Current Squad - Is it overrated?

[roversfan99]

Just wondering what people think to the overall state of our current squad. I see regularly that it is a top 6 squad grossly underperforming, I am not convinced. To clarify, this is not a defence of Mowbray, I acknowledge that his tactical inconsistencies further hinder the current group of players, and this is very much his squad of players in the first place.

Kaminski is a competent keeper with incompetent cover. Defensively, still a mess, the only 2 of any credibility are Lenihan and Nyambe, both of whom have a year left and Mowbray inherited. Beside that, we have the incompetent Bell, a loanee in Douglas who has improved recently, a couple of kids who arent ready on loan,  an expensive crock on a long term deal, Williams who has never been particularly good or reliable, and then wingers covering.

In midfield, we have signed so many, Johnson, Davenport, Rothwell, Holtby, Trybull, Downing etc, there may well be sone quality there but none have contributed to a point where we would really miss them if they left tomorrow. Travis is the only one and he himself is not one of the best in the league. 

In attack, we are solely reliant on Armstrong with the manager struggling to get the proven Dack back in regularly, and Elliott has been a very good loan. Aside from that, we have our 12m misfits and a raw kid. Not sure the squad is as good as people make out.

[Southside Rover]

Did you feel that way when Coventry, Derby and Wycombe were torn apart or right now following this dismal run? 2 to 3 months ago this team were the top scorers in the league with Armstrong toe to toe with Toney as top scorer which after 3 or 4 games fine, but so far into the season it showed this squad had real promise.

The last transfer window should have strengthened the gaps and with injuries returning it was looking up, plus the run of results where they showed they can grind out a result when not at it and nick a last minute winner like all th ebest teams can do.

I personally think the team has stopped playing for TM because like most fans they can see this opportunity going to waste.

[Bbrovers2288]

12 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Just wondering what people think to the overall state of our current squad. I see regularly that it is a top 6 squad grossly underperforming, I am not convinced. To clarify, this is not a defence of Mowbray, I acknowledge that his tactical inconsistencies further hinder the current group of players, and this is very much his squad of players in the first place.

Kaminski is a competent keeper with incompetent cover. Defensively, still a mess, the only 2 of any credibility are Lenihan and Nyambe, both of whom have a year left and Mowbray inherited. Beside that, we have the incompetent Bell, a loanee in Douglas who has improved recently, a couple of kids who arent ready on loan,  an expensive crock on a long term deal, Williams who has never been particularly good or reliable, and then wingers covering.

In midfield, we have signed so many, Johnson, Davenport, Rothwell, Holtby, Trybull, Downing etc, there may well be sone quality there but none have contributed to a point where we would really miss them if they left tomorrow. Travis is the only one and he himself is not one of the best in the league. 

In attack, we are solely reliant on Armstrong with the manager struggling to get the proven Dack back in regularly, and Elliott has been a very good loan. Aside from that, we have our 12m misfits and a raw kid. Not sure the squad is as good as people make out.

Kaminski- top 6 

nyambe- top half

lenihan- not good enough in my opinion, would happily sell

ayala- seems a mistake, too 6 in his day, not sure he will ever be physically able anymore

williams- not good enough

loan guys/ we shouldn’t be loaning centre backs, that’s a fault of management. Not ready 

bell- not championship

douglas- doesn’t suit us

Wharton- haven’t seen enough. Probably should have been blooded much sooner

holtby- not consistent, not fit, no good

johnson- too old now, not too 6

trybull- nope

evans- barely championship quality, not top 6

travis- top 6

dack- inconsistent, on his day top 6, needs to work hard to get back to where he was

downing- too old

chapman- not managed correctly 

Costello/- not seen enough

buckley/ lightweight, not top 6

gallagher- nope, poorly managed 

armstrong- top 6 but needs managed better to become less selfish and working on 1 v 1s to utilise his pace

rothwell- nope, has talent but doesn’t use it , would be a league 1 show pony 

Davenport- poorly managed, not top 6 on current viewing

elliot- shining light but not our player 

manager- league 1 

[Bbrovers2288]

1 minute ago, Bbrovers2288 said:

Kaminski- top 6 

nyambe- top half

lenihan- not good enough in my opinion, would happily sell

ayala- seems a mistake, too 6 in his day, not sure he will ever be physically able anymore

williams- not good enough

loan guys/ we shouldn’t be loaning centre backs, that’s a fault of management. Not ready 

bell- not championship

douglas- doesn’t suit us

Wharton- haven’t seen enough. Probably should have been blooded much sooner

holtby- not consistent, not fit, no good

johnson- too old now, not too 6

trybull- nope

evans- barely championship quality, not top 6

travis- top 6

dack- inconsistent, on his day top 6, needs to work hard to get back to where he was

downing- too old

chapman- not managed correctly 

Costello/- not seen enough

buckley/ lightweight, not top 6

gallagher- nope, poorly managed 

armstrong- top 6 but needs managed better to become less selfish and working on 1 v 1s to utilise his pace

rothwell- nope, has talent but doesn’t use it , would be a league 1 show pony 

Davenport- poorly managed, not top 6 on current viewing

elliot- shining light but not our player 

manager- league 1 

I forgot brereton- expensive mistake. Never too 6

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

If we're talking top six - yes definitely over rated. It's a completely unbalanced squad with a team full of midfield players and more than our fair share of injury prone players, especially in defence and midfield.

However we shouldn't be looking over our shoulders at the bottom six ! The squad at the moment is just a collection of players gathered together with no obvious coherent thought as to a system, plan, way of playing etc that I can see. The formation changes every week, as does the personnel. Teams with a system, even though they have inferior players,  will win out over of a collection of more talented individuals who don't know what they are doing 9 times out of 10.

[skous18]

9 minutes ago, Bbrovers2288 said:

Kaminski- top 6 

nyambe- top half

lenihan- not good enough in my opinion, would happily sell

ayala- seems a mistake, too 6 in his day, not sure he will ever be physically able anymore

williams- not good enough

loan guys/ we shouldn’t be loaning centre backs, that’s a fault of management. Not ready 

bell- not championship

douglas- doesn’t suit us

Wharton- haven’t seen enough. Probably should have been blooded much sooner

holtby- not consistent, not fit, no good

johnson- too old now, not too 6

trybull- nope

evans- barely championship quality, not top 6

travis- top 6

dack- inconsistent, on his day top 6, needs to work hard to get back to where he was

downing- too old

chapman- not managed correctly 

Costello/- not seen enough

buckley/ lightweight, not top 6

gallagher- nope, poorly managed 

armstrong- top 6 but needs managed better to become less selfish and working on 1 v 1s to utilise his pace

rothwell- nope, has talent but doesn’t use it , would be a league 1 show pony 

Davenport- poorly managed, not top 6 on current viewing

elliot- shining light but not our player 

manager- league 1 

Rothwell would most likely play in the Premier League for a decent manager who can get the best out of him, than be a league one show pony.

Top 6 its not so much about some amazing and world class footballers, its about managers who can organise their teams and players who can outperform the opponents.

Perhaps, Kaminski, Douglass, Ayala, Nyambe, Travis, Rothwell, Dack, Arma, Holtby and even Lenihan could all do a job in certain top 6 clubs.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

2 minutes ago, skous18 said:

Rothwell would most likely play in the Premier League for a decent manager who can get the best out of him, than be a league one show pony.

Top 6 its not so much about some amazing and world class footballers, its about managers who can organise their teams and players who can outperform the opponents.

Perhaps, Kaminski, Douglass, Ayala, Nyambe, Travis, Rothwell, Dack, Arma, Holtby and even Lenihan could all do a job in certain top 6 clubs.

If they're not in the treatment room ? A good half of those are injury prone/can't play 2 games in a week.

[Roverthechimp]

If TM was new then you could make a point for having inherited an unbalanced squad with injury prone players, expensive gambles and some on expensive contracts. After 4 years TM must take some (if not all) of the blame.

There is the basis of a top 6 squad, possibly top 2 but it still needs 2 or 3 solid defenders and a manager/coach that consistently gets the best out of what we have.

