Summer transfer window 2021.

[roversfan99]

Each case regarding a loan is individual, you cant take such a small selective sample to prove a point. It depends on a variety of factors, including age, likelihood of game time, position etc. Loads of youngsters have broken through via loans, and loads have done so without. 

@islander200 you mention Dolan but he was 4 years younger, Butterworth has missed so much of his development due to injury. Dolan was also trying to break through out wide where at the start of last season we were short with Elliott yet to sign, starting 4 of the first 5 and only 6 league games after that. Butterworth wouldnt start even if we made no signings before the season as a number 10 with Rothwell and maybe Buckley ahead of him, although I would not allow the loan until we get some bodies through the door ourselves to be fair.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Butterworth has never started a professional football game, surely regular game time is better than sanitised kids football and the odd cameo?

Sanitised kids football did David Raya okay until he was thrown into the deep end, same with Lewis Travis & Ryan Nyambe. Each of them is different and I get that, but in general, I'd say the one's that we don't let go are usually the ones who break in. John Buckley has started to establish himself also and he didn't go out on loan.
*yes Raya went to Southport for a bit, but not for very long, and well before he broke through

Joe Grayson, Tom White, Brad Lyons, Tyler Magloire, Andy Fisher, Sam Hart, Matty Platt, Lewis Hardcastle, John O'Sullivan... loans did nothing for them, and nothing for us.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tom said:

Nyambe absolutely had made his mark and broken through at 22, he may be a better player now but he’s currently 23 and has made 153 appearances for us.

 

At 21? I think he was shaky, making mistakes and hadn't at all proved himself. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, islander200 said:

Had Dolan played a competitive game before last year?Granted he wasn't overly amazing later  but he played his part.

Another example. Dolan had been playing Under 18's football, not even 23's, which is even more "sanitized". It's not about senior apps. It's about talent.

[roversfan99]

16 minutes ago, JoeH said:

Sanitised kids football did David Raya okay until he was thrown into the deep end, same with Lewis Travis & Ryan Nyambe. Each of them is different and I get that, but in general, I'd say the one's that we don't let go are usually the ones who break in. John Buckley has started to establish himself also and he didn't go out on loan.
*yes Raya went to Southport for a bit, but not for very long, and well before he broke through

Joe Grayson, Tom White, Brad Lyons, Tyler Magloire, Andy Fisher, Sam Hart, Matty Platt, Lewis Hardcastle, John O'Sullivan... loans did nothing for them, and nothing for us.

The key is that each case is individual, talent and thus readiness for the first team. Youve just listed loads of poor players who all are nowhere near the standard required. There is no point selecting other individuals because it is a case by case basis, there are loads (not specific to Rovers) of players who have broken through without a loan and succeeded, there are loads who have used loan spells to really ramp up their development, (Armstrong was one of those) there are players who have suffered on the back of not being loaned out and there are players who have been loaned out incorrectly where they havent been played.

I just think for Butterworth that he is in dire need for regular football considering his last couple of years in which he has suffered from injuries. If he stays, do you genuinely see him coming straight in and getting regular game time, especially via starts?

Like I said with Dolan, much younger, in a position where we at the time had only an unfancied Chapman as an alternative. Travis, Raya, Rankin Costello etc all broke in younger. Raya, Lenihan and Wharton all benefitted from loans. But the key is that Butterworth needs to be judged as an individual, no point comparing other players to him. As a player who has never started a proper game, with the injury issues that hes had, plenty of time left and still young of course, go and prove not only that you have the talent to regularly impact at say League 1 level, but perhaps more questionably are physically robust enough to do so and not break down. He wont prove that playing against kids or for 10/20 minutes here and there.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, roversfan99 said:

He wont prove that playing against kids or for 10/20 minutes here and there.

I disagree. Especially as a forward, there no better chance of regular game time with a loan. You're out of control as the parent club. It's worked for others, it should work for him. Our better youth players stay here at Ewood.

Edited July 14, 2021 by JoeH

[roversfan99]

16 minutes ago, JoeH said:

I disagree. Especially as a forward, there no better chance of regular game time with a loan. You're out of control as the parent club. It's worked for others, it should work for him. Our better youth players stay here at Ewood.

