Millwall v rovers

[Exiled in Toronto]

11 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

Yes. Bottom clip. 

That clip only showed the half of it - he also won the ball not far from our halfway line, then got round the back of the entire defence, then played a peach of a pass. Clear as day penalty when you slow it down.

 

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

17 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

He started yesterday, no need to 'drop' anyone. 

The real question is, who deserves to play based on performances over the last 2 months?

Much as I'd like to play the same team - Sat, Millwall - Tue, Swansea - Fri, Brentford means that changes are inevitable. The only good thing is there isn't any travelling involved.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

3 minutes ago, Exiled in Toronto said:

That clip only showed the half of it - he also won the ball not far from our halfway line, then got round the back of the entire defence, then played a peach of a pass. Clear as day penalty when you slow it down.

 

Yes, a  nice ball to the left back - who should have been a couple of yards wider out if I'm being picky. He made it easier for Buckley but harder for himself.  I like players who can spread the play effectively though.

The ref got in a decent position and then allowed himself to be unsighted by other players. You can't give what you don't see. Although some refs would have done !

[Paul Mani]

44 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

I can't take you seriously when you say things like that. 

Anyway, how many goals has Whiteman scored at PNE from open play?

Whiteman is a poor mans Cory Evans.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

2 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Whiteman is a poor mans Cory Evans.

Sorry, you're wrong there. The lad can play in the last third. Corry's never been there.

[Sparks Rover]

6 minutes ago, Paul Mani said:

Whiteman is a poor mans Cory Evans.

Sad quote really.  He had played 90 mins of every game since he joined.  Played very well against us while Bucko got splinters on his arse....

[LDRover]

3 hours ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

That last clip when he slots Gally in - sublime pass that even Gally was surprised to get.

I think a few have judged him a bit too early and have backed themselves into a corner. Can't wait to see him blossom in thstc team. He's a very talented lad. 

Agreed, that ball is a quality pass and shows what he can do. The rest however is very basic midfield play that even Corry Evans would achieve during 90 minutes.

Nice to give the lad some praise though as he has been pretty ordinary so far.

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

Just now, LDRover said:

Agreed, that ball is a quality pass and shows what he can do. The rest however is very basic midfield play that even Corry Evans would achieve during 90 minutes.

Nice to give the lad some praise though as he has been pretty ordinary so far.

I've never seen Evans sprint down the line and whip a ball in. 

[LDRover]

Just now, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

I've never seen Evans sprint down the line and whip a ball in. 

He probably has done once in his long career though, maybe even when he has been here. Not sure there would have been a detailed examination on here mind.

[Sparks Rover]

2 minutes ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

I've never seen Evans sprint down the line and whip a ball in. 

He did well.  What more.  Nothing came of it.  You will blow a gasket if he actually had a decent shot on goal or god forbid, a goal....

[Paul Mani]

25 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Sorry, you're wrong there. The lad can play in the last third. Corry's never been there.

Cory could probably do the same at the level Whitemans been playing at. We’ll see what an absolute dynamo he is in the Championship. Done nothing yet!

Be really interesting to see maybe next season if we could compare the impact of Buckley on our team and Whiteman on Prestons. Goals, assists, key passes etc. It would of course be dependent on them both getting the same amount of minutes but it wouldn’t surprise me if Buckley was streets ahead...

FYI - That’s not because I’ve seen loads of Buckley. It’s because I’ve seen enough of Whiteman to realise he’s a middle of the road Champ CM (A Cory Evans) whereas the staff at Rovers are convinced Buckley is ‘the one’ and a Premier League certainty. We’ll see!

Edited March 7, 2021 by Paul Mani

[Hoochie Bloochie Mama]

 

9 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

He did well.  What more.  Nothing came of it.  You will blow a gasket if he actually had a decent shot on goal or god forbid, a goal....

He scored last season. My pants dampened. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Sparks Rover said:

It's ok, not bad...I think you are getting too excited about fairly average play

Show me him scoring

Charlton away 19/20

Sheffielf Wednesday home 19/20

Stoke City home 20/21

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

He did well.  What more.  Nothing came of it.  You will blow a gasket if he actually had a decent shot on goal or god forbid, a goal....

So now he’s not good because he didn’t have a decent shot on goal?