So to answer: yes top 6 given the squad and resources available

[roversfan99]

33 minutes ago, Southside Rover said:

Did you feel that way when Coventry, Derby and Wycombe were torn apart or right now following this dismal run? 2 to 3 months ago this team were the top scorers in the league with Armstrong toe to toe with Toney as top scorer which after 3 or 4 games fine, but so far into the season it showed this squad had real promise.

The last transfer window should have strengthened the gaps and with injuries returning it was looking up, plus the run of results where they showed they can grind out a result when not at it and nick a last minute winner like all th ebest teams can do.

I personally think the team has stopped playing for TM because like most fans they can see this opportunity going to waste.

They are the exceptions though. Derby were in crisis and Wycombe got a few beatings when they came up, the latter going down to 10 men, and Coventry went down to 10 men very early. The performances were still very impressive but they did skew peoples perception of our quality in the first few months.

[roversfan99]

12 minutes ago, skous18 said:

Rothwell would most likely play in the Premier League for a decent manager who can get the best out of him, than be a league one show pony.

Top 6 its not so much about some amazing and world class footballers, its about managers who can organise their teams and players who can outperform the opponents.

Perhaps, Kaminski, Douglass, Ayala, Nyambe, Travis, Rothwell, Dack, Arma, Holtby and even Lenihan could all do a job in certain top 6 clubs.

Rothwell and Premier League is a hell of a statement, this isnt a player who has ever hit those levels and is only now underachieving, this is a player whose best games are usually ones he doesnt feature in.

Ayala may have done 3 or 4 years ago but now he isnt fit enough to play and when he is, we lose more often than we win. Douglas again in the past and has improved in recent weeks, and even Nyambe is a level off the right backs of the top 6. Holtby has never displayed any signs of being a top 6 player in this league either, I think with him his reputation stemming from his younger years and potential he perhaps has never fulfilled fool us a bit. Even Travis, compare to Cook, Lerma, Pearson, Wilshire, Billing, Rupp, Skipp, Da Silva, Norgaard, Hourihane, Grimes, Will Hughes, Chalobah, Cleverley, Swift etc, not sure he is as good as. 

Just now, Roverthechimp said:

If TM was new then you could make a point for having inherited an unbalanced squad with injury prone players, expensive gambles and some on expensive contracts. After 4 years TM must take some (if not all) of the blame.

There is the basis of a top 6 squad, possibly top 2 but it still needs 2 or 3 solid defenders and a manager/coach that consistently gets the best out of what we have.

So to answer: yes top 6 given the squad and resources available

100% he is responsible for the squad he has assembled. I just feel that there is a slightly false perception of the quality of the players we have, and whether more than pure underachievement, the underperforming is down to the flaws in how the squad has been assembled in the first place. He cant moan about resources or time.

I personally think that to get us into the top 6 could be perceived as slightly overachieving. Then again, there are certainly managers that armed with a prolific goalscorer would certainly put us in with a shout, albeit with a lot more tactical consistency and simplicity.

[Southside Rover]

So perhaps all points against us at the moment don't count coz we are in a crisis? We could play that same match against Derby, Wycombe or Coventry now as they were and we'd draw at best.

My point is there was an energy, drive, passion, belief and above all a slickness that even in the closer games teams couldn't live with so yes top 6 was possible but all of that has gone so is it the squad or something else?

[Richard Oakley]

Gallagher is out - if he's got a punctured lung, perhaps for ever. Nyambe could be out sometime, if it is a hamstring. Injuries have ripped the squad at the start of the year to shreds, especially defence. The squad is still top 6 in talent/potential and another manager could get a top 6 finish. The team is not playing with any belief that they're going to win.

Formation would be 4-4-2, despite my preference for 4-2-3-1

Kaminski

JRC Lenihan Carter Douglas

Dolan Travis(c) Rothwell Elliott

Dack Armstrong

It's not JRC's best position and he's on his way back from injury. Not certain about Carter. Elliott's left footed. Get crosses in from the byline. The way Blackburn Rovers used to play.

[riverholmes]

It's possible that part of the problem is formation confusion. 4-3-3 is the fad these days but, as far as I see it (being no tactician), it is a glorified 4-5-1 or 4-4-2 (or so it should be) as without the ball, the forward(s) need to drop back to track the opposite full backs and to protect their own.