Like I said, you are just selecting random examples, Lenihan, Raya and Wharton all benefitted from loans. Loads of the examples you gave who went out on loan are not very good and are at best in League 2. Butterworth should be judged as an individual, you can find positive and negative cases both from former loanees and players who have stayed, both at Rovers and elsewhere.

You dont think he has a better chance of regular football at a League 1 or League 2 club? If he cant get that then he wont be good enough for us anyway.

But do you see Butterworth as potentially getting regular game time here?

Also, would you be against loaning youngsters from other clubs if you feel that our youngsters are best served staying here?

[roversfan99]

There is a balance in that you dont want to keep hold of too many youngsters whereby they get into each others way.

For example, defensively obviously Pickering should stay as our sole left back, at centre back I would personally keep Wharton and loan out Carter.

In midfield, I would sign 2, I would probably keep Buckley and Davenport who would both benefit from the loss of 4 or 5 in there although maybe the latter in particular could do with some regular game time elsewhere.

In attack, we have Butterworth, Dolan, Rankin Costello and Chapman all of whom need to play game time, with none of them yet fully proven, so it is hard to juggle all of them at once, because we need one or two more experienced and proven options especially now Elliott has gone. I would personally loan out Butterworth who needs game time the most, Dolan himself maybe could do with a loan but I think he should stay for the time being, especially as Rankin Costello needs to cover right back.

Even beyond that we have the likes of Pike, McBride and Vale who all probably are best suited getting a loan spell if possible.

[bigbrandjohn]

7 hours ago, OldEwoodBlue said:

so no incoming transfers then and not even a hint of one being on the cards or even a rumour of a rumour.

Must be that head of recruiment to blame.

 

Looks like my prediction of 200 up on the Summer transfer board pages before anything happens may be a good bet. 

[windymiller7]

A point which seems to be going unmentioned re Armstrong, is that we can still offer him £30k pw, or whatever, smashing the wage structure, & then STILL sell him! If he signs it, he's happy with his new deal & it puts us in a better position when the inevitable bids come in, which they will!

If they don't, then we deal with that in January when the bids come in again (barring injury). He won't stop scoring, he's proved it long enough at this level now. If anyone whinges, then tough, you explain the simple financial side of it and send them on their way.

Oh, and can we please disable the multi quote function! When certain people use it, it takes me 10 mins to scroll through one post of pointless argument!

Yes, I've had a beer or two, so apologies in advance.

[Oldgregg86]

Having seen butterworth play quite a lot I had hopes of him breaking into the first team. Make no mistake the lad has talent. We could keep him around the first team and see how he does. If he doesn’t perform then loan him out for the rest of the season. However can anybody actually see Tony giving him enough of any game time to prove himself and then he’s getting towards 23 with hardly any first team experience.  The biggest concern for me is the type of injury he’s got. Once you do your back it’s not going away.  I’d suggest see what kind of squad we have by the end f the window and if it’s threadbare keep him and see how he gets on. If it has some depth and he isn’t going to play loan him , monitor his progress and see how he copes with his back with week in week out football and assess it on January or the end of the season. If he has the talent he will come back the way Wharton did and if he struggles lower down then he goes with all the others to lower league. 
 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Oldgregg86

[Tom]

7 hours ago, JoeH said:

At 21? I think he was shaky, making mistakes and hadn't at all proved himself. 

At 21 Nyambe had made 97 appearances for us, was a first team regular and earned a new, improved contract.

He had 100% established himself and broke through.

Still raw; maybe but that wasn’t the point discussed.

On Butterworth I remember the last game of the season a couple years back when he and Buckley came on, he looked by far the better prospect then so hopefully he can have a clean run of fitness

Edited July 14, 2021 by Tom

[tomphil]

7 hours ago, JoeH said:

Sanitised kids football did David Raya okay until he was thrown into the deep end, same with Lewis Travis & Ryan Nyambe. Each of them is different and I get that, but in general, I'd say the one's that we don't let go are usually the ones who break in. John Buckley has started to establish himself also and he didn't go out on loan.
*yes Raya went to Southport for a bit, but not for very long, and well before he broke through

Joe Grayson, Tom White, Brad Lyons, Tyler Magloire, Andy Fisher, Sam Hart, Matty Platt, Lewis Hardcastle, John O'Sullivan... loans did nothing for them, and nothing for us.