Christ, how many “decent shots on goal” did Harry Chapman manage at Championship level? 

[Sparks Rover]

Just now, JoeH said:

Christ, how many “decent shots on goal” did Harry Chapman manage at Championship level? 

If he was part of Tony's getalong gang probably a fair few....doing very well in league 1 and should be an integral part of our squad next seaon..

[J*B]

2 hours ago, Hoochie Bloochie Mama said:

Damned with faint praise. You wrote him off quite early on so I suppose you have to caveat any acknowledgment of a promising performance with a comparator which only raises more doubts. 

Not at all. I don’t rate him, I’ve never rated him, I think his only hope is that he develops into a bigger frame. But I desperately hope he comes good and yesterday he didn’t stand out as not good enough, which is an improvement. But I may well be wrong. 

[tomphil]

44 minutes ago, Sparks Rover said:

Sad quote really.  He had played 90 mins of every game since he joined.  Played very well against us while Bucko got splinters on his arse....

He wouldn't have played 90 mins of every game if he'd come here to join the tombola squad, even if he was a worldie.

[roversfan99]

4 hours ago, JoeH said:

Couldn't disagree more with this statement so I've provided some video evidence to back up my point. Buckley was brilliant on the ball and I don't understand how you can say he wasn't? He showed good strength, moved us forward, made key runs, split the lines. He wasn't slow at all.

66:01 - The ball to Gallagher in the box for that shot in the 2nd half.
68:39 - The run into the box and ball across for Dack. [Penalty Claim]
30:52 - Wins ball back with some good strength, finds pass quickly and moves play on.
44:58 - Quick first time pass over to Barry Douglas. Smart move, moved it quickly and didn't dither.
18:42 - Key interception leading to big chance for us. Showed speed to get there and awareness to see it coming.

 

 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, JoeH said:

It's not forensic at all. I can find these clips quite quickly through the platforms I use. These five clips are just a snippet. There's an upload limit and I was also conscious of taking up an entire page with clips of JB. 

He wasn't perfect, but finding clips of him doing good things wasn't hard.

This stuff isn't basic. Not every midfielder in our team or in this league is making those passes and those interceptions for me. He's a good young player who keeps proving people wrong. He's got 1,500+ minutes under his belt now for us, which I think people forget, we need to get behind him!

I dont need video evidence as I watched the whole game live. In the first half, he gave the ball away, chose the wrong pass and dawdled in possession a number of times, to the point that a pair of commentators biased to the point that they would have you believe that a play off push is on repeatedly mentioned it, and also shouts from the management team on the side could be heard when he repeatedly squandered possession. I did however mention that his run just before he came off down the wing and the ball in was superb, and his pressing and industry was impressive. My comments were based on the theory that he is a gifted player who is physically out of his depth. I felt that the physical side he coped with well, and it was his use of the ball that let him down.

Mowbray specifically mentioned Buckley for praise so it will be interesting to see if he backs that up with a second start on Tuesday night. I wouldnt necessarily be against that with eyes already turning to next season as I remain at this stage unconvinced that he can be a first team regular any time soon, but would love him to prove me wrong.

Im not sure he has really proven anyone wrong either. Jason Lowe and Elliott Bennett, not that I am comparing them obviously, but both have thousands of minutes to point to, did either prove people wrong with their quality? No.

I particularly am confused by the comment "we need to get behind him" at the end. May I ask what that even means? Just a totally unwarranted and pointless statement that is regularly used which always baffles me. Players have been playing in front of empty stadiums for a year, and before that, did he ever receive anything but support? Has he received personal abuse on social media? Or is that a counter argument to constructive criticism of a player on an internet forum by questioning their supporter status?

[chaddyrovers]

1 hour ago, Exiled_Rover said:

Who would you drop?

Changes will happened when we have 3 games in a week like Dack wont start all 3 after such a serious injury. I would play tomorrow and on bench on Friday. 