I can think of three recent goals that highlight formational confusion - there's undoubtedly many more. The first goal scored by PNE when Nyambe covered in the centre and no-one was in sight to cover him in the right back position - though, he did well to try and block the wonder shot by Cunningham. That goal by Canos for Brentford when he cut in from the left, when Buckley was trying to stop him in the right back spot and for some reason Armstrong came ambling back without any real defensive intent and provided a decoy, helping the Brentford player to throw Buckley. Then, I can think of that Doncaster FA Cup goal when Travis and Trybull had vacated the centre of the pitch, giving their player the freedom to run from the half-way line and strike a shot that Pears should probably have saved. I believe the player haring after him was Brereton.

I'm not that familiar with tactics at all but it seems to me that, often, our formation and positional play is, at times, undermining the genuine talent we have - particularly in terms of forwards defending the flanks and a central midfielder being disciplined in the defensive role. We've also had a litany of injuries and some key players getting Covid that may be affecting them still. Then there are Mowbray and team's dubious signings - Johnson, Downing, Pears, Ayala, Trybull to name a few most recent ones.

Is the squad overrated? Possibly but I do think we are underperforming.

Edited February 20, 2021 by riverholmes

[tomphil]

It certainly was by some but it's capable of better than what we've seen regardless of covid/injuries/pitch etc.

I said i thought we were a season and some more decent recruits away from a proper top 6 effort. Definitely thought we'd be nearer at this point and just wanted us to have a good go. 

I knew this manager wouldn't go for it though he's far more comfortable in his defeatist attitude zone talking up everyone we play, talking down his own club and showing little faith in his own players style wise. In typical fashion though we'll finish strongly and put another false narrative on it.

 

[roversfan99]

36 minutes ago, Southside Rover said:

So perhaps all points against us at the moment don't count coz we are in a crisis? We could play that same match against Derby, Wycombe or Coventry now as they were and we'd draw at best.

My point is there was an energy, drive, passion, belief and above all a slickness that even in the closer games teams couldn't live with so yes top 6 was possible but all of that has gone so is it the squad or something else?

I think considering a few games as evidence of the overall capability of the players is a little risky. They were very impressive performances but not indicative of the overall performance level of the team. In our first 10 games, we had those 3 thrashings, 2 coming against ten men, 2 competive losses v better teams, and the other 5 games in that spell we played really poorly in. 

Do I think that constantly changing formations, players out of position etc are hindering the players? Yeah I do but equally I dont think the squad is quite as good as we think, which again is the responsibility of Mowbray.

[Roverthechimp]

37 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Rothwell and Premier League is a hell of a statement, this isnt a player who has ever hit those levels and is only now underachieving, this is a player whose best games are usually ones he doesnt feature in.

Ayala may have done 3 or 4 years ago but now he isnt fit enough to play and when he is, we lose more often than we win. Douglas again in the past and has improved in recent weeks, and even Nyambe is a level off the right backs of the top 6. Holtby has never displayed any signs of being a top 6 player in this league either, I think with him his reputation stemming from his younger years and potential he perhaps has never fulfilled fool us a bit. Even Travis, compare to Cook, Lerma, Pearson, Wilshire, Billing, Rupp, Skipp, Da Silva, Norgaard, Hourihane, Grimes, Will Hughes, Chalobah, Cleverley, Swift etc, not sure he is as good as. 

100% he is responsible for the squad he has assembled. I just feel that there is a slightly false perception of the quality of the players we have, and whether more than pure underachievement, the underperforming is down to the flaws in how the squad has been assembled in the first place. He cant moan about resources or time.

I personally think that to get us into the top 6 could be perceived as slightly overachieving. Then again, there are certainly managers that armed with a prolific goalscorer would certainly put us in with a shout, albeit with a lot more tactical consistency and simplicity.

Fair points. I think it is difficult because this squad and TM are intertwined.

 

[arbitro]

I firmly believe we have a top six squad (when all are fit) but a mid table manager. The early season for saw us with a style of playing, a method which really suited the players and there was a nice balance. Since the early, successful part of the season Mowbrays muddled thinking has taken over and things have become over complicated and we became a side with no identity again. His seemingly random team selections, tactics, set up and substitutions have had us all scratching our heads at times.