Loans did quite well for both in some of those cases in reality.

Several of them weren't good enough to begin with for our level you could see that. Loans out all but confirmed it but got some of them noticed and got them moves. Therefore they furthered their careers and we got them off the books, handy all around i'd say.

Also watching the likes of Nyambie and Raya ( who did have a loan out and came back to be number 2)  early doors there was a train of thought they'd have benefited from game time elsewhere.

Maybe would have been less shaky then to begin with, then there is Wharton. One who completely disproves your theory. Or at least it was looking that way.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, tomphil said:

then there is Wharton. One who completely disproves your theory

He made his debut in 2016 and in 2021 still hasn't cemented himself in our team, I'd say sending him on umpteen loans has done him a disservice.

Edited July 14, 2021 by JoeH

[Oldgregg86]

1 minute ago, JoeH said:

He made his debut in 2016 and in 2021 still hasn't cemented himself in our team, I'd say sending him on umpteen loans has done him a disservice.

I think it’s all down to the individual. Some benefit from the loan system others don’t. You could argue Wharton has gained valuable experience but I believe he would of cemented his place and improved more staying with rovers . Yet raya certainly be fitted from the loan system and so did we. Like I say it’s down to the individual if we’re they are at in there careers and how far they have progressed aswell as age/circumstances 

[tomphil]

3 minutes ago, JoeH said:

He made his debut in 2016 and in 2021 still hasn't cemented himself in our team, I'd say sending him on umpteen loans has done him a disservice.

What when he came back looking a better stronger player ?

You are tying yourself in knots you've already said - quite correctly - that some take longer than others. For those who saw him then he wasn't ready certainly not to play in the center back position where strength is an absolute must.

The loans out and rough and tumble of regular football at a lower level look to have done him the world of good.

Time will tell how it pans out obviously, he's had a bad set back but lets not try and write off the loans system just to suit a weak argument. Lads come on at different rates and the real reason more have been kept here over recent years is to fill out the squad whilst not costing a fortune.

That didn't happen to the same degree before the trip to league one i'd say.

 

[Bigdoggsteel]

9 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Each case regarding a loan is individual, you cant take such a small selective sample to prove a point. It depends on a variety of factors, including age, likelihood of game time, position etc. Loads of youngsters have broken through via loans, and loads have done so without. 

@islander200 you mention Dolan but he was 4 years younger, Butterworth has missed so much of his development due to injury. Dolan was also trying to break through out wide where at the start of last season we were short with Elliott yet to sign, starting 4 of the first 5 and only 6 league games after that. Butterworth wouldnt start even if we made no signings before the season as a number 10 with Rothwell and maybe Buckley ahead of him, although I would not allow the loan until we get some bodies through the door ourselves to be fair.

If Butterworth is good enough and stays injury free it doesn't matter what he missed. Some players play non league for years before getting to the top level. The most important thing is he stays injury free from here on in and gets a run at it. It's his fragility that's the worry, not his ability ,if he has it that is. I have seen bits of him and he looks like an exciting player. Reminds me of Rooney for some reason. Looks fearless. Very small sample size though 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Bigdoggsteel

[Guest]

2 hours ago, tomphil said:

What when he came back looking a better stronger player ?

You are tying yourself in knots you've already said - quite correctly - that some take longer than others. For those who saw him then he wasn't ready certainly not to play in the center back position where strength is an absolute must.

The loans out and rough and tumble of regular football at a lower level look to have done him the world of good.

Time will tell how it pans out obviously, he's had a bad set back but lets not try and write off the loans system just to suit a weak argument. Lads come on at different rates and the real reason more have been kept here over recent years is to fill out the squad whilst not costing a fortune.

That didn't happen to the same degree before the trip to league one i'd say.

 

It's not complicated what I'm trying to say. The youth players that are deemed the best at this club very rarely go out on loan. The talents with talent, more or less so, stay at Brockhall to play with the 23's and feature in the 1st team when there's opportunities.

