Current Squad - Is it overrated?

[tonygreenbank]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

I think solely based on judging the squad Mowbray has assembled against other squads without judging managers, that it is not in the top 6 squads, and that some of our players are overrated. I do think that it is underachieving down in 15th however under Mowbray, based on his baffling tactics etc.

O'Neill, no, the other 4 are top managers at this level who get more than the sum of a teams parts at this level, so for sure, they would have us competing.

Really interesting thread Rover99 and one I’ve been thinking about for some time. I recall Gary Bowyer getting criticised as he supposedly had a top 6 squad but failed to get them there.

I think there are 3 elements to this question. Firstly, if you believe in the top 6 statement then it seems to me that Tony Mowbray deserves credit for assembling the squad.

Secondly, the fact that we have not been a top 6 club this season is a big negative against the manager and he faces criticism for his tactics, team selections etc. as supporters claim we are underperforming.

Like someone commented previously we as fans think our squad is better than most and should be doing better but often it’s based on a hunch or gut feeling. Is there any way that we could use objective, empirical baseline data to answer the question?

Which leads me to the third element. If  you compared all 24 squads in the Championship, looking at the goalkeepers, defenders, midfielders and forwards and applied skill based data to each area and quantified it you could arrive at a crude score for each team and thus be aware of which teams were over or underperforming. I’m not sure if such data exists but it would be an interesting exercise.

I do know that in the world of education over the last 30 years such base line data has been applied to our pupils so managers and teachers have an idea what an individual pupil should be capable of and whether schools are under or over performing when it comes to public exams. I well remember being appraised every year over my exam results as other teachers on here will empathise with. 

I know it’s not exactly scientific but last months Four Four Two magazine studied the remaining Championship  fixtures in 2021 and they had Rovers finishing in 9th place. The top 6 were Norwich, Watford, Bournemouth, Brentford, Swansea and Middlesborough so it will be interesting to see how accurate their magazine writers are.

 

 

 

[TheRoversReturn]

On 28/02/2021 at 23:00, roversfan99 said:

I think solely based on judging the squad Mowbray has assembled against other squads without judging managers, that it is not in the top 6 squads, and that some of our players are overrated. I do think that it is underachieving down in 15th however under Mowbray, based on his baffling tactics etc.

O'Neill, no, the other 4 are top managers at this level who get more than the sum of a teams parts at this level, so for sure, they would have us competing.

I think this is a top six squad just about, albeit unevenly distributed. So, therefore, it should be challenging to be in the playoffs. I could accept being round about the playoffs by the end of the campaign, even if we do ultimately miss out. That'd be frustrating, but where we should be. Some might think we should be aiming higher, but they're all just opinions...not facts. Seems we can all agree that the exact strength is not the main point though, which is that Mowbray is failing to come close to reach the potential of this squad. We could even be down to 18th place by the weekend should results go against us. 18th in March!

As it is, considering our March schedule, we're much more likely to be harbouring relegation fears than anything else. 

[roversfan99]

Must go back to this thread I raised earlier, something that becomes more and more clear as the games pass is how poor this squad is that Mowbray has assembled, that he somehow thinks is "asset rich."

Looking at the squad yesterday, how many of those 20 are top 6 players? 

Full of players who if this that and the other happened would apparently be world beaters, based on absolutely nothing.

Need to hit the reset button.

[Bigdoggsteel]

I think it's easy to say that now and be negative, but a lot of , if not all the blame, lies with the manager for the under achieving. Really though, have Cardiff or Barnsley better squads than us? 

@roversfan99 Didn't you make the case not so long ago that we have a better squad than Boro? 

[Oldgregg86]

3 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Must go back to this thread I raised earlier, something that becomes more and more clear as the games pass is how poor this squad is that Mowbray has assembled, that he somehow thinks is "asset rich."

Looking at the squad yesterday, how many of those 20 are top 6 players? 

Full of players who if this that and the other happened would apparently be world beaters, based on absolutely nothing.

Need to hit the reset button.

With so many players out of contract it might be best get a new manager , coaches , ceo and have a good clear out and start again because this is beyond stale

[roversfan99]

11 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

I think it's easy to say that now and be negative, but a lot of , if not all the blame, lies with the manager for the under achieving. Really though, have Cardiff or Barnsley better squads than us? 

@roversfan99 Didn't you make the case not so long ago that we have a better squad than Boro? 

I am not 100% sure I did, but even so, Boro dont have a top 6 squad either, in fact they have a top 6 level manager perhaps overachieving a tad. And if I did say that, I myself perhaps was fooled slightly at the start, I didnt realise that Ayala was quite so past it, that Douglas was past it etc.

Cardiff and Barnsley also have very good managers, neither probably have top 6 squads but I think both of their managers would not swap their squads for ours.

Who would we miss if they went? We are disproportionally reliant on our goals coming from Armstrong, so when he isnt firing, they just dont come at all, aside from a brief respite from Dack who undoubtedly has the quality but we will be without again for a while. Defensively its never been addressed and nothing in the midfield to shout home about. Which players will you be genuinely sad if they left tomorrow? Which players are a good manager away from a transformation? 