Recent performances are a stark contrast to early season. The intensity, press and pace which was winning us games and scoring lots of goals has disappeared and we are back to being mundane, slow and predictable. I'm certain any potential new manager would be attracted by looking at the squad and knowing the potential.

However I do understand that with lots of loans and out of contract players this summer could once again see a massive upheaval.

[Rogerb]

Listening on radio lancs yesterday Andy Bayes raised this very question his conclusion was we are not top six material.

[chaddyrovers]

12 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Just wondering what people think to the overall state of our current squad. I see regularly that it is a top 6 squad grossly underperforming, I am not convinced.

I don't know if you listened to pre match show yesterday on Radio Lancashire but Andy Bayes said he didn't think our squad was good enough for top 8 in the championship despite Mowbray's claims it is. If you look at the points he made he is right I guess looking back now. 

12 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Kaminski is a competent keeper with incompetent cover.

incompetent cover?

12 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Defensively, still a mess, the only 2 of any credibility are Lenihan and Nyambe, both of whom have a year left and Mowbray inherited. Beside that, we have the incompetent Bell, a loanee in Douglas who has improved recently, a couple of kids who arent ready on loan,  an expensive crock on a long term deal, Williams who has never been particularly good or reliable,

Mowbray lack of signing a quality centre backs in the previous 2 seasons has cost us. Plus right back player is what we lack for 2 seasons now to challenge Nyambe for the slot

This expensive crock player Daniel Ayala is the one you wanted us to sign all summer. You got your wish.

12 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

In midfield, we have signed so many, Johnson, Davenport, Rothwell, Holtby, Trybull, Downing etc, there may well be sone quality there but none have contributed to a point where we would really miss them if they left tomorrow. Travis is the only one and he himself is not one of the best in the league. 

fair too many options here and have to question why we sign Downing and Trybull in the first place. Johnson should be release in the summer. Holtby unsure 

Travis, Buckley and Davenport should be part of our first team plans going forward

12 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

In attack, we are solely reliant on Armstrong with the manager struggling to get the proven Dack back in regularly, and Elliott has been a very good loan. Aside from that, we have our 12m misfits and a raw kid.

Armstrong has been our best player all season. 

Not sure its the manager fault over the performances of Dack and will take the rest of the season to get back to any sort of performances. 

We need to get Brereton back on song post injury which came when he was in form. Gallagher needs to play up front or bench. 

The squad is mid table because thats where results say we deserve to be. 

[booth]

Whether it is or isn't, Mowbray is damned if it is, damned if it isn't.

He's either managing good players badly, or they are bad players who he has assembled.

Edited February 21, 2021 by booth

[Ossydave]

Its hard to tell to be honest.

We probably do rate our own players higher than fans of other teams do, its normal though everyone does it.

When you have a manager that's asking players to do unfamiliar jobs though it has an obvious impact. You don't ask a plumber to replace your roof, much like you shouldn't play Sam Gallagher out wide.

Would be interesting to see how another manager would utilise the tools in the box if it ever happened.

[DE.]

38 minutes ago, Ossydave said:

Its hard to tell to be honest.

We probably do rate our own players higher than fans of other teams do, its normal though everyone does it.

When you have a manager that's asking players to do unfamiliar jobs though it has an obvious impact. You don't ask a plumber to replace your roof, much like you shouldn't play Sam Gallagher out wide.

Would be interesting to see how another manager would utilise the tools in the box if it ever happened.

This is pretty much my view as well. It's really difficult to judge our players at the moment, as they are under the instruction of a manager who is at what would traditionally be the end of the road for most clubs. Mowbray's selections, tactics, subs and interviews are becoming increasingly bizarre and desperate, making it difficult to judge how the players would fare under a more stable, organised manager. 

I don't think we have a squad significantly worse than a lot of the clubs going for a top six finish. With the right manager, able to make a team greater than the sum of its parts, I believe we would have a decent shot at the playoffs. Our weakest area is defence, due to how injury-prone most of our first team defenders are, but a better manager would likely have addressed this some time ago. Certainly if they were given four years to complete that task.