It's individual sure, but statistically, you can see the evidence. The ones who go on loan make it on a less frequent basis. Whether that's correlation or causation is subjective I suppose.

Edited July 14, 2021 by JoeH

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

3 hours ago, Oldgregg86 said:

Having seen butterworth play quite a lot I had hopes of him breaking into the first team. Make no mistake the lad has talent. We could keep him around the first team and see how he does. If he doesn’t perform then loan him out for the rest of the season. However can anybody actually see Tony giving him enough of any game time to prove himself and then he’s getting towards 23 with hardly any first team experience.  The biggest concern for me is the type of injury he’s got. Once you do your back it’s not going away.  I’d suggest see what kind of squad we have by the end f the window and if it’s threadbare keep him and see how he gets on. If it has some depth and he isn’t going to play loan him , monitor his progress and see how he copes with his back with week in week out football and assess it on January or the end of the season. If he has the talent he will come back the way Wharton did and if he struggles lower down then he goes with all the others to lower league. 
 

 

Given the amount of time he was out with the back injury it sounds like it’s a chronic injury. I really hope not because speaking as a fellow back pain sufferer it’s the last thing you want if you’re a footballer.

[chaddyrovers]

9 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

There is a balance in that you dont want to keep hold of too many youngsters whereby they get into each others way.

For example, defensively obviously Pickering should stay as our sole left back, at centre back I would personally keep Wharton and loan out Carter.

In midfield, I would sign 2, I would probably keep Buckley and Davenport who would both benefit from the loss of 4 or 5 in there although maybe the latter in particular could do with some regular game time elsewhere.

In attack, we have Butterworth, Dolan, Rankin Costello and Chapman all of whom need to play game time, with none of them yet fully proven, so it is hard to juggle all of them at once, because we need one or two more experienced and proven options especially now Elliott has gone. I would personally loan out Butterworth who needs game time the most, Dolan himself maybe could do with a loan but I think he should stay for the time being, especially as Rankin Costello needs to cover right back.

Even beyond that we have the likes of Pike, McBride and Vale who all probably are best suited getting a loan spell if possible.

Pickering has nearly 150 games for Crewe and for me will only improve for us by playing here. Agreed with keeping Wharton, Buckley and Davenport here. Buckley should be key midfield player along with Travis this season. 

Why loan Carter out at the age of 21? Surely if he is going to make here it has to be this season? 

Dolan and JRC should be competing for the right side of the attack with each other so why loan either out? 

Why loan Pike out when he is the back up right back option at the club? 

 

[chaddyrovers]

3 minutes ago, Tyrone Shoelaces said:

Given the amount of time he was out with the back injury it sounds like it’s a chronic injury. I really hope not because speaking as a fellow back pain sufferer it’s the last thing you want if you’re a footballer.

did you suffer with back pain in your early 20's

[RoversClitheroe]

6 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

did you suffer with back pain in your early 20's

Yes - slipped disk in my lower back at 22 from excessive exercise.

[Iceman]

That kid Pike is a really good player... 

[islander200]

11 hours ago, roversfan99 said:

Each case regarding a loan is individual, you cant take such a small selective sample to prove a point. It depends on a variety of factors, including age, likelihood of game time, position etc. Loads of youngsters have broken through via loans, and loads have done so without. 

@islander200 you mention Dolan but he was 4 years younger, Butterworth has missed so much of his development due to injury. Dolan was also trying to break through out wide where at the start of last season we were short with Elliott yet to sign, starting 4 of the first 5 and only 6 league games after that. Butterworth wouldnt start even if we made no signings before the season as a number 10 with Rothwell and maybe Buckley ahead of him, although I would not allow the loan until we get some bodies through the door ourselves to be fair.

He can play up front ,he can play either side of the 10.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that he can have his breakout season in the championship with us.It isn't his talent that has been holding him back,not every young player needs a loan move to prove their worth.We have a top academy and I fail to believe we don't have players within it to make a difference in our senior squad.A decision can be made on Butterworth toward deadline day

[chaddyrovers]

27 minutes ago, RoversClitheroe said:

Yes - slipped disk in my lower back at 22 from excessive exercise.

very painful injury.