The blame does lie with the manager tactically but mainly for assembling a sorry squad of players despite the time and money to do much better.

[riverholmes]

Would be interesting to know the last time a Rovers player was selected for the No.1 ranked national team in the world. Of course, not that the rankings necessarily  reflect the reality of team abilities but Kaminski is rubbing shoulders with some really good players and a few world class ones in the Belgium squad.

Edit: I can't think if it has ever previously happened since the FIFA World Rankings started, in 1993. I suppose England were high in the rankings when our players have been selected but they've never reached top position. Andre Ooijer was in the Holland squad when they were doing well and, it seems, they did reach top spot for a brief period, but, at the time, Ooijer was no longer at Rovers.

Edited March 22, 2021 by riverholmes

[roversfan99]

So depressing again seeing how poor this squad is, needs both a new manager and a total reset button pressed to avoid a relegation scrap next year.

Brereton is just an absolute joker. Gallagher was equally poor central as he was wide, touch of a donkey, no goal threat, often offside breaking attacks down. Holtby seemed a huge signal of intent, a closer look and he has lived off his early supposed promise and 3 German caps at a time when they were establishing themselves, he looks out of his depth at this level. Rothwell is continuously invisible. Trybull bog standard, Elliott has been poor for months, Dolan and Buckley may aswell have not come on, Johnson and Downing ready for the knackers yard. Rankin Costello clearly not a full back and is far too injury prone to be overly concerned about his contract.

[Bigdoggsteel]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

So depressing again seeing how poor this squad is, needs both a new manager and a total reset button pressed to avoid a relegation scrap next year.

Brereton is just an absolute joker. Gallagher was equally poor central as he was wide, touch of a donkey, no goal threat, often offside breaking attacks down. Holtby seemed a huge signal of intent, a closer look and he has lived off his early supposed promise and 3 German caps at a time when they were establishing themselves, he looks out of his depth at this level. Rothwell is continuously invisible. Trybull bog standard, Elliott has been poor for months, Dolan and Buckley may aswell have not come on, Johnson and Downing ready for the knackers yard. Rankin Costello clearly not a full back and is far too injury prone to be overly concerned about his contract.

It might not be so bad if there was a plan..Mowbray should be gone and a new manager should be in evaluating what we need now. We have good young players. The freed up wages could be used to good effect. 

Alas, this club is a basket case and we are sleep walking into a relegation battle next season. Worse we will lose academy players and generally never see the academy crop that we have now reach their potential. Some other clubs will benefit. 

 

[roversfan99]

10 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

It might not be so bad if there was a plan..Mowbray should be gone and a new manager should be in evaluating what we need now. We have good young players. The freed up wages could be used to good effect. 

Alas, this club is a basket case and we are sleep walking into a relegation battle next season. Worse we will lose academy players and generally never see the academy crop that we have now reach their potential. Some other clubs will benefit. 

 

A new manager is definitely needed but there is not much to write about with our squad, too many players who supposedly could do better in different circumstances despite never having proven as much in their career including here.

[Sparks Rover]

The problem is that even our so-called bestest stalwart defender, neanderthal Lenihan, is shocking at times.  I can't fathom what position he is taking up for the goal today.  So, its a real worry.

All our eggs are in the Carter, Wharton and Magliore basket....and Mowbray doesn't rate any of them by the looks of it.  I bet you as much as you want they will be sound in a back 3.  At least an improvement on this shyte.

With a good preseason

Edited April 2, 2021 by Sparks Rover

[roversfan99]

Think its totally unjustified personally to suggest that those 3 in a back 3 would be competent at Championship level at this stage.

[Sparks Rover]

15 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Think its totally unjustified personally to suggest that those 3 in a back 3 would be competent at Championship level at this stage.

Nothing to lose.  And I think we will be in league 1 soon, so its a start.

[Bigdoggsteel]

9 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Think its totally unjustified personally to suggest that those 3 in a back 3 would be competent at Championship level at this stage.

Ya, Magloire seems to have turned into Nesta in some fans eyes since he has been away. Looks decent, but nothing to suggest we should rely on him and the others and expect results 

[rigger]

2 minutes ago, Bigdoggsteel said:

Ya, Magloire seems to have turned into Nesta in some fans eyes since he has been away. Looks decent, but nothing to suggest we should rely on him and the others and expect results 

With what we have at the moment we can't even beat Wycombe. If that sounds derogative towards Wycombe, that's because it is meant to be. So how can it not be worth trying. At the moment, playing our entire U23s side would be a better bet. We would still have 5 subs that could be brought on, which we do anyway. My only caveat would be that the U23s manager would have to run it.

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

11 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

too many players who supposedly could do better in different circumstances despite never having proven as much in their career including here.

Which brings us back to the Barnsley conundrum. Saved from relegation on the last day of last season, kept the same manager, no wins in 6 at the beginning of this season, sacked manager and now top 6 a few short months later.

Same players. 

And we have more players in our squad that have 'proved' they could do better elsewhere, and have achieved more in the game, than Barnsley's ever have. 

Everything changes with a new manager, as has been shown a million times before during the lifetime of professional football. l wouldn't make any judgements on the players until a more competent manager gets hold of them.