[Ewood Ace]

I think this squad is much better than it is currently showing and that they aren't reaching their full potential due to a number of things and those things are mainly down to the manager, things such as constantly chopping and changing the starting 11, messing about with systems and playing players out of positions

Man for man though the squad is at the very least capable of being in and around the race for top 6.

Kaminiski- Very reliable goal keeper there aren't many in the division I would say are much better than him.

Nyambe- One of the best right backs in the league in my opinion.

Bennett- Isn't good enough for this division or probably the one below come to that.

Lenihan- Under a good manager he would be a player good enough to play for a top 6 team. But Mowbray doesn't improve defenders and some get worse, in his time here the only defender that has got better under him is Nyambe and I can't help but feel that is more in spite of Mowbray rather than due to him. The year we went down Lenihan was one of the bright spots and putting him at the back was one of Coyle's best ideas but I don't think Lenihan has progressed enough since that season. There are games where he looks a top centre back but to often he makes rash mistakes which at his age should have been eradicated. I can't help but feel a better coach would make him a better player and immediately that would improve the team as our results usually parallel his performance.

Ayala- For years he has been one of the best defenders at this level yet under Mowbray he has looked poor. A classic example of what I was talking about earlier that Mowbray doesn't improve defenders and some get worse under him. Under a better defensive coach we'd have a very good defender in him.

Branthwaite- Not been impressed by him.

THB- Need to see more of him.

Williams- Isn't good enough for this division. Not improved under Mowbray.

Bell- Isn't good enough for this division. Not improved under Mowbray.

Douglas- Another one like Ayala has come in having previously been a very solid player at this level he has with two promotion to his name, but again has been poor. 

Johnson- A solid squad player whose best years are behind him.

Travis- The last 18 months his progress has stalled. Mowbray talked about him being important because he kick's opponents. Personally I don't see Travis as that type of player but he is trying to be more of that type of player but I think he's a better footballer than that and that we aren't seeing his full potential.

Davenport- A solid squad option but I' not sure he's anymore than that.

Holtby- Undoubtedly has quality but I do wonder how much he wants to be here.

Downing- Hasn't played enough we are desperate for someone in the middle of the park to connect the play with the attackers and then when he gets a start we decide to go long ball and bypass the midfield.

Evans- Waste of space.

Trybull- I don't know what's going on with him but I'd be surprised if we see him in a Rovers shirt again. He showed previously for Norwich that he is a good player at this level but for whatever reason it hasn't worked out.

Buckley- Not good enough for the football league.

Rothwell- One of the most naturally talented at the club, one of the few players with the ability to run with the ball and connect the play from the midfield to the attackers. But he is a confidence player and I don't think he has ever had the full confidence of the manager he is in and out the team, subbed off regularly even when playing well, changing positions. In 3 seasons he's never really had a consistent run in a single position.

Elliott- An exceptional talent who most certainly won't be here next season. But he's another one who get's messed about with position he's not a false 9 or a central player he is a wide right player and we are a more dangerous attacking team when he is on the right.

Dolan- A lighting start a bad performance or two and hasn't got a start since. Is that a reason why the first half goals have dried up?  He is certainly an exciting prospect who for me has been underused.

Brereton- Not good enough for this level. If that £7 Million had been spent well we'd have a squad capable of competing for the top 2.

Dack- We all know he is a quality player but it will take a bit of time for him to get back to being the player he was.

Gallagher- Another one who has been a victim of being miss used by the manager he isn't, never has been and never will be a winger. If played through the middle I think he could get you 10-12 goals a season and he also gives you a different option of how to play.

Armstrong- His goal scoring record the past 12 months or so speaks for itself.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Ewood Ace

[DeeCee]

Definitely top six if all were fit, were coached properly and played in their correct positions. None of those 3 will ever happen.

[Richard Oakley]

@Ewood AceDisagree with you on Evans. Good enough for Northern Ireland. Has mystery injuries that miraculously clear for International breaks and equally mysteriously reappear after. He's a player Mowbray had a chance to sell and get some money for. Now, we'll lose him for nowt. I wouldn't try to extend his contract, mind.

Were Bennett a horse, he'd have been put out to pasture by now. Apologies to horses.