set to increase revenues and cut losses by X amount, which is why they agreed to employ him on his considerable wages.

He's shown no initiative, bright ideas nor has he delivered any improvement in attendances, atmosphere, facilities. 

This is his last big hurrah before retirement, great for him and his balance sheets but potentially devastating long term for Blackburn Rovers. Not that he will care, he'll never step foot in Blackburn again after his stint here is over.