I would play Trybull and Buckley for Tuesday and then Travis, Evans and Buckley for Brentford 

 

[chaddyrovers]

23 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

I dont need video evidence as I watched the whole game live. In the first half, he gave the ball away, chose the wrong pass and dawdled in possession a number of times,

But all because you watched the game, doesn't meant anything more than Joe's view who watched the game and then found these clips of Buckley. . These clips show how good Buckley was in the game. Being the player Buckley is, he of course will give the ball but he won the ball back and played some good passes like the one for Dack and the one for Gallagher which was quality pass

 

23 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Mowbray specifically mentioned Buckley for praise so it will be interesting to see if he backs that up with a second start on Tuesday night. I wouldnt necessarily be against that with eyes already turning to next season as I remain at this stage unconvinced that he can be a first team regular any time soon, but would love him to prove me wrong.

why wouldn't you want him to start after a good performance? 

I rather see Buckley play in midfield for the rest of the season cos he will be here next season and hopefully a big part of the first team next season then play Johnson or Downing who hopefully wont be here next season. We should be looking to play more of him, Dolan, Davenport, Rankin-Costello and McBride before the season ends. 

31 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

a counter argument to constructive criticism of a player on an internet forum

But when people make a constructive criticism about Dack and not rushing him back after such a serious injury you quickly to say that we should play him when clearly his fitness isn't up to it. 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, roversfan99 said:

I particularly am confused by the comment "we need to get behind him" at the end. May I ask what that even means? Just a totally unwarranted and pointless statement that is regularly used which always baffles me. Players have been playing in front of empty stadiums for a year, and before that, did he ever receive anything but support? Has he received personal abuse on social media? Or is that a counter argument to constructive criticism of a player on an internet forum by questioning their supporter status?

John Buckley is a local lad who will hear things. Like many players his age is an avid social media user. These players see the comments people make. You don't have to hear pressure in the stadiums as a Blackburn Rovers player right now to know that the fans are unhappy. There's nobody chanting "We want Mowbray Out" but TM knows full well the fans want change.

To answer the question of how you support a young player like that I'd say this: Praise them when they do well, give them chances for first team minutes, hype them up on social media, sing their name in the stands (when its possible), don't jump on their back when they make a mistake or two. Just because a players doesn't 'receive abuse' doesn't mean they're supported. I'm not questioning you as a supporter, or your status as a supporter... I just think we should be trying to see the good in our young talents rather than criticising them at every possible turn.

We DO have to get behind our young players. We should be doing everything we can to give our young footballers that we've produced, like Bucko who's been here since the age of 6, the best possible chance. There are particular supporters who for some unknown reason don't want to believe in John Buckley, and I don't understand it.

Is it because he's thin?

[roversfan99]

25 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

But all because you watched the game, doesn't meant anything more than Joe's view who watched the game and then found these clips of Buckley. . These clips show how good Buckley was in the game. Being the player Buckley is, he of course will give the ball but he won the ball back and played some good passes like the one for Dack and the one for Gallagher which was quality pass

 

why wouldn't you want him to start after a good performance? 

I rather see Buckley play in midfield for the rest of the season cos he will be here next season and hopefully a big part of the first team next season then play Johnson or Downing who hopefully wont be here next season. We should be looking to play more of him, Dolan, Davenport, Rankin-Costello and McBride before the season ends. 

But when people make a constructive criticism about Dack and not rushing him back after such a serious injury you quickly to say that we should play him when clearly his fitness isn't up to it. 

 

My point was that I dont need to see random clips when I watched the whole game. Unsure if you have managed to see it but he gave the ball away a number of times in the first half, to the point whereby 2 biased commentators were critical. I acknowledged his wonderful run and pass in the second half and also praised a side which often comes into question ie his ability to win the ball back.

The Dack comparison is senseless. I never said to you that you "need to get behind" Dack or anything so meaningless. We differed on our opinion of how he has and how he should be used which is for me at least constructive debate rather than platitudes and questioning of support. I was very critical of the positions in which Mowbray in his muddled up thinking has put Dack since his return, very deep in midfield, as a false 9 and on the left wing, none of which suit him. I also feel a few months since a return to full fitness that it an issue of match sharpness and rhythm rather than physical fitness that is holding him back, something which will only come from regular game time. i thought he was excellent yesterday and I put that mainly down to the way he was used which suited him much more than the other 3 braindead ideas that Mowbray has come up with since his return.

Regarding next season, it is rather depressing that we are already at a stage whereby we are experimenting towards next season, but that is where we are, and also that implies that the manager will remain, which is also depressing. But I would agree, not necessarily in terms of giving out token minutes to youth players, but figuring out combinations etc going forward. Armstrong seems destined to leave, for all the criticism, we dont have a replacement for his goals within the club so will need to recruit. But Dack is the key man, he needs to regain that rhythm in his natural position, it makes sense to play him like yesterday and build around him. Defensively, once Ayala is fit, he should play over Harwood Bellis, only the former will be here next season. Kaminski is an obvious. Neither left back is contracted into next season, but we know Bell is far inferior, so play Douglas every week with the carrot of earning a contract. Right back, that needs sorting. I dont think Rankin Costello is a full back, and Nyambe is better, but which if any will be here next season? If so, probably prioritise them. Travis in CM should get plenty of game time. Davenport should be back involved when fit. Evans and Downing should only feature in an emergency, beyond winning a new deal now. Buckley? Unconvinced that he has use in a squad next season pushing for promotion, maybe one to be loaned, but give him game time to give him a go. Johnson and Holtby? Might be scope to keep one for experience, but are they fit enough? Rothwell? Not sure whats happening with his contract, not arsed either way with him. Would give Gallagher a game or two centrally, shouldnt be our main striker next year as he isnt good enough for that, but see if he can push a new signing. Brereton, again perhaps need a new deal, give him game time off the left. Dolan, again give him game time. 

[Guest]

 

1 minute ago, roversfan99 said:

Buckley? Unconvinced that he has use in a squad next season pushing for promotion, maybe one to be loaned, but give him game time to give him a go

The last thing that John Buckley needs is a loan away from Ewood Park. He'd end up at a League One club and it would halt his development. His abilities suit the Premier League more than they do the lower leagues of the EFL. 

[roversfan99]

5 minutes ago, JoeH said:

John Buckley is a local lad who will hear things. Like many players his age is an avid social media user. These players see the comments people make. You don't have to hear pressure in the stadiums as a Blackburn Rovers player right now to know that the fans are unhappy. There's nobody chanting "We want Mowbray Out" but TM knows full well the fans want change.

To answer the question of how you support a young player like that I'd say this: Praise them when they do well, give them chances for first team minutes, hype them up on social media, sing their name in the stands (when its possible), don't jump on their back when they make a mistake or two. Just because a players doesn't 'receive abuse' doesn't mean they're supported. I'm not questioning you as a supporter, or your status as a supporter... I just think we should be trying to see the good in our young talents rather than criticising them at every possible turn.

We DO have to get behind our young players. We should be doing everything we can to give our young footballers that we've produced, like Bucko who's been here since the age of 6, the best possible chance. There are particular supporters who for some unknown reason don't want to believe in John Buckley, and I don't understand it.

Is it because he's thin?

 

1 minute ago, JoeH said:

 

The last thing that John Buckley needs is a loan away from Ewood Park. He'd end up at a League One club and it would halt his development. His abilities suit the Premier League more than they do the lower leagues of the EFL. 

Give them chances for first team minutes? What does that even mean, surely thats Mowbrays issue?

I think this sanitised environment that you suggest Buckley (or indeed for anyone) is totally unrealistic and maybe something if anything that having played development football, they arent used to and that system needs an overhaul to prepare them more. Any analysis of what happens in the ground is moot at the moment, but people never have gotten on his back vocally that I have heard. Most players dont have a song either if you think about it! It suits NO ROVERS FANS for him not to flourish, and for any player, if he is deemed to be underperforming, to not look ready for first team football, then its unrealistic to expect supporters not to comment. Here, Twitter, wherever, as long as it doesnt involve tweeting him directly, these are the platforms for supporters to discuss, to praise better performers, to criticise poorer performances. I think it is a dangerous place for footballers to go on social media in general, just as it is counter productive for him to make a profile on here, that is a different issue entirely.

It wasnt an issue around my support. I feel like I was balanced with my review of him yesterday, I praised some parts and criticised others.

Is it because hes thin? Quite possibly, his lack of physicality does  sometimes see him bullied and pushed off the ball, so that isnt a stereotypical perception issue, that is a general issue. For me, I think it is a simplistic reason, as I mentioned with my comments on him yesterday, I was more critical of what he did when he was on the ball, off the ball/pressing impressed me.

That last sentence makes absolutely no sense. How does a player who has yet to really stamp his mark at Championship level suit the Premier League more, a higher level! Im guessing its a fear of the cloggers at lower levels but if hes as good as hes made out to be, that shouldnt be an issue. His supposed technical ability and intelligence should set him apart against the more limited players who dont read the game as quickly, and allow him to prove that he CAN impact on games, not even necessarily about him physically toughing up, but to dictate, to create, to assist, to score, to thrive and then to potentially push for a starting 11 place upon his return. Do you think that occasional starts and cameos suits his development?

[chaddyrovers]

4 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

My point was that I dont need to see random clips when I watched the whole game. Unsure if you have managed to see it but he gave the ball away a number of times in the first half, to the point whereby 2 biased commentators were critical. I acknowledged his wonderful run and pass in the second half and also praised a side which often comes into question ie his ability to win the ball back.

I enjoyed clips that focus on one moment of play. 

Yes I have seen the entire game and enjoyed the performance from the team. I enjoyed Dolan, Trybull and Rankin-Costello performances plus Lenihan and Harwood-Bellis partnership. Buckley was good but he did give the ball away but I would expect that in his development as player but I enjoyed those 2 passes he did. 

5 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

The Dack comparison is senseless. I never said to you that you "need to get behind" Dack or anything so meaningless. We differed on our opinion of how he has and how he should be used which is for me at least constructive debate rather than platitudes and questioning of support. I was very critical of the positions in which Mowbray in his muddled up thinking has put Dack since his return, very deep in midfield, as a false 9 and on the left wing, none of which suit him. I also feel a few months since a return to full fitness that it an issue of match sharpness and rhythm rather than physical fitness that is holding him back, something which will only come from regular game time. i thought he was excellent yesterday and I put that mainly down to the way he was used which suited him much more than the other 3 braindead ideas that Mowbray has come up with since his return.

Have you heard or seen the comments from Kevin Gallagher that Mowbray hasn't manage Dack well after his injury by starting him too much and should have eased him be bringing of the bench to build his fitness up.  

9 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

Regarding next season, it is rather depressing that we are already at a stage whereby we are experimenting towards next season, but that is where we are, and also that implies that the manager will remain, which is also depressing. But I would agree, not necessarily in terms of giving out token minutes to youth players, but figuring out combinations etc going forward. Armstrong seems destined to leave, for all the criticism, we dont have a replacement for his goals within the club so will need to recruit. But Dack is the key man, he needs to regain that rhythm in his natural position, it makes sense to play him like yesterday and build around him. Defensively, once Ayala is fit, he should play over Harwood Bellis, only the former will be here next season. Kaminski is an obvious. Neither left back is contracted into next season, but we know Bell is far inferior, so play Douglas every week with the carrot of earning a contract. Right back, that needs sorting. I dont think Rankin Costello is a full back, and Nyambe is better, but which if any will be here next season? If so, probably prioritise them. Travis in CM should get plenty of game time. Davenport should be back involved when fit. Evans and Downing should only feature in an emergency, beyond winning a new deal now. Buckley? Unconvinced that he has use in a squad next season pushing for promotion, maybe one to be loaned, but give him game time to give him a go. Johnson and Holtby? Might be scope to keep one for experience, but are they fit enough? Rothwell? Not sure whats happening with his contract, not arsed either way with him. Would give Gallagher a game or two centrally, shouldnt be our main striker next year as he isnt good enough for that, but see if he can push a new signing. Brereton, again perhaps need a new deal, give him game time off the left. Dolan, again give him game time. 

Who knows if Mowbray will be here next season. Our view clearly think they should be change of manager as soon as possible. 

Who know if Dack will be key man next season. surely that depends on who the manager/head coach is and how they used him ? I wouldn't be playing him against Brentford as 3 games in week is too much for him after a serious injury. 

Ayala? when he is back fit will be when the season is over with. 

I would play Rankin Costello play now. I expect him to sign a new deal before the season ends. He will be key player for us going forward now. 

Loan Buckley out? what for? Play him here, he is good player and I player who will thrive playing regular first team football here. loaning him league 1 or 2 would help his develop how? 

I would let Evans, Downing, Johnson and Holtby all go. I would use Trybull more before the season ends and sign him if he impresses with performances.